| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 305 Registered: 9-2004 |
I just read that some "sabbatarians" believe the 10 C's are eternal b/c God wrote them with his finger himself.. It dawned on me that Jesus wrote with his finger in the dirt when the woman was about to be stoned to death.. What are your thoughts on my correlation between the two, if any? BTW, there are some really good threads going on lately.. I feel like I am becoming addicted to the computer! I have to start managing my time b/c I really am getting consumed with this false doctrine stuff.!  | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 224 Registered: 7-2004  |
SDA's have always said the 10 C's are eternal because God wrote them with His finger Himself and because it was written on stone tablets. Writing with His finger is only half of it, so I don't know that drawing a correlation between that and writing with His finger in the dirt would have much meaning for an SDA. They would say there's a big difference between the "permanency" of stone and dirt that just blows away. It would probably be more worthwhile, (if it's even possible to convince), to show that for one thing the stone tablets didn't physically last, and the New Testament has various texts that say it faded away, was abolished, surpassed by the glory of Jesus, etc. It can be shown directly from the Bible that the 10 C's (as part of the Law) was not permanent. What the Bible actually says about the Law (10 C's a part of it) is a better foundation than speculation about how permanent stone is or how permanent something written by God's finger is. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2003  |
I do kind of like your comparison though Tracey. It would make a good snappy come back. :-) Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 470 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, I say that what Jesus wrote with His own finger in the dirt is eternal and we must keep it perfectly! But first we have to figure out what He wrote!  Actually, I think Ellen says what He wrote, although not the exact words. ;-) Heh. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 22, 2005) | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 307 Registered: 9-2004 |
I just kinda was making a comparison of the two writings for conversation wondering how they might be related... Not really to have an answer for SDAs | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 333 Registered: 9-2004 |
Here's an opinion question: What about C and I going to meet with a rabbi, or at the very least a professor of Judaism (we work on a campus) to ask them about gentiles, the nations whatever, having to keep sabbath and second asking them also from a purely educational, historical opinion of Judaic studies if they would categorize the sabbath as ceremonial or moral.. I have to say that we met with a Believing rabbi, who kept sabbath for the reason that it was a forever sign that Israel was to be different or somthing like that from Exodus. He told us that it wasn't necc. for gentiles to keep it but if C wanted to, that was fine. C didn't like that the believing rabbi was so laxed in how he kept it. (He watched t.v, spent 1/2 the day in church, and time with family, games outside with his son) so I think he lost credibility with C. That's why I thought a practicing rabbi might lend credibility. And well, the professor of Hebrew or Judaism would come from a practical point to prove what I know to be true by faith.. Do you think Jewish people would've convinced YOU that you were actually taught wrong? or at the very least caused you to think? I mean the OT is Judaism for goodness sake! Who SHOULD know better?? Tracey | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 276 Registered: 3-2004  |
Years ago I remember taking students to visit a synagogue for a Friday night service. I believe it was Conservative. That rabbi, too, had a very casual view of Sabbath. He said it depended on what you considered "work". For instance one person would consider mowing the law "work" and it would be wrong for him. Another would see it as enjoyable and it wouldn't be "work" nor would it be wrong. His opinion didn't impress me in the least, although he was very knowledgeable. Now, what might have made an impact was if he had explained that the 10 Commandments are never separated from all 613 laws. But again, who knows. I do think that may be something that could plant a seed. How about a non Sabbatarian Messianic Jew and having them explain why they don't keep Sabbath any more? Try this link too: http://www.ariel.org/mshabbat.html Praise God... | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 146 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi Tracey, C might find it interesting, but if he's like SDAs in my experience it's likely he'd say something like "Yeah, yeah, they can say what they like. After all they were WRONG about Jesus