| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 295
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 11:28 am: |     |
Speaking of God and our country, did any of you hear/see Reagan's funeral at Washington Cathedral today? I was overwhelmed that God used this occasion to clearly state the gospel to the world. The service was Episcopal, and the officiants did not modify any references to Christianity. The rector who gave the homily said he would declare the belief of "this church" that there will be a resurrection. There was a liturgical prayer or reading that included the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit by name, and referred to believers as those saved through faith in Jesus and who are the "mystical body of Christ on earth." It also proclaimed that salvation is by Jesus' eternal blood of the covenant.
After the homily, two tenors sang Amazing Grace--all verses--accompanied by an orchestra. It was absolutely powerful.
President Bush even said that through his last years, Reagan "saw darkly," but now is seeing his Savior face to face.
I was overcome by the clarity of the gospel and the essence of Christianity that was not watered down and made to be inclusive. God in his sovereignty uses unexpected times--such as this one of international attention and mourning--to have people declare reality and truth clearly and globally.
Colleen |
Debbie
Registered user
Username: Debbie
Post Number: 68
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 5:52 pm: | |
Colleen,
Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the funeral. But yes, what you said about the Reagan funeral is a reminder to me that no matter how dark things may get, God is still sovereign and in control.
Debbie
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Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 96
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 6:53 pm: | |
Debbie,
I agree with you 100% I have read a lot of this guy's posts and he seems very grounded. With the Passion and different things, God is giving a huge wake up call, I feel.
And Colleen, I saw almost the entire funeral. I was at work and we have TV's in the rooms (I'm a dental assistant) I was praising God all day. They said the Name of Jesus without hesitation several times and I felt the whole time that God had really used President Reagan throughout his whole life for His purpose, right to his death.
So timely I felt that the nation would be witnessing this testimony of a believer in Jesus and the influence his life had for the good of the world.
I thought how Jesus must have had His hand on Mr. Reagan's shoulder, looking down at the outpouring of love and respect and sure that he heard those words, "Well done My good and faithful servant."
It was very moving. Hard to choke back the tears.
I was so young when he was president, it's good to hear all of the stories of his life now. James Dobson devoted his show to him most of the week, replaying interviews and recalling the good he has done. His son said that he didn't attend church while in office because he was afraid it would put people in jeopardy and that they would focus on him and take the focus off of God but he counted the months until he could return to church.
He was a blessed man. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 8:33 pm: | |
I did not get to see the funeral service in Washington, DC but I did get home in time to see all of the graveside service. While the oldest son was saying he wanted to see his father in heaven, I was thinking that if I were still an SDA I would be saying, those poor souls, if they only knew the truth. But now I am rejoicing with them.
The service was very touching and I sat in front of my TV with tears streaming down my face.
I was also thinking, thank God I know what the Bible really teaches about death and the soul/spirit.
God is awesome.
Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 10:11 am: | |
It was indeed a Christ-centered, homecoming celebration for our former President. I am grateful that the SDA Senate chaplain, Barry Black, didn't show up reciting his infamous, Christless prayers. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 599
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 10:52 am: | |
My mom told me Barry Black did have the opening prayer. She seemed personally proud of the man, if you know what I mean. Did anyone on this board hear his prayer? If so, what did he say? It seems to me that whenever someoe who is SDA isfamous for doing something good-like Barry Black being the Senate Chaplin or that fellow who is the neurosurgen over at John Hopkins who isfamous for seperating conjoined twins, etc., the SDA church as well as the SDA individuals sure do whan to make it well known that the person is SDA. It almost seems to me to be a bit overdone as a way of saying to the rest of Christianty, "Look at us. See, we aren't totally weird. See, we have wonderful people in our ranks who are so humble that they offer their help to even people who are not one of us". Just an opinion. I have been glued to Fox News this entire last week. It's hard for me to figure out but for some reason the death of President Reagon has been very hard on me emotionally. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 91
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
Susan,
I may have missed the opening prayer. Chaplain Black indicated in a Washington Post interview, many months ago, that he would NEVER use the name of Jesus in his public prayers.
