| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1499 Registered: 3-2004  |
Because it was not taught by EGW and they do not want to contradict her. I am being sarcastic and I know it. But if EGW does not say it, it is not believed, even if it is from the Bible. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 134 Registered: 6-2001 |
Call me the skeptic but I am not convinced. I did a little searching on a couple Adventist hymnal web sites and the songs that most blatantly expressed such doctrines such as grace, the Trinity, Christ's Deity etc. were left untouched. The great declaration of the Trinity in "Holy Holy Holy" is still there (although another verse is oddly different). "Fairest Lord Jesus," "Amazing Grace" and "It is Well with my Soul" appear unscathed, including "My sin not in part, but the whole is nailed to His cross and I bear it no more." To me it makes as much sense as those KJV-only folks who count how many times the word "Jesus" is used in the KJV and how many times fewer it is used in the NIV and reason the authors of the NIV are trying to take Jesus out of the Bible! The verses noted above that were eliminated are ones that I'm not even familiar with, and I grew up in a church that sang every verse in the hymn book, and sometimes it was "Let's sing that last verse again!" Many times hymbook editors take out verses to save space. That said the changes made to the songs are quite bizarre. The church obviously has no respect for the authors' works. In "Holy Holy Holy," which I mentioned above, the "edits" make no sense. "Holy, holy, holy! Angels adore Thee, Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea; Thousands and ten thousands worship low before Thee, Which wert, and art, and evermore shalt be." The original version has the saints casting down their golden crowns. Why does anyone think the angels even have golden crowns? And what doctrine are they trying to cover up? The original also says the cherabim and seraphim bow down. What's wrong with that? I'm leaning toward the theory that hymnbook editors all have superiority complexes. But then again, I have not read Colleen's article (Did you ever send it to me??) So maybe once I read that it will make more sense. On the fence, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1965 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hannah, in the 1985 version of Holy Holy Holy, they've put the Trinity back in. In the 1941 version, they left it out. For example, at the end of the third verse that says God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity, the 1941 version of the SDa hymnal left those lines out and substituted "God over all, who rules eternally." Come thou Almight King likewise left out the last verse which names the three persons of the Godhead, and also left out the verse declaring the identity of Jesus. They've cleaned these up, but in other songs, they've left the Trinity still compromised. in "On Jordan's Stormy Banks I Stand", for example, there is a line that speaks of God the Son turning night to day. In the SDA hymnal, (old as well as current), they've changed those words to Christ the SUN. There are so many of these changes it's impossible to ignore them. As to the verse you mention above, they leave out "saints" which refers to dead saved people. They can't have saved people in heaven yet, so they put in Angels instead. I haven't figured out yet why they leave out the cherubim and seraphim, though. It's one thing to leave out verses that have no particular theological signficance--even other hymnbooks leave out verses in some hymns because the original poems are too long. But the SDA hymn book leaves out verses other Christian hymnbooks do not leave out. I compared the SDA hymnbook with other Christian hymnbooks besides checking them against the original words found online. I started realizing how different the hymns I learned were from the same hymns in Christian hymnbooks when I'd sing with the faculty during worship at ACA where I taught. Over and over I'd find myself singing phrases or verses I'd never heard before. All the rest of the faculty knew those verses and phrases. I also had a couple of other major "jolts" of discovery over Holy, Holy, Holy, and Come, Thou Almighty King. Amazing. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 662 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, it's not just deletions, Hannah. The actual edits of these hymns (to make the doctrine Adventist) and the deleting of verses from the new hymnal that were in the old, has to be deliberate. As Colleen said, the saints thing is due to their soul sleep (ceasing) heresy, although EGW does teach that the saints that rose at Jesus' Resurrection ascended to heaven with Him! Plus Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are in heaven even according to SDAism. So they really shouldn't be uncomfortable with talking about saints in heaven, even by their theology! Jeremy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 433 Registered: 7-2004 |
Another song that needs review is "Welcome, Welcome, Ever Welcome, Blessed Sabbath Day." I have nothing here (my books are all in storage) but I do know that this song was re-written to fit with the 7th Day approach. Belva | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 |