so what's to keep them from being wrong on the law as well" or someting to that effect. I wish I could give you a more hopeful answer! helovesme2 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1672 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tracey, I'm afraid I'm not too hopeful, either. Adventists have an amzaing ability to believe they know the TRUE meaning of Scripture and the law, and no Christ-rejecting Jew could possibly be trusted to exegete Scripture without error. I agree with Praise God, though, that if a rabbi were to say that the 10 Commandment s were not separate from the 613, that might have given me some pause--actually, depending upon what point of my experience I was in, hearing a rabbi explain that Sabbath would be different after the Messiah came would likely have caused me to stop and think also. I don't think it would have changed my mind, but it might have given me something to ponder. Remember, Adventists believe they have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people. That "fact" makes their own understanding of Scripture superior to any Jew's. Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 334 Registered: 9-2004 |
Good grief! How could a Jewish perspective/rabbi NOT impact you??? Genesis to Malachi is Judaism essentially. THEY would know their own law.. how arrogant to think you would know better. (not you you. but you as in an SDA attitude) I had tried to bring up the race topic a few months back myself in the SDA in Black and white. C thinks 1/2 the stuff I have learned is taught in white churches and white SDA churches are the ones in these extreme opinions. He said until he read Greg's book, he didn't even know the SDA church thought they were the remnant church and didn't know they taught those that worshipped on Sunday wouldn't go to heaven per se. Unfortunately, i was exaserbated with our talk last night,and said Christ is the center of my life, He is my foundation. YOur center is the 10 C's. Do You even know him that you focus so hard on that?? oops. | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2005 |
With the Adventist blinders on, it is very hard to see anything but the 10 commandments. And I am surprised that an Adventist wouldn't know that they are part of the exclusive "remnant" church! The current pastor of the local SDA churches mentions this in nearly every sermon (along with an obligatory quote from "his favorite author"). In the long-term view, perhaps it was a blessing to us that the current SDA pastor came to this district a few years ago. Prior to that, my wife felt comfortable joining me at the SDA church when a more evangelical pastor was there. After the current pastor came, though, my wife couldn't handle sitting through his sermon and listening to his talk about the "one true church" and denunciations of other Christians. Fortunately, I have done a lot of Bible study and sermon preparation on my own. In the process, I drew a lot from other Christian resources. One of the most significant in my experience was a set of five sermons on Hebrews 4 by Jack Sequeira, now retired SDA pastor, called "Christ, the True Sabbath Rest" (http://www.jacksequeira.org/hebrew07.htm) that explained how the true test of faith was whether we accepted Christ, not whether we perfectly honored the Sabbath. (I presented the series of sermons at a couple of SDA churches in the local district -- the conservative SDAs seemed to only hear the word "Sabbath" and congratulated me for speaking about the Sabbath.) In retrospect, I didn't realize how the message contradicted Ellen White, and it still took me several years to come to the point where I could accept that the SDA church is not what it claims to be. Jack's sermons didn't lead me to a complete understanding of truth, but I think they did open the door for me. Then, I was blessed to read "The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ" at http://www.ariel.org/ff00006c.html by a Messianic Jew. My sister sent it to me a little over a year ago, and I've held on to it and I re-read it whenever I need to focus on the truth. In my most recent sermon in the SDA church where I still hold office, I borrowed from this message and carefully tried to show how the Old Covenant was different from the New Covenant. I say "carefully" because I didn't want to come across as a total "heretic" and thus negate the message, but instead open the door for the congregation for further personal study. But it is so hard to take off the blinders and see the light. Prayers for you, Tracey and C. Cy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 188 Registered: 5-2004  |