Perhaps someone can inform us about the content of his prayer at the funeral in Washington, D. C.
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 603
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 9:39 pm: | |
Is there a web address that I could read the transcripts of the funeral service? I asked m mom if he prayed in the Name of Jesus or in the Name of God, the Father, The Son amd The Holy Spirit and she said she didn't pay any attentiion to that. But that it was a nice prayer asking God to be with the mourners. She then said as sentae chaplin it is approiate to have generic prayers to God so as to not exclude the Jews. I just don't understand the SDA's fixation on Jews. Christians are Christians. They are no more Jews than are Buddhists or Hindus. |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 81
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 6:46 pm: | |
Since Sabra posted the word from the worship leader Iíve been wanting to respond. Debbie, Iím in agreement with what you said on this one. Over the very short time Iíve been on this forum, listening and reading archives, I can sense that one issue that gets us as ìformersî is a knee-jerk reaction to EGW and prophecy. Weíve had such a bad-taste of legalism that weíve really thrown the baby out with the bathwater. It seems that we need to examine carefully what the New Testament says about prophecy.
First a personal story: I was attending a conference where there was a time that you could receive personal prayer and ministry if you chose to do so. You signed up and were placed with a team or a single person. They brought in spiritual leaders from some other nearby churches. I signed up and was sent to a group with only a single leaderóa youth pastor who had come just for the time of ministry. We had never seen each other until I walked into that small group.
This man proceeded to give me a ìword from the Lordî that was so dead-on accurate that you could have knocked me over with a feather. He immediately saw ìdenominational baggageî and that this had had a tremendous hold on me until recently but there were still things clinging to me. He proceeded to talk about my giftings accurately and the entire thing was like someone who knew me intimately all my life. This was taped and I transcribed it and it amounts to two pages single-spaced.
We had been told that at the end we could ask one question for clarification and I told him that he was totally accurate except that I had walked away from the church over a year ago and was he seeing the past. He told me it wasnít totally from the past and that there were still things clinging to me. Interestingly, when we were done discussing that question, he admitted that he had no idea what denomination he was speaking about so he asked me. It brought a smile to his face when I told him and he realized that he had been used to bring me a blessing.
I went home and over the next month prayed about it and thatís when I wrote the final letter requesting my membership be dropped, knowing that that was a cord that connected me. I had known from the first time of sensing through the Holy Spirit to ìfade outî that he would make it clear when I needed to submit the letter. And he did in a dramatic way I never possibly could have guessed beforehand. Oh, and I even showed it to my SDA pastor and he believed it to be an accurate word from the Lord.
If we look at scripture we have to realize that Paul speaks very strongly about prophecy.
1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. NASB
14:39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. NASB
KVJ says ìcovet to prophesyî in verse 39
Too many of us feel that prophecy has to be condemnation and judgment because of what we got from EGW. We believe it has to be spooky and weird. I believe if we are hearing from God for ourselves then we can certainly hear from God for others if he chooses to use us to bless them. Thereís no need to call yourself a prophet or go around pronouncing in solemn terms a ìthus saith the Lordî but we all really should be prophesying IMHO.
1 Corinthians 14:3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. NASB
Or as NIV says, ìspeaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.î
I believe we probably all have had situations where the Holy Spirit has brought someone to mind and we feel impressed to give them a call right then. We speak words of encouragement as the Holy Spirit directs. And they often say that they know it was God who told us to call them right then. I assume Iím not alone with this am I? Granted there are some really weird people out there who want to call themselves ìprophetsî or claim they are hearing from God, but we need to examine what people are saying.
Sorry this is so long but I wanted to lay out my complete thoughts before asking for feedback from the rest of you.
Praise GodÖ
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Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 1:02 am: | |
Praisegod,
I agree with you. It is clear from reading the New Testament that there should be prophetic ministry under the new covenant (e.g. Acts 2: 17-18; 11: 27-30; 13: 1; 15: 32; 19: 6; 21: 8-9, 10-11; 1 Cor 11: 5; 12: 10, 28; 14: 1-33, 39; Eph 4: 11-13; 1 Thess 5: 19-21; 1 Tim 1: 18), but it is also true that there are a lot of wackos out there that give it a bad name :-)
It seems to me the problem is that people ignore the very clear instructions to TEST all prophecies, given in e.g. Matth 7: 15-23; 1 Cor 14: 29; 1 Thess 5: 19-21.
