| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, To keep from pouting because of the fact that my friends are enjoying a FAF meeting and I'm not, I decided to start a new thread. LOL! If I remember correctly, EGW was not high on politics. I really don't know if this was more of an offshoot thing or if the mainstream SDAs also have vote-aphobia. This is the way that I remember the whole political thing. We as the remnant, chosen people were to keep ourselves separate from the world in all things. Jesus was coming soon, therefore, we need not concern ourselves with worldly things such as even thinking of being a public servant and even voting. The idea was that if we were to vote for someone and they made a decision contrary to our belief, the Bible or EGW, we were/would be held accountable to God for their choices. Soooo, the best thing to do was to leave ALL political things alone. We were to be on the mercy of the OTHER voters to make the decisions we were to live by. Really safe, huh? After I left the SDA church at 18 and left basicly all religion, the hardest thing for me to do was to "register to vote" because it was "wrong" to vote! I didn't have a choice, because my husband at that time was running for an office! Were any of you raised with that view on politics? Now to why I'm bringing this up. I truly believe that the biggest reason that our country is in the condition it is in, is because the Christians "slept" through the election days starting in the 50s. This includes the SDAs. Our parents didn't encourage us to become Christian public servants or even to exercise our constitutional right to vote. We didn't encourage our kids to vote or get into that awful arena called politics, did we? We have instead, pointed out how crooked ALL politics are. (Please understand that I'm generalizing) I agree, politics is a dirty thing, now. It wasn't like this years ago. Why? Christians have gone to sleep on their duty post. There seems to be a big move out in the evangelical world to train up strong Christian young people to get into that political arena to try to influence against some of the horrendous decisions going on. California had some pefectly awful things slipped in some months ago that hopefully will be struck down. Vermont is dealing with an issue now that could impact the family as we know it. Fortunately for us Formers, the rest of the Christian world is spear heading an assult on the "bad" laws that are in or on their way in. I am continually amazed at some of the awesome Christians we have out there right now, Steve Largent for one and Roy Moore for another. These guys make an impact in the political world everyday while so many of us sit home on election Tuesdays. I have only felt this way for the last couple years. I will encourage my kids to consider public servanthood. It's a tough world to be in but the tough armour of God can protect all who honor and trust him. So, the bottom line is. Our Christian "Father's" made it possible that we could be a free people, so, with the way things are looking out there now, we need to start thinking seriously about not sitting at home but voting our conscience when the time comes and encougaging other's to do the same. By the way, did you know that all but 3 of the constitutional signers were Christians? I certainly hope this falls within the scope of this forum, because I'm really serious! Maryann | ||
| Lydell |
Very good Maryann! It all comes down to the Golden Rule really, doesn't it? If I know that one of the issues on the next referendum is voting to legalize suicide at the hands of doctors and I know that my neighbor has a child who is suicidal, then one of the least of the things I can do to love my neighbor is go and vote against that stupid law. If it is likely that the person presently in office is going to remove all gates at railroad crossings and I believe it is important for the safety of people for those gates to remain in place, then it is my responsibility as a part of loving my neighbor as myself to vote to get that guy out of office. (And my son reading over my shoulder would have just said, "For crying out loud mom make that into two sentences would you?! Give 'em a chance to breathe already!") It's like the whinning we are always hearing about how our society has changed since "they took the prayer out of schools". It's bunk. The ruling for no public prayers in schools came AFTER our society had already changed. That change came as a result of just what you are talking about. Christians had backed away from being involved in politics. AND, more importantly really, they had backed away from their personal responsibility of training up their children in the Lord. I suspect the subtle mindset had worked in that "well, if I don't pray with the kids before they leave for school that's okay because they'll pray at school anyway". And the idea that they didn't have to teach their kids that God created them because the teacher would do it. Wrong. Funny isn't it? The SDA's are so hot and heavy about carrying the full load of personal responsibility for sin, but then refuse to carry any responsibility whatsoever for the condition of society around them. Curious. It's a bit like Ellen White's stand on labor unions too. Sure, there was some foul stuff going on with the unions back then. However, you are back to loving your neighbor as yourself. If your boss doesn't care a flip about safety on the job, and you are to care about your coworkers safety, then the union is often the way to effect permanent change. | ||
