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Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I attended a bible study last night on Colossians 3.
The discussion revolved around how to avoid the things that belong to our earthly nature. It was stated that our salvation is not affected if we do any of the things that Paul mentions, i.e. sexual immorality, impurity etc. Salvation is by grace.

How do you explain 2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." There is also Revelation 20:12 where it states the dead are judged by what they have done.

I didn't read the above verses until this morning, and I am struggling with how to incorporate them into my Christian walk. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks
Freeatlast
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Post Number: 327
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, Scripture teaches us that there is no condemnation for the believer, and that we do not come into judgement with regard to our eternal salvation. HOWEVER, do not be deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that will he also reap. There are consequences to sin, and those are not (necessarily) done away with when our eternal death sentence is done away with in Christ. I believe that is the appropriate way to apply the text in 2 Cor 5:10.

In my personal Christian experience, I know that I am saved to the uttermost, and have eternal life in my possession TODAY. On the other hand, the sins that I have committed bring consequences to me every day I dwell in this body of death. What goes around, comes around, so to speak...

The text you quoted is a warning that we don't get away with anything sinful. The chickens come home to roost.
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom,

The Revelation 20 text is talking about the Great White Throne judgement, which is only of the wicked--not the saved.

The text in 2 Corinthians 5 is talking about the judgment of rewards. It has nothing to do with our salvation or getting into heaven.

Paul talks more about it in 1 Corinthians 3.

"10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB.)

Hopes this helps somewhat, and I'm sure others will give more detailed responses.

Jeremy
Seekr777
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy can you give me any more details on this passage. I've struggled with this passage in the past and would appreciate any further thoughts you might have.

"10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB.)


Thanks, Richard

rtruitt@mac.com
Jeremy
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Post Number: 507
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, I don't know if I understand the passage completely myself, but tell me what parts you're struggling with, and maybe I can answer your questions, or if not someone else can, perhaps.

There was a discussion about this passage a couple months back, which may be helpful to you also. Here is the link: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2669.html?1107924108

Jeremy
Tisha
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Username: Tisha

Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have questions about this text (1 Cor 3:10-15 NASB) also. I have been so blessed to KNOW that I am saved. I've sort of ignored this text because it confuses me. Now I'm ready to take a closer look at it. When it says-

"14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will recieve a reward."

Will that be over and above being saved? Will some people get more of something than others? How does this work? Will there be "haves and have-nots" in heaven? When I look at this with my humaness, it seems like a class system. I do trust that God will be fair and that we will be content and know that all is right.

Then there is -

"15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

I don't understand that part. It says I will be saved. That's good, I get that part. But then it says I "will suffer loss" but be saved "as through fire".

I would think I would feel suffering because of that. I don't believe there will be suffering in heaven. Yet, if I don't suffer then what would be the point of it all?

Do my WORKS here on earth really gain me something in heaven? I don't want to go back to a works oriented theology, but it sure sounds that way in this text!

HELP!!
Freeatlast
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Post Number: 328
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have my disagreements with Hank Hanegraaff, but I do love the way he allegorically explains this passage.

When a house is burning down, people inside get whatever is most valuable and run out. Photos, heirlooms, etc. - those things that have inherent, permanent, irreplaceable value. Others run out with nothing more than the singed clothes they are wearing. Both people got out alive (salvation) but one made certain to take care of those most treasured possessions before escaping the fire (rewards). Both people are kept alive, but only one has something to have long after the fire has gone out.

Another way Hank describes it is like appreciation for music. One who has no musical training can certainly appreciate a beautiful symphony, but the one who is formally trained and has spent his/her entire life studying music gets much more out of the symphony. So it is with our ability to appreciate our Savior's merits throughout eternity.

What we do here has eternal consequences. Only those things that are stamped "in the name of Jesus Christ" (the foundation) survive.

The book of Ecclesiastes is brimming with this concept. All our efforts and labors are futility, vanity, and "chasing after the wind" unless they are done for God. Only those things that are connected to God ultimately mean anything.

These explanations work very well for me, at least until I hear a better one.
Tisha
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Post Number: 22
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, you posted just before me so I missed reading your post first. Thanks for the link to the previous discussion. I'm still not sure I really understand it all though. In my sinful, human nature I want to understand all this! But I do know that I am saved, I trust in God's justice, and can leave all the rest up to Him - Praise the Lord!
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard a most wonderful talk at an Easter chapel about this passage a few years ago at the school where I was teaching.

