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Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 81
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This past weekend, the North Pacific Union Gleaner was delivered to Adventist across the Northwestern US. The lead article was titled Intro to Adventist Church Planting. http://www.gleaneronline.org/100/4/25385.html
When you read the article, thinking with an SDA world view, it seems innocuous. But if you look at the article, with a perspective of a person that is outside the church, with a focus totally on Jesus, the article is blasphemous.

How could we be so blind!

What is so sad, is that Dan Stearns, who wrote the article, is sincere.
Jan
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I could get at that site was the church planting quiz. I would like to read the article, however.
Going over the quiz, an interesting question is #13!
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about the comment in #8 about the Seventh day Adventist church being in existence since the apostles because the apostles and the early Christians kept the sabbath. I would like to read the article also.
Diana
Jeremy
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Post Number: 500
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, that statement is amazing! Here is the quote:


quote:

The book of Acts describes how the first ìSeventh-day Adventistî churches were planted. (Yes, they did keep the Sabbath holy and lived for the advent of Jesus.)--http://www.gleaneronline.org/100/4/25385.html




That sounds like the sermon about God being Adventist, as well as Adam and Eve, that I posted audio clips from.

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on March 30, 2005)
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,
That is what I thought of when I read the comment.
What a misunderstanding of the Bible. It is those EGW filters again. That woman still has an influence after all these years. And I used to be one of those people. Thank You Lord for taking me out and lifting me in your arms. Then you put me here on the FAF and took me to the church of your choosing.
You are awesome.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Richard said (regarding the statement that Acts records the first SDA churches because they kept the Sabbath and looked for the second coming), "Yes, but the Adventist church also has Ellen White." In other words, by claiming Acts describes SDA churches, they're discounting their own doctrines. (And where does it record the churches in Acts kept the Sabbath? The Sabbath is glaringly missing in Acts 15!)

Another thing in that question that bothered me was the inclusion of the Pentateuch as a source of info re: church planting. There were no churches before Jesus. Israel and the church are not the same thing. People became part of the Jewish worship by becoming Jewish through the rite of circumcision and adopting the law. People become part of the church by surrendering to Jesus.

Oh, my goodness--what astonishing claims!

Sigh.

Colleen
Loneviking
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I'm surprised at your comments! There is a large wing of the conservative side that does say that the nation of Israel was the church!

The belief is that there is one eternal covenant with different manifestations. The Noachic, Abrahamic and Sinaitic covenants were just different expressions of one eternal covenant. The Jews were just as much 'the church' as the gentiles are today. This means that the gospel (including dietary laws) preached by the Jews in the Old Testament and the gospel of the New Testament are the same. The emphasis differs, but it is the same gospel.

Waggoner wrote a couple of books that lays out these ideas and they are accepted by several conservative pastors I know. I've also heard these ideas taught at the main meetings over at the Redwood Campmeeting.

What I found interesting about the quiz was the question about what mistakes new churches should guard against. One choice was 'doctrinal disharmony: avoiding the unique message, identity or mission of Seventh-day Adventism'. This, along with the other choices, makes clear that in this conference there isn't going to be much tolerance for anything other than historical SDA'ism. It's interesting that the denomination is really facing up to the issue of pluralism and the response is to head back to the cultic Adventism of old.
Praisegod
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm wondering if they've had trouble holding their church plants into traditional Adventism? There's at least one person at NADAI (spelling?) who reflecting backwards must be a forward thinking evangelist type who really doesn't follow Adventist traditions. And he trains many church planters and theology students, if he's still there.

It's funny, because as SDA I hadn't realized how far out he really was. But not too long ago I happened upon notes I'd taken when he gave a seminar in the local SDA church. His comments were really radical in light of which way the church seems to want to head.

Of course, there are always churches that split off and plant a new, more historic Adventist church because they can't get their way in the original church. I know of one of those and they should be loved by the GC officials.

Didn't Greg Nelson and Shasta Burr start a high profile church plant in Seattle (Gleaner territory) that was the darling of many articles? What ever happened to that?

Praise God...
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loveviking, I understand what you're saying. And yes, there is an "eternal covenant" in the sense that God's covenant with Abraham really IS the new covenant.

I sat with a person a couple of years ago--a former Adventist who embraces the gospel--who said that Israel and the church were one continuous body, that God's has always had His covenant with His people, and while the details have differed, His relationship with them is essentially the same. This person also sees Pentecost as the Holy Spirit providing new power for teaching/preaching the grace of the gospel.

Here's where I really differ with this view. While I agree that God has an eternal covenant with humanity to save us by His work alone, I don't believe Israel was in any sense part of the church. Yes, they were God's chosen people entrusted with the fullness of His revelation up to that time; they were to represent God to the world. But until Jesus died and rose again, they could not be one with Him as people can be now.