| Lynn W |
The Adventists have books out telling people how sinful it is to get into politics in any way. But notice they have a whole branch called "Religious Liberty" devoted entirely to fighting the "Sunday Laws" through politics. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi guys, I got to go after some more questions in regards to politics. This has a strange twist. On March 8 President Clinton sent Congress a bill to approve Permanent Normal Trade Relations (PNTR) for China. Permanent NTR would offer China open access to Americaís markets, and yet Chinaís government continually commits gross violations of human rights and delivers unveiled threats to the United Statesí national security. These next comments will be from memory. I can produce the exact wording and figures if needed, later. 56% of all women world wide that commit suicide are Chinese. Hundreds of Christian leaders are rotting in Chinese prisons. If some one needs a liver transplant, the Chinese government will find a match from some prisoner in for some petty crime or simply being a Christian and will shot him in the neck, harvest his liver and send to who ever put up the $30,000 to $50,000. In recent years in Tibet alone, they are responsible for approximately 2 million Christian murders. So, what's this got to do with with the price of tea. First off, this is horrible. Horrible for the Chinese government to be doing. It is horrible that our own illustrious Clinton is trying to make trade relations with China a permanent thing, with NO recourse and NO one to answer to. Now that I drug all this up, my point. In the Christian world, people like Chuck Colson are being ground up and stomped on by the SDAs on 3ABN (and I'm sure many other mediums) for supporting the Christians. Why? The majority of the "Christians" being imprisoned and murdered are the (shhhhh) Catholics! I know that Hank from CRI is a bit soft on the Catholics. He says that Catholics have Christian roots. That there are many wonderful Catholics that he is confident he will enjoy heaven with. He also says there are some very serious theological problems too. And if some of these problems are not resolved, at least with the church members, there could be some serious eternal consequenses. He talks about so many Catholics (and I've heard some of them) that love, trust and believe in the Lord. Now, these SDAs are aghast that Evangelicals should pray for these mark of the beast, pagan, murdering, sunday law passing, heretical Catholics. I have a problem with that. Are the SDAs crossing their fingers and hoping that maybe the Chinese (among others) might cut the Catholic population down? And that in turn slowing down their power to pass an international sunday law? Are the Catholics Christians? Should we pray for delivery and mercy on them as well as the Protestants? Are the Catholics God's children, their sins paid for in full on the cross like any other human being? Is Revelation talking about the Catholics? It could just as easily be talking about the Chinese. Winston Churchill, in the 30s tried to warn the world about what was fixing to go down with Hitler and Germany. What is going down now has some of the same ear marks. WDYT? I don't know the exact figures, but it appears to me that in recent years it hasn't been the "POPE" that has murdered millions of Christian people, it's been some of the Eastern religions and Germany under Hitler! Yet, the SDAs dare not cast a vote! LOL Every one of us needs to call our State Reps/Senators to yell and scream about not allowing China permanent normal trade relations! WDYT? Did I dig myself into a hole this time? I really want to know if y'all think Catholics are Christians and if their safety should prayed for? :-) Maryann | ||
| Lynn W |
Q: Do I think Catholics are Christians? A: As a denomination, I think their hope is in works, the Pope, Mary, etc., not Christ's finished atonement. As individuals, anyone can be saved, sometimes in spite of their own religion, not through it. Q: Should we pray for the salvation AND the safety of Catholics? A: MOST DEFINITELY. Now let me get this straight - SDAs say we shouldn't pray for the Catholics in prison because they're Catholics??!! How very Christian of them - NOT!! Was Jesus kidding when He said "love your enemies"? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lynn and Y'all This brings up another question (off politics) that I've been thinking a lot about. HOW CAN ONE DECIDE WHO FITS IN THE CHRISIAN CATAGORY WITH OUT BEING JUDGEMENTAL?? I have an Aunt that was raised, like Mom, in the SDA church. This was her ONLY exposure to Christianity as a child (12 years old on). This SDA stuff was tossed as soon as she left home. Over her life time she wanted NOTHING to do with SDAism! I'm not sure when she got involved with the Salvation Army, but when died at 78, she was invololved with them and it was the S.A. that did the service etc. As a 12 year old, I'm sure she accepted the Lord thruogh SDAism. This is all she knew. I can assure you that what she acceptd was through FEAR. Stuff like, "If you do such and such wrong, GOD will drop the tongue of a wagon on you!?" :-( I'm guessing that as an adult she wanted very little to do with a GOD that would drop a wagon tongue on her for her "sins". If she accepted what ever the S.A. had to offer (which I have no idea as to their theology), is she saved. She lived a "good" life. Raised her girls morally. Withstood a non-christian marriage. What you were raised with molds your idea of God. Does God understand that you had a "sick" view if Him. Does He accept a "fear based belief" of Him. Now I have a bit if a disagreement with BMorgan as to the authourity we are under. I agree that we are under the authority that the police, parents, govenment etc. Under the authority of a "pastor", I have a problem with. Remember back to when you have heard about SDAs questioning their pastor about,(in our cases) the Sabbath, Invest. Judgement, EGW. If we stayed under their authority, we wouldn't be where we are today. We would have had to "obey" and stay away from "all" heretical stuff. Maybe I have a "bad attutude" about pastors? I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE ALL AUTHORITY! In fact, I think of a church sort of like a restaurant, if the food is bad, I feel "NO" compulsion to keep going back for more (or to tip them)! That pastor of the Baptist Church I tried to go to some years back, has "HIS" congregation under his authority and "RULES" them with an iron hand. I got kicked out because I couldn't/wouldn't accept his authority. Most of us got into the "rut" we were in by accepting "some" pastors authority. I just thought of something. If we "do accept their authority", and they give us bad food, and back it up by saying that THEY "have Bible based authority", (you know, scare us) who's fault is it that we suffer from "food poisoning" all the time? What's the point of a shepard if "we" can't trust them and they lead us astray? Now, taking a chance of wearing out this subject. There are 3 boys, now dead from auto accidents, that I want to tell you about. All were raised in the same SDA offshoot manner like me. Boy 1: There are 2 people in this entire world that if you look up "Christian Perfection" in the dictionary, you would see their faces and he was one of them. I'm serious. He never strayed from God/religion all his life. He was 24 in 1983 when he got killed and one of the few kids I was raised around and was like a brother to me. He was very serious about religion, God, living a Christian life etc. He shared his faith in a most wonderful way, by example. He believed in God, Salvation etc. to the best of "his" knowledge. He, like the rest of us, was under the thumb of EGW/SDA colored theology. HE WAS DOING EVERYTHING TO THE BEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING A THE TIME OF HIS DEATH! Is he saved? If Jesus paid for "ALL SINS", do you suppose that since he DID believe, did his belief covered the sin of not fully understanding and believing in the "totally finished" work of Christ on the cross? So sadly, boy number 2 was his brother and like a brother to me also. He died at 27 in 1988. He was not the easy to raise boy that his brother was. At about 16, he tossed religion. He lived it up for a few years. At maybe 24, he "came back to God". It was the same religion he had tossed earlier. He was put under such guilt over the fact that he left and lived so wickedly that I truely believe it snapped something in his head. He was never the same again. His eyes showed a hopelessness to a degree that I had never seen before. He lived in such despair. I have the privaledge of having both boy,s Bibles and I am near tears when I read the notes in it (boy 2's). He is just screaming out for help and peace. He WAS doing the very best he could with the guilt that was being heaped on him from those in Biblical authority over him. He was doing the only thing he was conditioned to do. It was like there was no choice for him. Does God undertand? Is he saved? He believed! But like his brother, he didn't believe in the "totally finished" work of Christ because he COULDN"T. How could they? They were very forcefully taught other wise. I sort of feel like if God doesn't understand and they aren't in heaven, I don't want to go. (Now I'm sinning by questioning God :-( ). Those were the only children in this family, so sad. Maybe God took them because "HE" did understand and wanted them to be with Him because they were so special to Him. This is what I choose to believe. Boy 3: I did not know him very well as he was a baby when I tossed religion. He was 25 last year when he got killed. He, like the rest of us was taught EGW/SDAism. To the best of my knowledge he believed as a child and teenager. At 18 or so he went into