While we don't know exactly what the rewards will be, it seems likely that they are related to the implication in the parable of the three servants who were given talents when their master left town. The two who invested their talents (possibly read that the gifts of the Spirit) were told they would be put in charge of many things because they had been faithful over a few things. The suggestion seems to be that God will appoint people responsibilities in the Kingdom of Heaven according to their faithfulness to Him in their lives.

Rewards cannot be salvation--salvation is a gift, not a reward for faithfulness. Rewards seem to be responsibilities God will grant to those who have been faithful to do the work He gives them to do.

The woman who gave the talk explained the work of the Spirit by saying that whatever God brings into the life of the Chrinst-follower is the work of the Spirit. She said she finally realized, when her children were young and she was a new Christian, that changing diapers and raising her children was the work of the Spirit that God had given her to do at that time. The nature of the work is not what counts; our faithfulness to say "Yes" to Jesus when He places His work in our lives is what matters.

The speaker gave the example of J. Vernon McGee who has been dead for several years, but his taped sermons and his Bible commentaries are still widely circulated and influence many people. McGee's commentary on Scripture is one of God's gifts to the modern church, and, this speaker suggested, God will reward McGee not only for what he did in his lifetime but for the lasting effects for the sake of the kingdom that his writing has had even after his death.

When we do work that is not of the Spirit--in other words, when we pursue our own ideas of what God wants us to do without submitting our plans to Him and waiting for His blessing and equipping, that work will not yield the fruit for the kingdom that it would yield if it were God's appointment for us. OUr job is to be faithful to do what He has put in our lives. Our job is not to insist on accomplishing our lifelong dreams necessarily. We do the work of the Spirit when we allow God to bring us His responsibilities.

It is that work--the work of God--that will yield rewards in the kingdom. Work that is not of God--that simply fulfills our own dreams and is not necessarily yielding lasting results for the kingdom--is the work that will be burned. It will not last, because it did not produce eternal fruit. The Christ-follower who performed those works will still be saved, but his work will not last.

It was a completely new idea for me to realize that salvation was not the "reward" Paul was talking about. Salvation is a given--rewards are granted by God according to our faithfulness to Him as we live our lives.

It's all about surrender and submission to the Lord.

Colleen
Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore

Post Number: 256
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 4:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Matthew Chapter 24 beginning with verse 45 through 51, this tells me that some "servants" will will be assigned a place with the hypocrits.

Please read and tell me your thoughts on these verses 45-51 or from the beginning of this teaching in verse 36-51.

"He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrits, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" spoken by Jesus Christ. verse 51

Now to me being a "hypocrit" must mean that one is professing one thing and acting quite the opposite. I can't read my dictionary at this time. It is my understanding also that Jesus is speaking of Christians in these verses because in verse 42 Jesus says "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day YOUR Lord will come." (emphasis mine).

In Matthew 25, after the parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of the talents we see the "Sheep and the Goats" teaching.

Verse 34-46 we read:

"The the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

vs 35: "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

verse 36: "I needed clothes and you clothed Me, I was in prison and you came to visit Me."

verse 37: "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?

verse 38: "When did we see You a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe You?

verse 39: "When did we see You sick or in prison and go to visit You?

verse 40: "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.

verse 41: "Then He wil say to those on the His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

verse 42: "For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

verse 43: "I was a stranger and you did not invite Me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after Me."

verse 44: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thristy or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help You?

verse 45: "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

verse 46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I see our Faith as an active Faith, not just a professed faith.

Thoughts?

Love in Christ.

denise
Denisegilmore
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Post Number: 257
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 5:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are saved by Grace yes.....But it is THROUGH FAITH. Without faith, Grace does us nothing.

Faith in the Faith of Jesus Christ. His Gospel... and His teachings to us to follow as followers of His faith.

Jesus's Teachings on what active faith is are in the above verses. Feeding people, giving people water, or clothing, visiting them in prisons and hosptials--these are activities of faith that directly deal with our salvation. Yes? No? It appears to me they deal with our salvation.

My understanding on the above verses tells me that "to not do what is right is sin". And all Christians who are truly born again, know what is right or not right because God Himself gave us the Holy Spirit AND His Word. We have no excuse.

Even the unbelievers know most of those basic needs and they help others in those very areas that many Christians feel are "too political" or too "self willed" yet Jesus is telling us to do them. So we ought to do them. Not wait and pray about these humanistic needs of others. It's also known as "love your neighbor as yourself."