Pentecost was more than a "power boost" for evangelism. Pentecost marked the "birth" of a completely new creation: the born again. Since Pentecost, those who place their faith in Jesus and the promises of God are truly new creatures. They have living spirits connected by the Holy Spirit to God and to eternity. This fact is why Paul can say we are now seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6).

The church is comprised of these new creations, these born-again humans who are no longer natural men and women; they are born of God. Romans 9-11 also explains that both Jews and Gentiles now, on this side of the cross, must enter the church--the true Israel of God--by being grafted into the "olive tree"--Jesus. The members of the church are those who are brought to life by the Holy Spirit.

That being said, I do not see a lack of continuity between Israel and the church. Each shows a new, clearer revelation of God and His commitment to mankind. Israel experienced a personal revelation of God that no group of people experienced previous to His formation of the nation. Similarly, the church experiences His revelation in an even more intimate way than Israel did--yet Israel's relationship with God foreshadowed ours with Him now.

I suspect that, if we could see and know eternity and all reality, we would find that our experience with Jesus as born-again Christ-followers (our spirits made eternally alive but still housed in mortal bodies) is still another foreshadowing of our more complete unity with Jesus when our bodies are glorified and we are finally able to see Him face-to-face and know Him as we are known (1 Corinthians 13).

While I believe God does have an eternal covenant with mankind and that He has been in the business of revealing Himself to His chosen people in increasingly clear ways for millennia, I do have a problem with seeing Israel as part of the church. I realize that I'm now picking at semantics (I guess that's the English teacher in me--I suppose I should lay down my red pen!). It's just that the church was something brand new at Pentecost--it was this amazing reality of God in us and the Gentiles and Jews now being included equally in intimacy with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit in believers that was the mystery hidden through the ages (Colossians 1:25-27).

Even the symbolic language of Revelation differentiates between the church and Israel; the foundation of the Holy City is the apostles; the gates are the twelve tribes of Israel.

Israel's job wasn't active evangelism like the church's is. God never commanded Israel to go and make disciples. They were to be a light among the nations; they were to honor God in the face of threat and hardship and personal loss, but personal evangelism was not their commission. TI do not believe that the Pentateuch, as the Gleaner article states, showed the pattern for the church.

Jesus' commission to His disciples was to wait for the Holy Spirit and then to go make disciples. Only the new creations born of God had the personal authority of God in them that could empower them to represent the real presence of Christ in a lost world.

Both Israel and the church are saved by faith. The church differs, though, in literally carrying the living presence of Christ in it--both corporately and individually--as they move in an unregenerate world. This fact of having the Holy Spirit in us is, I believe, the reason Hebrews states that it is a far worse offense to trample the Son of God than it was to trample the law. The Son of God makes it possible for us to know Him personally; we are completely changed by His living in us.

Jesus even grieved over the cities where he had performed miracles without the people responding to Him. He declared that it would be worse for Corazin and Bethsaida in the day of judgment than it would be for Sodom and Gomorrah because if He had done His miracles in Sodom and Gomorrah, even they would have repented while the cities in Israel did not.

Yes, I do believe the gospel has never changed. But I do not believe that Israel fully understood the gospel their traditions foreshadowed. Just as we do not fully understand how eschatology will play out or exactly what the millennial kingdom will look like, Israel's understanding of what the Messiah would bring about was veiled.

The teaching of only one eternal covenant was the teaching that made it so hard for me to see that the New Covenant was truly something different from the temporary Mosaic covenant--even though the Mosaic covenant was related to the new by foreshadowing it.

Now I think I've probably made a mountain out of a molehill--I just find the reality of the church to be so astonishing that I can't say Israel was the church. The precursor to the church--yes. God's chosen people to carry God's revelation of Himself and prophecies of the Messiah--YES! But they were Israel, the church is the church, and exactly what we will be in our glorified state is still partially hidden from us!

The one thing we know for sure is that in Christ we are all one body, and there is no division between Jews, Gentiles, men, women, or people of varied social or economic standings. Through Jesus we are one body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Colleen
Heretic
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praisegod,

I promise that I'm not trying to gossip here, but here's a little of what happened. Greg Nelson and Shasta ended up having an affair with each other and they both had to leave that church. Wasn't it called Anchor Pointe or something like that? Anyhow, Shasta and her husband divorced over it. I don't know what happened to Greg Nelson's marriage, if they're still together or what. I haven't heard about it in a while.
Vchowdhury1
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goldenbear, what really got to me in the link was item #13...
Quote:
13. What are some of the things that should be taught and done in new churches?
a. Sabbath observance
b. Healthful food preparation
c. How to help the needy and suffering
d. How to give home Bible studies
e. Faithfulness in tithes and offerings
f. Dangers of being fashion-driven
g. Carefulness in speech and conduct as a witness
h. Missionary work by every member
i. All of the above

Have you noticed, NOT A WORD ABOUT JESUS...You're right, this is blasphemy. So sad.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 510
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, according to SDA Pastor Richard O'Ffill, the Gospel of grace through Jesus Christ that Paul preached "is not relevant to the times in which we live."