the military. I'm surmissing that religion got tossed at that time. He married and had children. To the best of my knowledge, he never came back to the Lord. Soooo, does the fact that he was in what "I" believe to be a "wrong theology" based religion, keep him from being saved even though he believed when he was a kid? I want to say, yes, he was saved. He had a "wrong" view of God! He believed with the knowledge he had though! When he was old enough to make a choice, he tossed the only God he knew. I believe God understands. So, should we place ourselves so completely under the authority of preachers or others that may lead us astray. And if we do, does God still accept our sincere "mislead" belief? With so many points of view out there, how are we to know we are being led right? We all thought we had truth? We all were sincere! PLEASE come back with your comments, all of you. Maryann | ||
| bruce H |
Maryann What you are talking about is the reason I left the Adventist Church. Ellen White teaches both works and grace she teaches it both ways, but mainly works, I call this bait and switch first you get them in with grace then you hit them with works and Ellen White. You just kind of hope that maybe they did here the Gospel and accept the free gift. When I became saved God showed me how dangerous this is. It is like playing Russian roulette, lets see which story my child believes. I honestly believe Adventism hase TWO objectives. Objective number one- prevent the person form being Born again, from accepting Gods free provision for us. Objective number two- (This is for those few that have heard the gospel from somebody hidding in the church or maybe they read the Bible one time, and accepted God seal of the Holy Spirit) To prevent the Holy Spirit from transforming the believers Life and those around him. These I believe are the only function Of Ellen White's writings. I would not worry about the three they will have a fair judgment by a rightious judge who knows what is best for all of us. No we are not to place ourselves so completely under the authority of preachers the Bible forbides this. We are anly to be under Christs authority. About irresponsible Shepherds read Ezekiel 34, all of i | ||
| Steve Pitcher |
Hi Maryann and Folks, I got this from, believe it or not, an SDA book about the difference between Clergy and Laity. It was clearly stated and well documented with scripture that the Laity IS the Clergy. (I don't think the book caught on as well as it should have.) In like manner, the Clergy is part of the Laity. As Christians, we do submit to one another, out of love, knowing that each is looking out for the best interests of the other. After all, if we are Priests and Priestesses under Jesus Christ, then there should be no holding authority over someone's head. As for those three men, they were young. I've learned that I really look at things much differently now that I'm (over 40) older than I did when I first came to Christ at the age of 17. I don't believe that God needs to reconstruct how someone would have lived to determine if that person eventually would have come to the point of full understanding of the Truth, although I've heard that taught. They were definitely above the age of accountability, whatever age that might be. God will judge in mercy. If someone is raised in an Agnostic home, such as I, and was killed at a young, but "accountable" age without ever being sure that God existed, would that person be judged for that? Or are people judged for knowingly rejecting Christ and His complete sacrifice? If someone is never taught that Christ's sacrifice is complete for all sins, past, present, and future, is that individual responsible if s/he never comes to fully believes that? We have been told to take the Gospel into all the world. Paul says, "How will they hear without a preacher?" (Don't know the reference.) Is a person responsible for bad preaching/theology if that's all they've been told? If that individual, through study and further teaching, learns more of the Grace of God but rejects it, that person is in danger of rejecting God. But if a person only hears bad theology, will that person be held responsible for that bad theology? There are many in SDAism that have learned bad theology. I am one. But now that I am learning about the Good News of the Gospel and the Grace of God in Jesus Christ, I am responsible for changing my beliefs. If I had died before I learned this, would God judge me to Hell for it? I don't want to second-guess God. Of course, it frightens me because my children are in SDAism and there's not much I can do about it. (There are some subtle things that I do, but I can't overtly tell them what the real problems are until they're older, and start having those "tough" questions.) Mormons who believe that they will become as God is, and that God was once as we are now (a teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) is actually going against the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon teaches that there is only one God, contrary to the Mormon "prophets." (BTW, I'M NOT SUGGESTING TO READ THE