There are two ways of ignoring the instructions to test prophecies. One is to "swallow hook line and sinker" everything that a so-called prophet says, even if it conflicts with the Bible. It appears to me that SDAs (and Mormons, JWs, and others) fall into this category. The other way is to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and deny that the prophetic gift still exists, and to assume that any prophecy must automatically be false.
The correct path, as is often the case, is to steer a middle way between the two extremes.
God bless,
Adrian |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 8:08 am: | |
Thank you Praise God and Doc for your posts. You both blessed me this morning by what you posted. As I have mentioned in another thread I have been worshipping at a church that is charismatic since leaving the Adventist church. The Pastor has been giving a series on the gifts of the spirit. Yesterday he asked if people wanted to come forward for prayer that they would be filled with the Holy Spirit. I know as an Adventist I had not been leading a Spirit filled life, guilt is not one of the fruits of the spirit. Also, my husband of nine years has always told me there is no point in going to church as people act one way when they are there and different when they leave. So, I went up for prayer because I know I need to let the Spirit lead in my life, and haven't. When the pastor prayed for me, he mentioned that he sensed I have the gift of prophesy. At the time he said that, I was thinking okay, whatever. I did feel very peaceful after praying.
Here in New England last year there was a situation where someone in a church received a prophesy that a mom should stop nursing her baby and feed the baby other things. The baby died from malnourishment. So, I have been cyncical about prophesy. But, the idea we can be lead to strengthen, encourage, and comfort others makes perfect sense to me. I had decided that God would never tell us something that would hurt others i.e. the baby situation. I would agree with Adrian that any prophecies would agree with the fruits of the spirit, gentleness etc. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 349
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 9:36 am: | |
Both chaplains (senate and house) did an opening prayer when Reagan's body arrived in the rotunda to lie in state. I did not hear him (Black) pray the day of the funeral itself, but think the prayer your mother may be talking about is that one. I don't remember the words specifically, but it was generic language (definately no mention of Jesus). I was waiting for a soul sleep reference but there wasn't one. I missed the California services, but thought the DC services were powerful. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 350
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 9:45 am: | |
Busymom, I have also been told i have the gift of prophecy, but that truly prophecy is proclaiming the truth of God's word. (I did one of those "tests" and that's where it landed). As it was explained to me, I could see myself in there. I do have an "obsession" with purity of scripture and understanding what God's word means and says to us. I don't like confusion or "comfort words" as one friend called it to ignore poor doctrine (such as when a loved one dies and saying how they are looking down and so proud of xyz...that's as unbiblical as soul sleep...). Prophecy is not necessarily about predicting the future, but about proclaiming the truth of God. That changed my perspective of the spiritual gift of prophecy and what it meant. (a very brief explanation of what I heard of that gift...). |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 325
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 11:25 am: | |
The thing I remember from his prayer is he said...
"Help us to see thee more clearly, follow thee more nearly...etc." he was quoting that 60's song. Was that from Jesus Christ Superstar?
I don't remember if he mentioned the Trinity or not. Seems like he said "Father". |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 302
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 12:11 pm: | |
I might be wrong, Pheeki, but I think the musical those words are from is "Godspell".
I agree with Praisegod and Doc above. The gift of prophecy is clearly one of the gifts of the Spirit for the church. I do believe, though, that the NT is quite clear that Jesus was/is the final revelation of the Father, so we can expect that today's gift of prophecy will be for the edification, growth, and support of one's fellow brothers in Christ. Prophecies of future events, etc., seem suspect to me. My personal conviction is that the Bible has given us all the details of the future that God wants us to have in advance, enough so we recognize things when they happen and are not confused, but not specific enough so that we become fixated on events.