I also was ìblindedî by the law as an Adventist. And defended it joyously. I also found that the article on the ìLaw of Moses and the Law of Christî hit me hard as I was processing out. I have that one on my computer and refer to it once in awhile. Cy, I followed your link to the Hebrews study. I must admit, if I had read it a year ago, it would have probably answered my questions and Iíd never have left Adventism. I think itís incredibly well written and very convincing. He is one of the only SDA theologians Iíve read who seem to have a grasp of Hebrew/Greek and isnít afraid to look at context. How did you come to see the Sabbath as unnecessary, or have you? (I canít remember if youíve totally left or not and I know there are several who do still observe Sabbath). Personally, I still feel the weight of evidence bears towards unnecessary, but Iíd be interested in comments on this study. I guess for clarification Iím not meaning tearing it apart analytically. I fully realize he didnít address Paulís other texts in Colossians & Romans. But giving credit where credit is due, I guess Iím more curious about any opinions of his view of Sabbath attached to the Gospel; His obvious belief that Jesus IS the Sabbath; and this comments about Jesus resting on the Sabbath in the grave. And I wonder if from this current viewpoint, thereís an easier journey to viewing Jesus as completely the Sabbath, and the shadow not so imperative. Iím glad that God was able to use him in bring you closer to God Cy, and I wonder if there were some real points that this study brought up to you. Since both my parents and in-laws are pastorsÖhelping them to see Jesus as the Sabbath is very important to me. Even if they only got that, it make it easier on them to possibly see us as right with God, even while not observing the day. Just curious. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 335 Registered: 9-2004 |
WHY IS IT SO HARD TO TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF??? WHO WOULDN'T SEEK THE TRUTH FOR THEIR OWN LIFE?? The World does it all the time! Who wouldn't want to live a life of being secure and sure that they aren't living a lie?? Man has always sought the truth. And it's rejected? or better yet "not relevant" to what *I* believe. How does anyone not want the truth!!!!? | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 336 Registered: 9-2004 |
And thanks for the links by the way.. I remember seeing this article, Cy, last year. I just ordered the full document. Tracey | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2000  |
Tracey, your questions above are entirely logical! However, this is not a matter of mere logic. We are dealing with a Satanic deception that blinds the minds of men and women so that they are unable to see the truth. 2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 4:18 | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 147 Registered: 8-2004 |
Tracy wrote: WHY IS IT SO HARD TO TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF??? WHO WOULDN'T SEEK THE TRUTH FOR THEIR OWN LIFE?? Tracy, but what if they believe that the 'blinders' are 'really seeing'? What if they are certain they already the truth? That if they were to understand anything different that would be turning their backs on God? One of the most difficult things with deception is that the deceived person doesn't recognise they ARE deceived! Thank God that he is so patient with us "not willing that any should perish" even though saving us has been at unfathomable cost to himself! Helovesme2 | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2005 |
Esther, Yes, Jack Sequeira's "Christ, the True Sabbath Rest" does directly (but insufficiently or incorrectly) defend the Sabbath. Perhaps I erred in posting a link to the sermons, since I certainly don't want to lend amuunition to defenders of the Sabbath! I absolutely do not want anyone to stop at that point without continuing on to find the whole truth! In part 2 of the sermons, Jack recounts a classroom discussion about the Sabbath and how Jack's teaching differs from that of the SDA church. That was significant to me and led me to discover the fact that I am resting in Christ every day. As I continued studying, I learned that the Mosaic Law of the Sabbath did not apply to me and I personally began discarding most of the SDA requirements of the Sabbath (but I still love to nap on Saturday afternoon! :-) Now that I've gone back and re-read Jack's sermons in light of what I know now (I haven't read them for at least two or three years), there is a lot of error mixed with truth in that set of sermons. I now have a much better understanding of the Old and New Covenants, how the Sabbath was truly given to the Jews (despite what Jack claims in that no one can show him where the Sabbath is not part of the New Covenant), and how the totality of the New Testament does not apply the Sabbath to the followers of Christ. Jack's sermons totally miss this last point, especially Colossians 2:16-17: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." It is amazing to read Galations 3 and 4, too, without blinders on! Greg Taylor's book "Discovering the New Covenant: Why I am No Longer a Seventh-day Adventist" is a very readable examination of this and other SDA issues that I heartily recommend. I'd like to get Dale Ratzlaff's "Sabbath in Crisis" book; his "Cultic Doctrine" book is a thorough, well-researched examination of the investigative judgement that has powerful implications for the Sabbath doctrine as well. We are now under the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses, and it is clear that the Sabbath belongs to the Law of Moses (as clearly shown in the other link in my previous post). It has taken me a long time (over a decade) to figure this out, and I pray that I do not mislead anyone to be satisfied with wearing the EGW blinders! Cy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 820 Registered: 7-2003  |