BOOK OF MORMON, I'M JUST USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE. THE PEDDLERS OF THE BofM WILL LEAD YOU INTO SOME AWFUL DOCTRINES, WORSE THAN SDAism.) But as an example, a young Mormon who reads the BOM and then goes on to believe in a multiplicity of Gods is rejecting what is revealed in one of their own scriptures. For SDAs, the same is true. After we learn the Law, the Investigative Judgment, washing our "character" robes, if we come to a knowledge of the utter absence of salvation in the Law and realize it is in Christ alone, we will be held responsible if we reject that. But what if, as Maryann suggests, we never come to that realization. Are we lost? I just read Matt. 18, about the little children. There is a great truth there. He was telling us adults that we must become as the little children. These young men in their teens and twenties are still trying to become adults. Is God going to judge someone who hasn't matured enough to the point of becoming like a little child? A little child trusts God for EVERYTHING. An adult wants to hold onto some things. Perhaps there's a middle place for those individuals in these stories from Maryann. I don't know where that middle place would be. Is there a "Middle-place"? Maybe it's kind of like a teen learning how to drive. Although they're fully in control of the car, the adult is there to grab the wheel if need be. Maybe those young men were at the wheel of their spiritual beliefs, but God was ready at any time to grab the wheel if He needed. Well, as you can see, I have no answers. But am definitely looking for the same answers as posted here. Looking forward to hearing more on this. Steve | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Steve! It's good to hear from you! You and Maryann raise a good question--one I often ponder and which I don't feel I've completely answered. I wonder, for example, if people who have never heard of Jesus (or who have heard only of a perverted Jesus) might be living in a situation similar to Old Testament people who did not have a risen Christ and the Holy Spirit. Many OT people were saved by their faithófaith that God would keep his promises, faith that a Redeemer would come, faith that there was an ultimate Truth in the universe. Abraham, for instance, was a moon worshiper when God summarily called him to leave Ur and become the father of His people. God would not have called a moon worshiper to be the father of His chosen people if that moon worshiper lacked integrity or a heart for Truth. Paul says in Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesóhis eternal power and divine natureóhave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Every human being has evidence of God, and every human being has a deep longing for God, for Truth. The dead soul that is the natural state of man leaves a void in a person. We were, after all, created in the image of God, and without a living soul connected to him, we are incomplete. I really don't know exactly how God judges the condition of a person's belief or unbelief, especially when that person has never been shown the true Jesus. I believe, though, that God knows which people are responding with integrity to the ubiquitious evidences of truth. I also believe that God understands and expects us to question the inconsistences we see around us. Doubt and questions do not threaten God; people with integrity persist in searching for Truth. When Jesus healed the man blind from birth, the Pharisees asked whose sin was responsible for his blindness: his or one of his parents? Jesus replied that neither was the case, and he made it clear that God does not punish us for our parents' sins. Our parents' sins, however, can give us a completely false picture of God. And God, I believe, understands that. He also sends people and evidence into our lives so we can rearrange our understanding. In short, I'm not sure how God decides whom to save. But my best understanding is that God will indeed save some who did not know about Jesus. I also believe that those he saves will be people who acted with integrity and had a heart to discover truth. And all who are saved, even if there are some who are saved by faith in a God they may not have had a chance to learn about completely, will be saved because Jesus died for them. I don't mean that I think people will be saved because they are "good people". But I do mean that I believe God may save some who were true to the God they knew. The bottom line for me is: I believe God is calling us to Truth. He is calling us to grow, to examine our beliefs, to allow the Holy Spirit to pull away the veil of sin and error, and to walk in the freedom of the gospel of grace. I have to trust that He will deal with those such as the three boys Maryann mentioned with grace and Truth as well. God is a God of mercy and also of justice. He will not overlook unbelief. But I have to walk completely by faith when I consider what will happen to people who believe in error. Only God can know if a person has shut himself from "God's invisible qualities" that have left us all "without excuse". Once again, truth is a paradox. But I'd rather live with paradox than with a limited God! | ||
