| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1839 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Bob--I agree. One of our most important responsibilities as formers or as those who have close connections with Adventism is EDUCATION. There is great freedom in knwoing the truth. The Christian community needs to know the truth about the denomination also. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 216 Registered: 3-2005 |
This cult question has bothered me for a long time. I had multiple conversations with the late Dr Walter Martin, and he would always say that the traditional wing of Adventism would be labeled a cult, but in official SDA literature, they would never officially say what we all know that SDAs really teach, and that is what Martin was waiting for, but as Skip Baker attested to, and what Bob Morey said, Martin was convinced at the end of his life, that he had been lied to, and unfortunately he died before he could put it in print. Has anyone contacted Hank Hanegraf recently? His website, has a very benign statement regarding SDA, but they will also refuse to call Catholicism a cult--At least Morey is consistent, and labels both RCC, and SDA as cults. I found it very interesting that Kenneth Samples did the Forward to Dale's book, and Ken also worked directly for Walter Martin, and says he does not agree with all the conclusions of Dale. Ken Samples is a pastor in a Reformed Church, that just happens to share the same sanctuary with the Anaheim SDA church! However, I doubt that there would be conflict of interest on Ken's part, as his views have been consistent for a long time--but just a small point of interest. Another theory I have about Dale's approach, is with all the information he presents in the book, maybe he is allowing the reader to make his own decision, without overtly biasing someone. Stan | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2005 |
Stan, I've contacted Hank Hanegraf.... they kept me on waiting for over an hour, in the end they wanted to send me a fact sheet and have no conversation about the issue... I challenged him with this. You say the Seventh day Adventist Church WOULD be considered a cult if they held to XY and Z beliefs, but when confronted, the church gives explanation to XY and Z. I admit they are not owning up to what the actual beliefs are, but you will find in ANY SDA church that passes out ADULT ADVENTIST QUARTERLIES the cultic doctrines of XY and Z. Very few SDA churches refuse to order and pass out these booklets, and the GC supports the beliefs written within these quarterlies. The long way around in saying that theologians can put all kinds of frosting all over Adventist distinctives, but in the end, they are not hidden well when reading the adult quarterlies written for the purpose of educating SDA members on Adventist distinctives. I encourage all within hearing to work hard at educating Hank as I believe he has a heart for God, but is just not inside the culture enough to know the truth about Adventism. A foghorn like Hank would really help the cause of Christ. Sincerely, Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1844 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, many formers have contacted Hank over the past 8 years or so, and in 1997 he even had Mark Martin on the air with him and promised to do a 5-day series on ADventism. The series never materialized, and he started sending out pre-composed answers when people asked for info. He's been given literature currently in print that reveals the teachings of Adventism, but to no avail. I've heard some wonder whether the SDA powers that be got to him and offered money or some other incentive to keep quiet. Who knows? It just appears that he was once willing to pursue the subject but now is not. I can't explain what happened. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 593 Registered: 10-2004  |
I don't really understand the "official SDA literature" thing--it seems like a weak, invalid excuse. I mean aren't EGW's books "official SDA literature"???! They state in their official 27 beliefs that her writings are a "continuing and authoritative source of truth"! Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1419 Registered: 3-2004  |
I tell people I left a cult like church with cult like beliefs. Because of the way I raised my son, he does not see the cult like beliefs, even though he does not believe all the teachings of the SDA church. Please pray for him, that he will see them. He no longer attends the SDA church. Thanks for the prayers. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1846 Registered: 12-2003 |
I pray for him, Diana! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 218 Registered: 3-2005 |
There is a great review of the history of Walter Martin and Questions on Doctrine in Proclamation! Mar, April 2004, done by Steve Pitcher-front page which represents many of the problems Martin had dealing with SDA, and how deceptive their official literature is. The revised QOD, apparently doesn't help. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 220 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lisa and Colleen, Thanks for your input regarding Hank Hanegraf. There has long been speculation that the reason Hank's organization doesn't call Catholicism a cult, is because of the large amount of money the Catholic church donates to CRI. I believe it was Goldenbear who started an earlier thread about "following the money". It would be the investigative journalism story of the year, if some reporter could prove either Catholic's or SDA's contributions to Hank Hanegraf's organization, but knowing the history of the SDA church, I would not be surprised that someone might be paying up. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1781 Registered: 11-2002 |
