| Author | Message | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 |
My church is going through a long, drawn out process, the conclusion of which is that we are not allowing Theophostic prayer to be used here - mostly due to the extreme Calvinistic thology and some disturbing issues with the training materials. It will probably get ugly when this decision is announced, since there seems to be a sort of cult-like devotion (at least that is what is going on here.) Any others have experience with this? Marcell | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 113 Registered: 1-2003  |
Marcell, does the following link explain it well? http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Theophostic+prayer&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dff46e7f682df0587%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3DTheophostic%2Bprayer%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.theophostic.com%252Fdisplaycommon.cfm%253Fan%253D3%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResults%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theophostic.com%2Fdisplaycommon.cfm%253Fan%253D3 Richard | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1805 Registered: 12-2003  |
Marcell, I'm not familiar with theophostic prayer. I did go to the link Richard provided above (thanks!), and while initially the wording seems "logical", I find it "feels" more like a movement to me than simply someone's experience with effective prayer in his/her own life. I'm frankly leery of prayer formulas or "movements" teaching effective prayer. I'm leery not because movements never teach truthful ideas but because the method becomes almost a goal, a requirement in people's minds. For example, I remember when Glenn Coon was popular with his seminars on the "ABC's of Prayer". Besides the fact that his "formula" now seems manipulative and unbiblical, I remember being quite convicted that I needed to incorporate all three elements of Ask, Believe, and Claim when I prayed. If I didn't, I might be short-changing the answers to my prayer--or worse, perhaps not taking God seriously or even taking Him for granted. I'm becomiong convinced, the longer I pray and the longer I live, that God is faithful to answer the prayers of sincere hearts. As far as emotional pain creating blocks to effective living goes--I know that phenomenon is real. I've also experienced God being faithful to reveal the things to me that have been emotional blocks when I've prayed to know what is true, to know what I need to know, to change in ways I need to change,to bring the mentors or events into life that I need, etc. I'm not saying the principles of theophostic prayers are necessarily wrong--I haven't read enough to form a firm opinnion. I just know that God doesn't need us to pray in any particular way apart from the models in the Bible--and those are varied and cover a wide range of needs. The Lord's Prayer itself incorporates praise to the Father, prayer of confession, spiritual warfare, prayer of request for personal need, prayer of spiritual protection, submission to God's will, and acknowledgment of God's eternal sovereignty. Sometimes I believe God does lead us to pray in certain ways for the needs in our lives, but I believe He is faithful, through the indwelling Holy Spirit as well as through His word, to direct us to pray according to His will and in ways that bring us to places of surrender and submission to His healing, His discipline, and His will. Just my thoughts about it. Colleen | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2004 |
The issue we have come up against isn't the 'center' of what is called Theophostic - asking Jesus to reveal truth - but the training materials and the theology of Ed Smith are cultish, and seem to create an almost blind devotion. It is, to me, the spirit of witchcraft to believe that there is some 'magical' formula to prayer - of course they never use the words 'magical' or 'formula'!! I trust the Holy Spirit to lead a surrendered heart in prayer, so I get real suspicious when someone has a 'new' way of praying that they think is going to do something nothing else ever had. That is basically Ed Smith's proposal - that all his previous counseling and prayer only provided 'tolerable recovery' for people and that God 'revealed' this new way of praying to him. Well, guess what that reminds me of? hehe. Especially suspicious is that he has tradmarked the term "Theophostic" and all the (expensive and very involved) training books, videos, conferences etc. Here is a direct quote from his book "Beyond Tolerable Recovery" regarding demonic activity that made my skin crawl: "God permits and sometimes apparently suggest they (demons) attack us to point out the areas from which God wants to free us." And that's just for starters. I feel this is a dangerous 'ministry' and has caused much damage and grief here - and the fruit will turn out to be rotten elsewhere, given time. It is a really large growing 'movement' - I want to caution people who run into it to be on guard. Marcell p.s. Colleen - I am not sure how to start a new 'topic' -can you help me out? " | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1810 Registered: 12-2003 |
Marcell, you're right; this is "hocus-pocus". The merchandising of this "method" is also suspicious. To start a new thread, you can click on "last day" at the bottom of this page. Then, click on "discussion" and scroll to the bottom. There you will find a "start new thread" button that is written in white letters on a blue background, as the buttons are below. Click there, and a new discussion box with a box for a thread name will appear. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2001 |