| Maryann |
Colleen, Steve and Bruce, I didn't realize till just now how deeply and emotionally I feel about those boys. I can't hardly see the keys for the fogged up glasses. (now you know I hunt and peck):-( Jesus DID die for all their sins as well as everyone elses. Belief V Un-Belief is the line in the sand. In my opinion from deeeeeep in my heart is that boy 1 "believed" in a God he loved. Boy 2 "believed" in a God he was scared to death of and boy 3 HAD "believed" in a God that he decided he didn't want to serve for reasons only he and God knew. All three were honest in their decisions, I think. Then it comes down to trusting God, doesn't it. Trusting to see Boy 1, Boy 2 and Boy 3 in heaven one day (and my Aunt)...........Maryann | ||
| Richard Drew Fearing, Jr. |
Maryann, You raised a very intersting question about SDA's and voting. My parents are SDA's and they have always voted. I attended and graduated from an SDA college; Columbia Union College. While there I heard a sociology teacher teach, based on the writings of Ellen White, that a Adventist should only vote on issues of temperance and religious liberty. I personally disagreed with his position. Richard | ||
| George |
To you all, I personaly believe, if we are doing the best we know how, we get E for effort. Other wise, He wouldn't be a God of love. Would you do any different with your kids. In the story where it talks about a father not giving a snake to the son, and that God treats us even better, I think we have the answer. George | ||
| Lori |
I was a fourth generation Adventist and I never heard that we weren't supposed to vote, my family, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.... always voted! That's one I hadn't heard before. Wonder if it's a regional thing???? Have any of you read the rebuttal from the Adventist concerning the 50+ 'allegations' against EGW writings and the teachings of the Adventist church? They have a website now that gives their answers as to why Ellen White only 'appears to contradict scripture'. I believe the website is www.ellenwhite.com | ||
| Lori |
The correct web address is http://www. ellen-white.com | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Richard Jr, It appears to me that the position you disagreed with was, limiting your voting to temperance and religious liberty? This is so foreign to all the teachings I remember. Lori also says her famility etc. voted? I don't think it's regional. I was raised in part, a stones throw from Lori's area? Sooooo, this goes back to a question I asked last month. How many of you were raised "offshoot/self supporting SDA" as opposed to "mainline SDA"? I have recently asked about voting and it is something that JUST ISN'T DONE. But, these are more the offshoot variety SDA. Let's seriously get some responses as to whether y'all were offshoot/self supporting or mainline SDA raised. Okay:-) I have seen your name before. Are you a former? Like to hear more. What's your 2 cents worth on the "Once Saved Always Saved" thread? Maryann | ||
| Richard Jr. |
Maryann, Yes I disagreed with the concept that we should limit our voting to temperance and relgious liberty issues. I was raised in a "mainstream Adventist" home. As a remember both of my parents voted as well as most of their Adventists. Instead of using the phrase "once saved, always saved," I prefer the phrase "once saved, always certain." I am not a former, however I am a former SDA pastor. I am new at reading FAF Online. Please be patient with me. I am in a learning mode. Richard Jr. | ||
| Richard Jr. |
Maryann, I want to correct "As a remember," to "As I remember both of my parents voted as well as most of their Adventist friends." As you can see I am definitely in a learning mode. Richard Jr. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Richard Jr, Don't worry about the mistakes, as you cruise through the site you will find plenty of ours. I'd corrected your mistakes while reading the sentences, you'll get good at it too! That is a very interesting variation of once saved always saved, "Once Saved, Always Certain". That sort of takes the stigma off that, "heathen, mark of the beast phrase." I'll bet you have an interesting story. Would you care to share it with us? Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
Maryann I was a mainstream Adventist, you know the once saved trying to stay saved one. But know I am in the Body of Christ and very very very very secure. By the way Richard Jr. I would like to here your story also. Bruce Heinirch Here does anybody remember the Mission Spotlite picture shows, that is my great Uncle, I have Adventist Pastors on both sides of my family, as well on my wifes side of the family. BH | ||
| Colleentinker |
Welcome, Richard Jr.! Did your parents used to be in the Oregon Conference? I'd also like to hear your story. What led to your leaving the pastorate? By the way, Bruce, I agree: now I am very, very, very sure I am saved! Praise God! Yes, I remember Mission Spotlight. Was your uncle the one who developed/produced them? |