Diana, Like you my children were not raised into the cultish ways of the SDA. In fact, all my children attend public schools with the exception of my oldest who attended Monterey Bay Academy for only four months and my second born who attend a SDA day school in grades 1, 2, and 3. The extent that my oldest was influenced by the SDA is his most loved relatives, going to SS as a young child, campmeeting and Camp Wawona. When he was around 12 the SDA preacher where we attended was fired by the conference because in the 12 years he'd pastored that church he never preached anything other than God's grace. Never nentioned EGW or anything she even wrote in any way. He grew that church from a handful at one weekly service to two overflowing services each Saturday. Anyway, after he got fired we attended the church he started up the very next Saturday. As a result of the upbringing my oldest son just does not see the cultish aspects of the SDA and now my wonderful little granddaughter has already attended grades K and 1 in a local SDA school. I wish he could see for himself how unBibical in many aspects the SDA is. He only seems to focus on Sabbath and food though. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1426 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susan, My son may not see the cultish aspects of the SDA church, but he does not attend the SDA church and does not want his son attending one. He wants a church with a good children's program where his son will learn about Jesus and where he and his wife will grow in Christ. I know there is a church in Little Rock Ark, waiting for him. God has it all prepared. God, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2005 |
I came across this Max Phillips article in Adventist Today from 1998. Am I wrong here, or is he putting EGW and Jesus on the same level? Nothing like tearing down Jesus to try to make Ellen look more palatable. The link to the article is here: http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/1998/marapr1998/articles/Phillips.shtml In the end, he says we need to let the doctrine just "fade away" as it has done it's job of "allowing the SDA pioneers a transition period." A transition period to what, another version of "Present Truth"? When he says it's time to jettison the IJ (the "Central pillar of the church"), does he realize what he's saying? Heretic | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1860 Registered: 12-2003 |
Uh--I'm not sure! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 180 Registered: 8-2004 |
I've heard this argument before! I believe it is fair to say that many SDAs who try to make logical sense of SDAism have to depend on the idea that God spoke to the human writers but the writers wrote it the best they could - and that what they wrote must be interpreted by 'what God meant'. And that apparently even Jesus, though walking in His Father's express will, and 'our perfect example', 'misspoke' from time to time as well. This leads them to readily believe that there are mistakes in the Bible (and not just transcriptionist mistakes) and also to accept the mistakes that show up in EGW. I wonder if this is at least part of why so many who leave SDAism go 'straight to the world' instead of to another church. They do not have real faith that the Bible is any more trustworthy than EGW, so if she falls in their minds so does the Bible. If Jesus did not fulfil what was written of him, he is not the messiah. If he did not speak the truth, where does that leave us? As CS Lewis said (paraphrasing from memory, I may have it wrong), He was who he said he was, God in the flesh, or he was a lunatic. He was not a just a good teacher, or a great man. He was either God, or the greatest liar the world has ever seen. You cannot have it both ways! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1861 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Mary! You're right, I believe, about people leaving Adventism having nowhere to go irf they do not really trust the Bible. Colleen | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 456 Registered: 6-2002 |
Just a little "heads up" about the quoted verse in Mark 13:24-30: The ". . . this generation shall not pass until all these things are done . . ." has a different meaning when you look at the Greek. Both the "shall not pass" and the "are done" are, in part, in the second Aorist, subjunctive. The subjunctive tense is clearly conditional, meaning the thing may or may not happen. This passage is repeated in Matthew 24:34 and Luke 21:32 with the exact same Greek words and grammar. Many scholars (other than SDA) have identified the "this generation" as "the generation present at the coming of the Anti-Christ". Whether or not those interpretations are accurate, when EGW made her 1856 prediction:
In this case, the English grammar is clear and unconditional that EGW means that at least one of the people alive in 1856 should remain alive until the second coming of Jesus. I will stay with the Bible and give EGW no credence, for my part. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1912 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting, Jerry. Thanks for sharing that. It's good to see you back here. How are you doing? With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 406 Registered: 7-2004 |
Blessedly I have always been taught that the statement made by Christ "this generation shall not pass until all things are done" was indicating that the generation that is alive when these things begin happening will not pass away until all is done. He was not speaking of the generation he was talking to, he was probably talking to you and me. As for that worn out prophecy of EGW, that one statement is all I need to know that she was just wearing her braids too tight! Praise God from whom all our blessings flow. If we must face the end, he will strengthen us for it, too. Whatever he requires of me, I pray I will stand where he tells me to stand. Read about the armour of God, and you will find that he does all the salvation work, we're only required to stand, like a signpost, like a guard, like a representative. Give me Jesus! Belva | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jerry, Thanks for that explanation of the Mark verse from the Greek. You really put it all back into context. Heretic | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2004 |
So...Heretic..What did you think of Cultic Doctrine? Randy |
