| Author | Message | ||
| Tuart Registered user Username: Tuart Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have been reading messages here avidly for a little while now and am awed by the messages. So many here seem to have such a vast knowledge that I do not possess. One of my quarrels with the SDA's begun with the writings of Paul - and I guess to this day I still have difficulty with his writings in regards to women and slaves. Example - { Ephesians 6: 5-8 : } "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free." { 1 Cor.: 34--35 : } "Women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." My upset and quarrel does in noway extend to Christ whose teachings and life example contained none of the bias contained within the writings of Paul. I can understand the writings of Paul if I am able to put them into a cultural context of "that time" - however if these writings are divinely inspired then I truly struggle! Can anyone help to clarify please? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1271 Registered: 3-2004  |
Tuart, Read the next verses in Eph 6:9 "And master, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their master and yours is in heaven and there is no favoritism with him." Here Paul is telling the slave masters to treat their slaves in the same way. God is watching them and does not have favorites. Col 3: 23 -4: 1 Paul is talking to slave and their masters..."Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving...Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.." Your next verse, it appears, got kind of mixed up and I am not sure where that is found. I have read it, but I cannot find it at this time. Please repost the text. Read all around the text you have in question. Read it in context. The text is much easier to understand that way. In Paul's days there were slaves. That is a fact and Paul was telling the slaves to work like they were working for God and the slave master was to treat his slaves fair because they both had a master in heaven. I hope this helps you. Keep readying and studying the Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you what God wants you to learn and always read the text in question in context. God's truths are awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 254 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Tuart, I'm convinced that some of the admonitions made by Paul were because of the attitudes of his time. I want to share with you something I received in an email this morning: ---------- And all this is what brings us to EasterÖ.And why I wonder if God wasnít tucking away a message for the world in Jesusí interactions with women and their response to him. I wonder if God wasnít saying that here was a group of people that were living out what it meant to become the bearers of the upside-down kingdom Jesus came to proclaimÖa kingdom in which ìthe first shall be last and the last shall be firstîÖa kingdom in which it is ìbetter to give than to receiveîÖ.a kingdom where you ìlose your life to save itîÖa kingdom where ìthe greatest among you is one who servesîÖ. And even though womenís status in the 1st century consigned them to a servant role, these women understood that the real message of Easter was rooted in the condition of their hearts. Those 1st century women were the ones who got that they could CHOOSE to BE servants regardless of the position they were assigned. And even though we 21st century women enjoy a much greater status in the world today, our 1st century sisters would remind us that it is really the status of our hearts that mattersÖ.the status of a heart that has knelt at the Cross like they did, the status of the heart that didnít fear being the first to render service in Jesusí name, the status of the heart that was willing to be misunderstood in order to carry his message, the status of the heart that received the affirmation of hearing Jesusí call a servant-hearted woman by name after his resurrection. ---------- The heart of the above message was that God started the actual story of Jesus with a woman, his virgin mother, and women were at the heart of Jesus ministry, even funding it, and they were the last at the cross and the first at the tomb of the Risen Lord. It is a privilege to serve the Lord, and the people of the Lord. I like the fact that my friend reminded us that the servant's role is a respected role in the eyes of the Saviour. As an SDA I had a problem with Paul too. I think that was programmed in by the SDA approach to the writings of Paul. After all, they speak the clearest of all the NT, other than the Gospels themselves, about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are more disconnects between EGW and the writings of Paul, than any other portions of the NT. That could be because Paul wrote so much of the NT, too. It is funny, though, that once I left the SDA thinking behind I get along very well with Paul, and I'm a woman. He makes recommendations that men should love their wives. He doesn't bother to tell the women to love their husbands, one would suppose because women are closer to understanding the necessity to love in a relationship. Belva | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well said Belva! Dittos as Rush fans would say. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1688 Registered: 12-2003  |
Belva, wonderful post. I agree. Tuart, (and welcome, by the way!), Paul wasn't addressing social issues. As Belva explained above, he was addressing the heart. If one attempts to address social issues before issues of the heart, the effort disintigrates into battles and competition. Only if people's hearts are surrendered to God and they are submitted to being His hands and heart and feet to each other will social issues resolve. Read the book of Philemon (it's one chapter long). Paul doesn't recommend that the runaway slave Onesimus not go back, nor does he ask Philemon to release Onesimus. He does ask Philemon to treat him now as a brother--even suggesting that perhaps Philemon might allow Onesimus to stay with Paul and help him as he is in chains for the gospel. The point is: if Philemon began treating Onesimus as a dearly loved brother in the Lord, he would never be able to "lord it over" Onesimus. Similarly, if women do respect their husbands and "submit" to them, if husbands do love their wives as Christ loves the church, there would be no wielding of power over each other. But you can't put the cart before the horse, so to speak. We can't address social issues successfully if we doesn't address our heart responses to Jesus. The gospel isn't primarily about bettering the world. It's about saving individuals by their becoming one with God. Once we learn to live by the Spirit as a result of our surrender to Jesus, the issues of domination and disrespect resolve. If we humans really took our relationships with Jesus seriously, the world would change. Colleen | ||
| Tuart Registered user Username: Tuart Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 |