I have never heard of the ABCs of prayer, but I have heard of the ACTS of prayer, and I think they are very practical. Adoration Confession Thanksgiving Supplication In that order. I am always a little bit suspicious of acroynms and alliteration, esp. in sermon points, because I wonder if the best word was sacrificed for the acronym or the alliteration. In this case I think it works, except the word "supplication" is a tad archaic, unless you are a regular reader of the KJV. Alternatively, Hannah | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2005 |
Some days when I pray, I just pretend God or Jesus are walking with me (if I'm walking) or washing dishes with me (if that's what I'm doing, etc...) and I talk to Him just like I'd talk to you if you were beside me. I ask Him how his day is going, tell him what awesome scriptures I've discovered, tell him about the stress of keeping up with the pace, etc.... I ask him to forgive my anger, my selfish use of time, etc.., I ask Him if thereís something I could do that would help Him out right now. I tell him how much I appreciate His Spirit in my life, .... there's no formula, only a friendship that I could never do without. I love what Mother Teresa said one time when asked how she prays.... she said she just sits and listens. When asked what she hears she said God is just sitting and listening. I know that's not word for word, but basically challenging us to be ok with the quite Spirit between God and I and allowing a space for Him to get through to me How much He LOVES me, which empowers me to change the problem areas in my life. People make up formulas when they don't know how to love and don't know how to be loved. Simple as that. Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1813 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hannah,I also think the ACTS model of prayer is practical. I don't see it as a requisite formula at all times or hear anyone "marketing" it--one thing it has done is to make me more aware of praising God, especially in public prayer. The ABCs of prayer was a big craze in Adventism during the late 60's. (I know, you weren't even born then!) Sigh. Laughingly, Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 209 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have found the ACTS model very helpful. I first saw it presented in a book by James Montgomery Boice, the late great Presbyterian pastor. But this Theophostic stuff, is just recycled "psychobabble", that keeps surfacing in a lot of different ways, as if there is some magical formula by which we can have some closer relationship with God, and in a way more superior to those who are not using it. Stan | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 504 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hello all, I use to post here frequently, and come back to lurk from time to time. I thought I'd provide some clarification of the TPM. The Theopostic Prayer Ministry is a means of healing past hurts. It is conducted under the guidance of a trained lay person (they are careful not to call it counseling). It is primarily directed at survivors of child and sexual abuse, but is allegedly applicable to all. It is based on the assumption that we have believed lies that continue to keep us in bondage--even when we intellectually know that they are not true. It starts with the lay person asking the Holy Spirit to take the "victim" back to the source of the pain. The victim is to allow the Holy Spirit to take them back to the painful event. Once there, the layman asks the person iif they can see Jesus there. The idea is that the person realize that they are not alone, and were not alone, even in that dark moment. The originator of this technique (I cannot remember his name)professes to have seen God instantaneously heal hundreds of people from these memories. He claims it is strictly the work of the Spirit, and that the lay person is simply a conduit. Here are the problems I have with it: 1. It is usually conducted for a fee--essentialy paying someone to pray for you, if in fact there is no theraputic value. 2. The originator has copyrighted the technique, and anyone using the name must be trained by him personally, or through his video tapes (which cost money) 3. It is based on the idea that our problems are based on believing a lie, rather than our inherent sinful nature. It suggests that were it not for that lie (i.e. I am worthless, or it was my fault), then we would be okay. 4. The originator puts down traditional counseling methods, and suggests that they deal with the cognitive, and that God only deals with our emotional side. 5. It appears to be a formula prayer method, like Colleen suggests. 6. It is dangerously close to "recovered memory syndrome." I do not think that a "lay person" should be dealing with issues of this nature, if they have not had training in helping an individual work through them. The principles sound plausible, until you look deeper. Many of us have issues from our past that we need to deal with, but this technique seems cto be based on a fad, and potentially exploits hurting people. The name comes from the name "Theo," which means God and "Postic" which means "light." Thus it is literally God Light Prayer, or God shining his Light--the Light being Jesus, on our hurts. Going back into lurk mode. Doug | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 201 Registered: 7-2000  |