Speaking of songs - One day my M-I-L was visiting and we were all in the car going somewhere. The kids and I were singing "The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's the book for me. I stand alone on the Word of God, the B-I-B-L-E". My M-I-L had a fit and said that was a terrible song to teach the kids, and that we should never, ever, sing it. Her reason was that it taught the kids to STAND on the Bible and one should never put anything on top of the Bible! I was really taken aback at that one! She was a very Historic Adventist, such that she and the rest of the family finally left the SDA Church, calling it Babylon also! Has anyone else heard that about that song? We kept singing it, and the kids knew what it really meant to "stand on the Bible". At the Church we now attend, I am often finding that the songs we song are different than when I learned them growing up in the SDA Church. I guess I will take note of just what the differences are from now on! It's quite disconcerting to know that even the old hymns I cherish are suspect. I will be sure to learn the right words from now on! -tisha | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1968 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tisha, The B-I-B-L-E was in the old Primary songbook, "Happy Songs for Boys and Girls". I grew up singing that song in Sabbath School. No problem with misunderstanding "stand" back then! I don't think the song is sung much anymore (or even known much) because "Happy Songs" went out of style somewhere along the way, and many of those songs fell by the wayside. I know what you mean, though, Tisha--it's shocking to discover that you've learned many great hymns of the faith--WRONG! The gospel has been veiled in many of them. Frankly, I think changing the words in hymns is like publishing Shakespeare or Milton and changing lines in their poetry without alerting the reader. That sort of "editing" would be considered dishonest and agenda-driven, like revisionist history, or something! Yet changing lines in a hymn is no less altering the words of poets, many of whom are classic Christian writers like Isaac Watts, John Wesley, etc, than would be altering Shakespeare. Just my "English teacher bandwagon". Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 251 Registered: 7-2004  |
Colleen, One piece of good news about having to learn new words to familiar songs, it causes us to stop and think about the lyrics even more. And the messages of the great hymns are truly outstanding. As much as I love contemporary worship music, the depth of meaning in the words doesn't even scratch the surface. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2001 |
I have noticed in the new church I have joined (Free Methodist) that they also have changed the words to some of the songs. In there case they changed the wording to make the songs more inclusive of women and to eliminate archaic wording. Still the wording of the old hymns from my childhood sticks in my head like glue and I'm uncomfortable even with those changes. I have not asked where the changes came from. I agree with Colleen that changing the wording of hymns would be like trying to improve upon Shakespeare or the Bible. Wait, adventists did that too. Is there a disclaimer in the SDA hymnbook at all? (Our songs are on PowerPoint, so we have no book) If you don't like the way the song is worded, well then write your own! Which is what Adventists have done, to an extent. I noticed while scrolling through the SDA hymnbook how many songs were dedicated to the Sabbath. I guess Adventist hymnwriters were pretty lucky that "rest" rhymes with "blest." (And they complain about contemporary choruses being shallow.) I think if you sing any song on autopilot, it doesnt matter what the words are. And if you are really singing the words to Jesus, no words are too shallow! I guess they never bothered to notice that many of those "shallow" choruses are (what do you know!) taken straight from the Psalms. Actually one of the shallowest songs I have ever heard is in fact a hymn -- "Jesus is the Sweetest Name I Know," which basically says "I love Jesus because He is sweet." I can tell I'm starting to get off topic here, but this is one of my pet peeves, and most conservatives are guilty of it, not just Adventists. Ramblingly, Hannah | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 663 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, changing the words of hymns is like "reverse plagiarism" (as my sister put it). So, considering EGW's "habit" (as her son Willie put it), it shouldn't be surprising that the SDAs do it with hymns, too! Regarding "The B-I-B-L-E," growing up, my sister and I both thought that "I stand alone on the Word of God" meant that "even if no one else does, I will" rather than "the Bible alone/Sola Scriptura"!  The SDAs even have their own hymn about EGW! Here are a couple of verses:
Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 387 Registered: 4-2000  |
"O Shepherd Divine" is #192 in the 1985 SDA hymnal. Amazing heresy! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1972 Registered: 12-2003 |
My goodness! I did not remember those words--but now that I see them, I do have memories of singing them. Indeed, "amazing heresy"! Ric, I agree about the great hymns of the faith carrying great theological truths that most praise songs miss. The words really do mean MUCH more to me than they used to. I'm always pleased that our worship leader does at least one or two hymns every worship service, and he generally chooses praise songs which express profound truths about salvation, the Trinity, Jesus, etc., as opposed to repetitive, emotion-evoking songs. Colleen | ||
| Somethinfishy Registered user Username: Somethinfishy Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2004 |