Repost - not cut and pasted all that well  1 Corinthians 14 33 - 35 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Thanks for your responses - I have to think before I respond fully. I guess what I am grappling with is divine inspiration - was all that Paul(for example) wrote divinely inspired? If all written is divinely inspired then the truth contained within those writings is an eternal truth. That sounds so hard lined doesn't it - and I am not a hardline person at all! Much of Paul's writing speaks directly to my heart , however there are some little parts that make me feel uneasy. I can deal with that unease if I accept that some of his writings have to be understood within the cultural context of his time - i.e. that women should cover their heads in church - that women should keep silent. Whether one is a good master or an appalling master to their slave seems to be missing the point - from my view the notion of one person owning another is the wrongness. I have no wish to quote text after text after text that is not my object - I know that Jesus is big enough and understanding enough to deal with my questioning. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 826 Registered: 7-2003  |
Welcome, Tuart. Our pastor talked about that passage one time and related it to a modern situation he encountered. He was in Russia one time speaking, and some of the women in the crowd would ask him questions in the middle of his sermon, rather than waiting to talk to him later. He said it was very disruptive to him, and he sensed to the others, as it sometimes took him off down rabbit paths he wasn't going. He says that it was similar in Paul's day. (and I don't know where he gets this from). He said that because of the new freedom many women felt in Christ (being allowed to do things never allowed in Jewish tradition), they would speak up and disrupt messages, creating a chaotic environment. So rather than a cohesive message being delivered, there was all kinds of disorder. Again, I don't know if he got that from the written tradition or if it was conjecture on his part given what the passage does tell us, or what exactly, but it helped me make sense of the context of that passage. Paul wants people's questions to be answered, but in an orderly fashion, not just people shouting out in the middle of church. That's what we do now at our church...people don't just shout questions in the middle of the sermon. Most of us talk it over with our families and if we still have questions take it up the food chain, if you will. I know some people use that passage to oppress women's participation in worship, but I don't believe that is an accurate interpretation of that passage. And I do believe the Bible is the word of God, including Paul. If you don't take it as a whole, I'm not sure how you pick and choose which parts you embrace as the "word of God". God knows our hearts and will honor your attempts to understand and be faithful to your own conscience. He will guide you in his time as you let him change your heart and thoughts to line with his. It's a life long journey, we never "arrive". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1690 Registered: 12-2003 |
I also read Barcaly's commentary on that particular Corinthians passage, and he commented that the admonition to women to cover their heads was being given to a young, recently pagan church in which, apparently, the women were exercising their newfound freedom in Christ by deciding not to wear the culturally mandated head coverings--a requirement only a prostitute would flagrantly disregard. In the context, Paul is acknowledging that the women would pray and prophecy, but he is suggesting that if they expect to be taken seriously they must come to church and dress/behave as respectful women, or they would negate their influence. Paul's message to modern women would be similar--but we would read it in the context of appropriate behavior today--including respect for men. I believe the whole Bible is inspired--as Melissa said, if some is and some isn't, we have no ground of truth. Truth really is not relative, as current philosophy teaches. God is faithful to reveal truth and to change our hearts, and He reveals the seamlessness of His word and His truth over time as we commit ourselves to knowing Him and to learning truth. The most amazing thing I'm finding about Scripture is that it really does fit together and make a complete, unified whole--and Paul is one the most profound writers who helps us see the intimate relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament as well as the reality of salvation. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 493 Registered: 10-2004  |
Tuart, Well Paul claimed to be inspired by God and an apostle chosen by Jesus, so he is either a true apostle or a false apostle. There is no middle ground. And Peter, who was chosen by Jesus Himself, said that Paul's writings were inspired Scripture. (2 Peter 3:15-16). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 28, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2005 |
And just to add to what Jeremy just said, is that Paul claimed in Gal. 1:12, that he received his revelation directly from Jesus Christ. I don't know of any of the other Bible writers claiming this type of authority. Welcome to FAF, Tuart, it's great to see so many new people coming aboard! Stan | ||
| Seekstruth Registered user Username: Seekstruth Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 |
I think it's also important to remember that we will not all understand, all scripture, all the time. The Holy Spirit will bring it's meaning to you when you are ready. Don't let this be a hinderance in your study of the Bible or your belief in the Bible. Perhaps you just need to move on to something else, for now. That has been my experience. I might read something today that I read two years ago that didn't make any sense at all, then all of a sudden I get it! You will too, only it will be in God's time, not necessarily yours! | ||
| Skip Registered user Username: Skip Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2005  |
When we see that Paul had no problem with slavery, then could it be that there are other things that we've taken too literal? Aren't there other things that we are taking wrongly because we've put Paul's words onto concrete. Could there be statements in the old testament, like the admonition against physics that have room for updating? Could it be okay to open that door to the dead just a little when we now know that Paul says they go to heaven at the time of death? Skip | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 348 Registered: 9-2004 |
I'd answer your question Skip, but frankly, I don't know what you are talking about! Are these SDA references that you are making? | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2005 |
Skip, These kinds of arguments are what SDA's use to keep their members from seeking the truth. God has said the people have eyes but can not see, they have ears but can not hear, that the Spirit enlightens us so that we can truly understand. The Spirit of the text is clear, THAT WE SHOULD PUT OTHER'S FIRST AND SUBMIT TO THE RULE OF LOVE. Spiritualism and opening the door to communication with the dead shows lack of faith in God. Obeying a master (or boss) or being courteous concerning other's expectations of gender roles show faith in action. Parsing the Bible, playing with it to get our own outcomes is a lazy trick and a slap in the face to Jesus Christ who gives us the strength to love even when not loved. Lisa |