Prophecy, at any rate, should serve the purpose of upholding the centrality of Christ and the truth of His word. Sometimes that may come in the form of someone's saying something to me that I need to hear for my own discipline or for building my trust in Jesus. Sometimes it may even be God revealing something hidden to one person uniquely in a position to help an erring brother or sister to repent.
I know godly man who was pastoring a church a few years ago, and the church was struggling financially. One night this man had a dream that a board member had stolen the new water heater he had recently donated to the church, and the pastor realized why God was not able to bless the church. As he wondered how to proceed with this information, he dreamed again about the upcoming board meeting. (I must interject that this pastor is not known for charismatic manifestations; he's logical, careful, and not driven by emotion.) In this dream, he saw the board members seated in a circle. The next evening before the meeting began, he sketched the circle he'd seen in his dream and wrote the names of the board members in the positions he had seem them in his dream. Then he put the paper in his desk drawer as an objective "control" against which to check what happened that night. Those board members came in and sat exactly where he had seem them sit in his dream.
The pastor spoke to the member in question privately and told him he had to remove the water heater and return it. The man, whose work environment had made the theft possible, was not willing to return the water heater. He stpped attending church, and finally the pastor removed the heater himself and had it delivered to the man's home.
That pastor does not habitually receive dreams, etc., but in that situation, God showed him what he needed to know in order to remove compromise from his church.
The only concern I have about prophecy and all spiritual gifts is when they become the object of desire and focus instead of Jesus and His truth. The Spirit testifies about Jesus, not about Himself. But clearly the spiritual gifts are for the church.
Colleen |
Debbie
Registered user
Username: Debbie
Post Number: 72
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 6:55 am: | |
I Like what Pastor Greg wrote today in his Daily Devotion. He speaks of "Fearing God." But he reminds us that the fear of God has to do with respect and reverence and not a fear of punishment, because there is a lack of reverence of God in the world today, particularly by many supposed "people of God.
This subject really ties in with what we've been discussing these last few few days, I believe.
So below is the devotion as printed at www.harvest.org for 6/16/04
Debbie
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Wednesday, June 16, 2004
Fearing God
"They have no fear of God to restrain them."
Romans 3:18
I think there was a time in history when God was misrepresented as a divine being who threw lightning bolts down from heaven on people who displeased Him. We've heard derogatory references to fire-and-brimstone preaching. But I don't think this is the problem today. We don't hear that much about preachers delivering fire-and-brimstone messages anymore.
What we do hear are messages about how we can be successful. We hear messages about how God will prosper us. But it is more rare to hear about a holy God who wants us to repent of our sins and walk with Him. That is not very popular anymore. In a way, I think many people have come to develop a new God, an all-loving, benign being who is hovering up there in the universe. If that is your God, then I'm sorry to tell you this is not the God of the Bible. That is a god of your own making. Without question, the real God is a God of love who loves you deeply. But the real God is holy. Not only should we love God, but we should also fear Him.
What I mean by "fearing God" is not necessarily to be afraid of Him. It is to have a respect for God, a reverence for Him. One of the best translations of the term I have heard is, "A wholesome dread of displeasing Him." I think this is lacking in lives of many people today, and sadly, even in the lives of people in the church. While it is true we will stand before a God of love one day, it is also true that we will stand before a holy God. So, we need the fear of God.
Copyright © 2004 by Harvest Ministries. All rights reserved.
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Debbie
Registered user
Username: Debbie
Post Number: 73
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 7:08 am: | |
Now again, I realize this probably sends shivers down a few people's spines. But the bad kind of fear that is spoken of in the above post is mentioned in the bible as occurring when a person is afraid of being punished (which is typical when a person is trapped in a legalistic system or way of thinking):
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18
I don't know the original Greek, but I would venture to say that the English words we use for "fear" are not based on the Same Greek words in Romans 3:18 and 1 John 4:18. Anybody out there know Greek? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 344
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 8:13 pm: | |
In both texts mentioned the transliterated word is "phobos". It means: panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror. In the NASB tranlation it is translated as:
cause of fear (1),
fear (37),
fearful (1),
fears (1),
intimidation (1),
respect (1),
respectful (1),
reverence (1),
sense of awe (1).
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