This "prayer method" is frighteningly familiar to the philosophy and practice of prayer in the New Age cults, particularly in The Church of Religious Science. I am personally quite familiar with the teachings and practice of Religious Science. Their kind of "prayer" is a "religious" version of ancient witchcraft. It works, but what is the source of the power that makes it work? My advice is to stay away from it! Bob | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 368 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, The late Glen Coon, America's ABC preacher of prayer, was a very controversial person--even in Adventist circles. I have preached several sermons at his home church on beautiful Roan Mountain in east Tennessee. He always had questionable real estate entanglements with people. When he and his wife were back home from their travels to their log cabin, he would regularly go down the "hollow" (holler) to preach to a receptive hillbilly audience at a Pentecostal Holiness church. He was not welcome to preach at his home SDA church in his later years. He had many SDA enemies throughout the country--one even physically assaulted him in upstate New York when he was a pastor due to a bad business transaction. Consequently, he seemed to function best where people didn't know much about him--provided he didn't stay around long. I remember listening to his brother's (Lester Coon) sermon at the Johnson City, Tennessee SDA church one Saturday morning in the late 1960s. It was a highly-charged sermon railing against Catholics for nearly an hour. He literally ran all over the rostrum in his frenzy. The SDA audience was most delighted with his dogmatic rhetoric. These are exciting SDA memories (smile). While we were still Adventists, my wife and I threw out his self-published books that were given to us as gifts. Many SDA ministers did not agree with his views on prayer. His prayer theology was akin to that of Oral Roberts before he became a Methodist. By the way, he was the uncle of Ronald Numbers. One cannot choose his relatives. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 369 Registered: 4-2000 |
PS: Glen Coon desperately tried to make a financial deal with Dr. Ronald Numbers to not publish his 1976 book entitled, "Prophetess of Health." However, he lacked the funds, in lump sum, to make the deal very attractive. Coon proposed an installment plan to make the payoff. This book was my first glimpse at the deception of Adventism. --DJF | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1818 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Dennis, what interesting facts re: Glenn Coon! Doug, it's so good to see you again! The last I remember your posting you were about to get married. How was the wedding? How is your wife? Has she continued to come to terms with Adventism (or with leaving it?) I remember some agonized moments when she was struggling with some doubts. I've wondered often how you have been and things have been with your wife's transition. It's good to see you back! Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 302 Registered: 2-2002  |
I'm glad to hear from you too Doug! If I remember right, we both left the sda church around the same time, and were both dealing with teens! Hope you and your loved ones are well. God bless you. Carol | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hey Doug! Don't go back to lurksville, I miss you here! Give us an update!--Please. (Never heard of Theophostic prayer.) | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 115 Registered: 1-2003 |
Doug, Are you the Doug that everyone loved to "hate" back in the old days of SDAonline on CIS?  Richard | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 505 Registered: 3-2001 |
Greetings all. Thanks for the warm greetings. Richard, I am not the Doug from SDA online--although I've been hated in a place or two in my life, especially after I left the SDA Church <smile>. Sabra, Carol, and Colleen, its good to hear from all of you. Yes, I did get married. Its been not quite a year ago. My wife is still getting flack from her family, though it is much more sporadic these days. They are still convinced that she only left because of me. Sometimes she is torn between her decision to leave and her desire to make peace with her parents, but that only lasts until she attends a service, then she is reminded why she left. It happens every time, without fail. God has been good, and we are still growing together. With all the adjustments of marriage and getting more involved in our local church, I just don't have the time to visit like I did before. I'll continue to drop in from time to time to see how everyone is doing. Carol, it has been about three and a half years since we left. Looking back, it is hard to believe I was ever a part of that before. Sometimes I will be talking to someone about Adventism, and I realize that I have begun to forget some of the specifics of the crazy beliefs I used to hold. That's a good thing, I think. Anyway, gotta run. Will see you guys again soon. Doug | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 578 Registered: 10-2004  |
Richard, you're probably thinking of Doug Meister. I far as I know he is still staunchly SDA. He was on the Voluntary Online Adventist Forum until it shut down several months ago, I believe. Sometime last year he wrote on there that "there will be no former Adventists in heaven"! I believe that is a direct quote. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on April 21, 2005) | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 346 Registered: 5-2002 |
oooh, Jeremy, I'd love to have that article! Do you know of any way I can get my eyes on it? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 580 Registered: 10-2004 |
Unfortunately, since the forum was shut down, and I could not find it at archive.org, I don't know of any way of locating it. Jeremy | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jeremy, "Richard, you're probably thinking of Doug Meister." Yes that is the man I was thinking of and sounds more like I remember him. He used to love to stir the pot just to stir the pot. I could hardly believe that Doug222 was the same person but needed to check. It would have been a major change of attitude if they were the same person. <SMILE> Richard |