B says the law of Christ and the law of God are the same thing...(the law of Moses was handwritten, not the stone version law of God). He says Jesus gave the 10 commandments and that's "his" law. Did any of you have that belief before recognizing two distinctions or did you always recognize a difference? Tracey, broken record here, been there...done that. For me, the more I pushed, the more adamant he became. I don't want to discourage you, but I know I think I pushed so much it became a point of pride for B and even if I did make a point that he believed, he would never tell me. He's taken too hard of a stand against everything I've ever said. Proceed as the Spirit leads, and try to quiet your own heart's desires when the Spirit is speaking.... For me anyway, it was hard to hear one for the other. You're not me, and I'm not making that suggestion. I just see in your stories the same path I've been down. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1675 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great post, Cy. BTW, Dale's book Sabbath in Christ is wonderful. Greg's book is excellent, but Dale's book is more detailed and walks meticulously through the two covenants and all related passages, including the transfiguration, showing how Jesus fulfills all the OT symbols. This new edition of the book (revised since the original Sabbath in Crisis) also includes a section on living in the Spirit as a NC Christian. You would enjoy it and find it really well-researched. Regarding the veil, Tracey--Bob is right. The veil is a spiritual power. It's not something we can "take off". It only comes off when we decide to turn to Jesus and seek Him with all our hearts. Only in Jesus is the veil removed. Most Adventists have trouble turning to Jesus in surrender because they still love the Sabbath/law. The shadow really does take the place of the Real Thing. That's why, I believe, former Adventists have to completely abandon--sooner or later--the Sabbath in order to surrender oneself fully to Jesus without hedging one's bets by somehow treating the Sabbath specially. It's not just about a day; it's about the full commitment of one's heart and mind and life to Jesus. For an Adventist to hang onto the Sabbath while simultaneously embracing Jesus is, ultimately, spiritual adultery. I realize (from years of personal experience!) that this dual commitment can actually continue for quite some time as a person searches the Bible and grows in Jesus. Ultimately, though, when a person really meets Jesus, he must decide if he'll give up EVERYTHING for Him. If not, he has a divided heart. This phenomenon reminds me of what Foreverscout said yesterday in the context of addictions: God never takes away something we don't really want to give up. Ultimately, we have to decide if we'll really commit our all--even the shadow we were taught was the mark of our salvation--to honor Jesus alone and put all our trust in Him. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 279 Registered: 3-2004 |
OK, it's been a long enough time that I've been contemplating it, so I just went to Dale's site and purchased The Sabbath in Christ. It will be handy to keep as a reference plus exciting to see with whom the Holy Spirit would have me share. You are so right, Colleen, about the veil. There is no way I would have understood what you're saying until I'm now out of Adventism and looking back. Things that made little or no sense in Adventism now seem so simple to grasp. It is positively a spiritual issue and can only be understood in light of that. I'm right with you that eventually you will be giving up the Sabbath. That sounds totally contrary to Romans 14, but it's a necessary step out of Advnetism. The denial is so strong that you can fool yourself without realizing it. Not until the Sabbath is totally gone from your life without reservation will you know you are free from the Sabbath replacing Christ. Maybe a few years after that one could return to a Sabbath congregation if one existed without bondage, but I doubt at that point that most formers would be all that interested. It's amazing to see how some things are so similar in what we've learned on our journey out. Praise God... |
