| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 208 Registered: 8-2004 |
I've begun reading a "Martin Luther - Selections from his writings with an introduction by John Dillenberger." I've found lots of food for thought already and I'm not even past the introduction. Here are some quotes that I wanted to share with you. In John Dillenberger's opinion: "Luther's great contribution centers in the recovery of the Biblical meaning of the righteousness of God. Generally the Medieval church defined the righteousness of God as the demanding justice of God; for the mature Luther, by contrast, the righteousness of God was fundamentally the mercy of God.... In so far as the medieval view interpreted the righteousness of God as His demanding justice, the fundamental problem was how man could stand before such a God. "The medieval church did not believe that man could do this in terms of his own righteousness. Rather in the prevailing medieval view, man hoped to stand before the righteousness of God by virture of a combination of serious intentions, righteous works whose imperfections were met by grace, and the sacramental realities which covered all the situations of men. It was a combination of grace and of the best acts of men." Does this sound familiar to any of you? It is very like what I used to think was going to save me! I used to try to have the best intentions, do the best works I knew, beg God to cover the imperfections I knew must be there, and at the same time somehow believe that I was covered by Jesus blood - so long as there was nothing unconfessed. Thank God that I know know that HE is faithful to complete the work He has begun in me - that it is my place to trust in and rest in HIM! What a relief and joy! Thank you Jesus! Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2076 Registered: 12-2003  |
Mary, great insights. Thank you for sharing them. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 364 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mary, Thanks for sharing those insights from Luther. He is my favorite of the reformers. I also highly recommend reading Luther's commentary on Galatians, and there are newer versions out now translated into modern English. One of these is published by Crossway books, and is available in Christian bookstores. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 713 Registered: 10-2004  |
The only difference between that and the SDA gospel, is that according to the SDA's you can't have "imperfections"! You have to be perfect! Jeremy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 209 Registered: 8-2004 |
 What I remember being taught was that currently we still can have 'imprefections'. As our imperfections decrease progressively less grace is needed to cover. They just have to be gone before the time of probation closes and our mediator walks out on us. Mary | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 715 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yeah. But then there are the EGW quotes like where she says that you have to stop sinning before you come to Christ...! Jeremy | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 |
More on Luther and the Reformation: Luther's discovery of "justification by faith alone" was not radical because Rome believed we were saved by works, but because Rome believed we were saved by grace-empowered works. Rome would argue we ARE saved by grace. After all, we could not even perform these works without grace. But Luther and Calvin insisted that grace was something more than divine assistance and inner transformation. We could never be so inwardly transformed by the Holy Spirit in this life that we would be without sin. So surely justification by inward transformation is no way to salvation, the Reformers said. God demands HIS best, not OURS. Even as an apostle, Paul recognized "the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do" (Rom 7:14,15) In otherwords, even when we have our "quiet time with God," and put God first at the beginning of the day, for instance, we feel proud of ourselves for having done so. Whenever our new affections (grace imparted) set out to do something right for a change, our old affections are right there waiting to corrupt them. So grace imparted is not enough to save us - - not because the law is flawed or because grace is weak, but because we cannot eradicate our sinful nature. So what we need is what the Reformers called "alien righteousness," - - that is, someone else's righteousness, if we are to be saved. If sin consisted in actions, all one had to do in order to become holy would be to stop this or that action. "Surely I was sinful at birth," David confessed (Ps 51:5) Also Ps. 58:3; Jer 17:9. Our problem is not our sins, but our sinful nature! JWD | ||
| Blacksheep Registered user Username: Blacksheep Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
Where are the quotes found in EGW that you have to stop sinning before you come to Christ? This sounds so helpful when I talk to my neice about her strong SDA convictions. Thanks, if anyone can find that for me!! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 717 Registered: 10-2004 |
Blacksheep, here is one that I was thinking of, but it seems like there may be some others which have similar sentiments.