It is my opinion that there are far too many Christians waiting around for some sign from God of what they should be doing and yet God has left us His Word that gives us instructions on what we should or should not be doing. This isn't hard to figure out.

How many here for example believe that homosexuals should continue rebelling against God until they recieve some sign from God that they are to do otherwise? Or do we instead point them to the Word of God?

I look at "works" as not only believing but following the Teachings of Jesus Christ that are written in a book called the Bible. And yes, I believe a Christian can lose their salvation. That is, in my opinion, because with all their professing to be a "Christian" they did not follow Jesus Christ's Teachings. So their sincerity isn't very real, just superficial. Matthew 24 and 25 show that very clearly to me.

And while all of us will fall on our faces in being genuine Christians, we are to continue to press on and fight the good fight. I abhor the teaching that we are to be sinless in order to enter His Kingdom for clearly that is impossible otherwise the Son of God, Jesus the Christ, would never have had to die in our steed.

But to sit around and do nothing, waiting on some sign is utterly ridiculous when there are needy people all around us. The fields are ripe for harvest. God gave us spiritual eyes to see those needy. It is usually our own mis-perceptions or rebellion to rationalize not doing anything on the basis that it's political or carnal and all the other reasons I keep hearing from Christians who only want to go around saying "Praise the Lord" and "God Bless you" instead of actually giving people a reason to "Praise the Lord" and begin to "bless" others by their good fruits from this same Gospel and Teachings of Jesus Christ that they "heard and SAW" in us.

Did all that makes sense? And any thoughts or comments are surely welcomed. This is a good topic for all.

Thanks in advance for clearing any misunderstanding I may have in understanding what the Bible says and also for the answers to some of my questions.

It is very hard for me to formulate what is in my head and put these thoughts into words..so I'm praying all the above made some sort of sense.

Love in Christ.

denise
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Denise, I understand what you're saying. Our good works are the fruit of our salvation. We do not assure our salvation by doing them.

Jesus transforms us and through us ministers to the world.

Colleen
Skip
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom wrote:
"How do you explain 2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." There is also Revelation 20:12 where it states the dead are judged by what they have done."

I think you're right in your thinking Busymom in that we've all got to face the music when the time comes, but it's with the "protection of" the cross that we'll face our past.

What I don't think will be protected under that, will be the deliberate sinning like EGW did when she stole the writings that she sold as her own. Unless she gets off on grounds of "diminished capasity" or something like that, she's toast. And yet I read a letter sent to Proclamation! by an Adventist who seems to be saying that God showed EGW where to steal her stuff! I just can't imagine God needing to find a prophet that still had to swipe the writings of others to fill her books! So there must be some form of "judgment" that is final and just in God's eyes.

Skip
Agapetos
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Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Without going into stuff too much, the way I've understood the eternal side of this is as follows:

1) God is our very great reward, and
2) We are judged by one of two categories of deeds -- ours or His

It's seen in the final judgment in Revelation 20:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books... If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev.20:12,15)

In this passage, there are basically two types of books mentioned:

1) the book of life
2) the books of our deeds

If we're in the book of life, we've simply let Christ clean us with His blood:

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God" (Heb.9:14)

"Through the obedience of the one man [Christ] many will be made righteous." (Rom.5:19)

And so we have "come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God... to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven." (Heb.12:22-23)

Like some have said, in life we have consequences for our actions, but the Cross teaches us that we don't have to be afraid of them. Just like Onesimus returning to Philemon, we don't have to be afraid because we have an Advocate in heaven, where we are already seated with God in Christ.

In that sense, "facing the music" is always redemptive for us, and we needn't be afraid of it because God will redeem every bad thing in our lives.

Good deeds are great, wonderful, and a kind of testimony or crown for our lives. But then again, what does it matter? We'll cast our crowns (all the good we've done) at His feet, because compared to His work and His person, what are they worth?! (^_^)

The proper perspective is seen in the order of Ephesians 2:8-10. First Paul lays out that we're saved by grace, not from ourselves, not by works (good or bad). We are God's worksmanship, and we are created to do good works which He's prepared in advance. Having been saved by grace, we now have the freedom to do good works without them being the criteria which jeopardizes (or secures) our salvation. In a nutshell, we're free to do good now for the sake of others, instead of worrying about our own sakes.

As for the list of our transgressions in the "other" books... well, they have been forgiven, the standard having been nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:13-14). And at what a price! It was not a list that was nailed to the cross, but a Son...

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