"My Jesus, I Love Thee" is my favorite hymn. Because I attended "Sunday-church" youth groups with my friends when I was young(er), I was "exposed" to the original version quite some time ago, but I always had to take a second to remember which church I was in before singing the third verse. SDA: I'll love Thee in life, I will love Thee TILL death. Original: I'll love Thee in life, I will love Thee IN death. Not sure if there are other differences in that verse, regarding the "death dew," I can't find my SDA hymnal right now...but that one always tripped me up. Luckily my voice isn't strong enough that I would stick out if I forgot which church I was in. Fishy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 667 Registered: 10-2004 |
According to the SDA Digital Hymnal site (digitalhymnal.org), that is the only change in that hymn--putting "'til death" instead of "in death." Jeremy | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 438 Registered: 6-2004 |
Well, I have no recollection of what songs were sang during my SDA period. I wasn't familiar with hymns other than Amazing Grace. I do recall that they only had an organist for the music. To be honest it wasn't my cup of tea (decaffeinated, of course). | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2004 |
I do not remember if this one's been mentioned, but Standing on the Promises is missing these two verses Standing on the promises I now can see Perfect, present cleansing in the blood for me; Standing in the liberty where Christ makes free, Standing on the promises of God. Standing on the promises I cannot fall, Listening every moment to the Spiritís call Resting in my Savior as my all in all, Standing on the promises of God. I actually remember singing the second verse, so maybe it's in the new hymnal or the old. But it wasn't online where I was checking. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 439 Registered: 6-2004 |
Was there a hymn called "Marching To Zion"? ...and why do I remember that title? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 197 Registered: 8-2004 |
Yes there is. I found it on this website: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/a/marching.htm Come, we that love the Lord, And let our joys be known; Join in a song with sweet accord, Join in a song with sweet accord And thus surround the throne, And thus surround the throne. Refrain Weíre marching to Zion, Beautiful, beautiful Zion; Weíre marching upward to Zion, The beautiful city of God. The sorrows of the mind Be banished from the place; Religion never was designed Religion never was designed, To make our pleasures less, To make our pleasures less. Refrain Let those refuse to sing, Who never knew our God; But favorites of the heavenly King, But favorites of the heavenly King May speak their joys abroad, May speak their joys abroad. Refrain The God that rules on high, And thunders when He please, Who rides upon the stormy sky, Who rides upon the stormy sky, And manages the seas, And manages the seas. Refrain This awful God is ours, Our Father and our Love; He will send down his heavínly powers, He will send down his heavínly powers, To carry us above, To carry us above. Refrain There we shall see His face, And never, never sin! There, from the rivers of His grace, There, from the rivers of His grace, Drink endless pleasures in, Drink endless pleasures in. Refrain Yea, and before we rise, To that immortal state, The thoughts of such amazing bliss, The thoughts of such amazing bliss, Should constant joys create, Should constant joys create. Refrain The men of grace have found, Glory begun below. Celestial fruits on earthly ground Celestial fruits on earthly ground From faith and hope may grow, From faith and hope may grow. Refrain The hill of Zion yields A thousand sacred sweets Before we reach the heavínly fields, Before we reach the heavínly fields, Or walk the golden streets, Or walk the golden streets. Refrain Then let our songs abound, And every tear be dry; Weíre marching through Immanuelís ground, Weíre marching through Immanuelís ground, To fairer worlds on high, To fairer worlds on high. Refrain It was written by Isaac Watts and set to music by Robert Lowry | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1975 Registered: 12-2003 |
Marching to Zion was in the junior/earliteen/youth hymbook called "Singing Youth". It's an authentic old hymn, but it wasn't in the main hymnal. When I was in grade school, we sang out of Singing Youth every week for Junior Missionary Volunteer worship, and we also used it in Sabbath Schhol. I remember that #4,"The Captain Calls for You", was the "test" for how good a pianist was. If a person could play that song, get the notes, keep up the speed, and stay in rhythm, that person was acknowledged as accomplished. That song my one claim of worthiness. I was an abysmal failure at sportsóalways chosen last and even missing the ball as I swung during a game of workup, hitting myself on the back of the head with my bat, and falling down on home plate one black day in ninth gradeóbut I was could play #4! How patheticóbut then, I can't think of a worse time of life than ninth grade. I'm sure God had me teach ninth graders for the past five years partly to help redeem my own disgust! He is awesome! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 303 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, Wow, that #4, "Captain calls for you" in "Singing Youth" sure stands out in my mind, and brings back a lot of memories--in fact, mostly pleasant ones especially when sung at camps. Stan |