Jeremy
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 120
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, You are on a roll, now. I didn't even know that thread was still active Thanks!
Tisha
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Over on the O'Ffill site LL writes:

"I am happy for you and will continue to pray for you and your friends. LL"

If he truly believes in his "prophet" he would not be praying for us because that would go against her teachings as were are the unsaved. ;>)

I won't post over their because I am not mature enough to not get angry at what they are doing/saying. It is clear that they do not want to honestly debate with anyone with views that are different than theirs. They want a closed group that can pat each other on the back and tell each other they are the "true church" and everyone else is babylon.

All I have to do is compare that forum with this one, and it is clear who has the joy of Salvation and the Peace that only the Holy Spirit can give. I'm sure anyone lurking can see the difference also!

I admire those of you that have the courage and Grace to post over there. May God bless the work you are doing.
Skip
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Post Number: 24
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vchowdhury1 wrote:

"Have you noticed, NOT A WORD ABOUT JESUS...You're right, this is blasphemy. So sad."

That's how we grew up SDA and didn't know WHY Jesus had done what He did. He wasn't the focus of what we did on Saturday at all, it was all about Ellen. And the deeper we got into EGW the less we knew about Him. She had a way of making him abscure so you didn't know the reason for the plan, when it was all right there all along. I called her my "EGW Filter" because once you've got it on, you can't see the Light.

Skip
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skip,
EGW was my "filter" or "glasses" also. Thank God He took them off of me and I have seen the Light, Jesus Christ.
He is awesome.
Diana
Riverfonz
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those traditional SDAs, would love to have us kicked off, so they can read EGW quotations to each other--How exciting! Stan
Goldenbear
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Jan said, there was only a quiz. You know the two comments that really hit us was the fact that the early church was Adventist and what we had to teach in planted churches is everything about our outside but nothing about our insides.
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I have read what is on the R/S website I see that more has been written and "discussed" when the FA people went on the site to support God and quote the Bible. Look at the other discussions and you will see maybe 1-2 pages where everyone agrees with each other and write nothing more. What more can be said when everyone agrees??? Personally I like a good discussion, even if I do not agree. I will not debate or be contentious, but will say what I believe, as I have seen each of you do.
Keep up the good work for all you posting on R/S. God is with you and directing you what to say. If every so often your humanity shines through, God understands.
I love each of you.
Diana
Pheeki
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my opinion, SDA worship a day and a woman. I know that sounds harsh but from personal experience I know it to be true. What is the first thing the pastor says up front every week..."Happy Sabbath", "Aren't we glad it's Sabbath" and I even heard one say "We would self-destruct without the Sabbath." What should be said is "Aren't we Happy in Jesus!" "Aren't we glad we have Jesus!" and "We would self-destruct without Jesus!"

You might hear a mention of Jesus somewhere in the service, but he is not the main focus. BTW: Pray for me, I have to attend my in-laws ultra-conservative SDA church tomorrow. I am doing it for my husband because a bunch of his family is in town and they want us all to be together there. I am even making my daughter skip her track meet. I know I will sit there and grind my teeth! The last time I went, some old lady got up to give testimony and went on and on about how fortunate we were that God gave us the 10 Commandments and she even called in to a radio show and promoted them, mainly the 4th...I was just flabbergasted. No mention of Jesus, yet again.
Tracey
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No words about Jesus and certainly no words on Love. Disgusting.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praying for you, PHeeki.

Colleen
Seekr777
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic, I'm not sure of the order of events but didn't Shasta move to S. CA where I think she was in Ministry?

I'm not sure about details.

Richard

rtruitt@mac.com
Randyg
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Pheeki,
When I go to a church where I am uncomfortable with the message I do one of two things. I will read through my favorite chapters in John, Romans, Galatian,Colossians, etc. It is a great opportunity to focus on what Christianity is. The other diversion is to read through the wonderful sermons in the hymnal such as Amazing Grace, Blessed Assurance,Redeemed,Christ the Lord is Risen Today, etc. It is strange how we have sung the words for so many years and never heard it preached. These are some ideas for those requiring dissociative techniques to help keep from screaming. Leaning on the everlasting arms,
Randy
Bob
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Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you have not read it yet, the essay "I HATE THEOLOGY" by the Internet Monk is, in my opinion, is a "must read" for all of us on this forum!

http://www.internetmonk.com/hatetheology.html
Ric_b
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Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Randy,
Been there, done that. Many times. It is a great way to make it through an error-filled sermon when standing up and walking out would cause too much strife within your family.

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