Wow, "we must bring our hearts into harmony with" the Law?! Sounds like works plus nothing minus grace and faith! Or something... Jeremy | ||
| Blacksheep Registered user Username: Blacksheep Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Jeremy. I can say when I was an SDA I never did stop sinning. I even tried the minute by minute approach, but then I forgot, so I got so discouraged, I quit trying.Can anyone else help me out here-especially from the Great White Library, so she can read it from her books? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 260 Registered: 7-2004  |
I collected most of these from posts Jon has made on the SDA board at CARM. "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement." (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214) "What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will.î (Steps to Christ, p. 47) "But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. "Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. (Christís Object Lessons, p. 331) "Those who are connected with the service of God must be purified from every thread of selfishness. All is to be done in accordance with the injunction, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all" (Col. 3:17) "to the glory of God" (1 Cor.10:31). God's laws of justice and equity must be strictly obeyed in the transactions between neighbor and neighbor, brother and brother. We are to seek for perfect order and perfect righteousness, after God's own similitude. On these grounds alone will our works bear the test of the judgment." (Selected Messages, bk. 1, p. 114). "In the day of judgment many will be found wanting because they have been tested and proved of God and found unworthy of eternal life. God could not trust them in heaven. The decision will be made for eternity; he that is not faithful in that which is least cannot be entrusted with greater responsibilities. They will be judged by their works which have determined their character." (Publishing Ministry, p. 299). "Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained" (Selected Messages, Book 1, pp. 396-398). îThe righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin.î (Christís Object Lessons, p. 316) "There is no safety nor repose nor justification in transgression of the law. Man cannot hope to stand innocent before God, and at peace with Him through the merits of Christ, while he continues in sin. He must cease to transgress and become loyal and true." (1 Selected Messages, p. 213) "Moral perfection is required of all.î (Christís Object Lessons, p. 330) "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 6, p. 1118). "Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth." (Review and Herald, February 7, 1957) "Happiness is the result of holiness and conformity to the will of God. Those who would be saints in heaven must first be saints upon the earth; for when we leave this earth, we shall take our character with us, and this will be simply taking with us some of the elements of heaven imparted to us through the righteousness of Christ. (3 Selected Messages, pp. 190-192) "While God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties.ě (1 Selected Messages, p. 366) "Not even by a thought did He (Christ) yield to temptation. So it may be with us" (Ellen White, The Desire of Ages, p. 123). ěJesus died to save His people from their sins, and redemption in Christ means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from every sin; no heart that is stirred with enmity against the law of God is in harmony with Christ, who suffered on Calvary to vindicate and exalt the law before the universeî (Faith & Works, p. 95) "There is no safety nor repose nor justification in transgression of the law. Man cannot hope to stand innocent before God, and at peace with Him through the merits of Christ, while he continues in sin. He must cease to transgress and become loyal and true." (1 Selected Messages, p. 213) | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 491 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ric-b, I hope you will not be offended if I didn't read through each and every quote above. After having EGW used as a whipping lash to make students conform, and later on having my mother thrash me with quotes from dear Ellen, I have a very hard time doing more than skim through the stuff she has written, particularly when they are quotes like the ones you have listed. We can be sure of one thing only, the above quotes were directly from the pen of EGW, not plagerized from some other writer of her time, or taken from the pages of scripture. What you have listed is Pure Ellen White. That should scare the living daylights out of anyone who loves to read the SOP. How anybody can read that stuff and not discern the sheer impossibleness of what she said the people in the final days of history would have to live up to is beyond me. Thank you for collecting so many of her condemning quotes into one place. She is scarier than Freddy! After reading that stuff a person will have nightmares on any street! Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1590 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank You Jeremy. Those quotes just remind me even more of what Jesus did for me and I no longer have to believe in EGW. Thank God she is not a part of my life any more. THANK YOU GOD. YOU ARE AWESOME AND ALL I NEED AND WANT. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 366 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric, A lot of ex SDAs will still say that Steps to Christ is a good gospel based book. You totally blew those ideas out of the water with that quote you gave from P. 47, saying basically that salvation is an act of the will. Nothing could be further from the truth! We are saved by a sovereign choice God has made, and salvation happens at a time of God's own choosing, and not man's choosing. He has left nothing up to chance or our own human will in securing our salvation. I am still in awe of the concepts of the sovereignty and majesty of God! Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 718 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I agree. We are saved by grace not by an "action of [our own] will"--in fact the Bible says that we "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13 NASB.) And what you said about Steps to Christ is also true for The Desire of Ages (I noticed one of Ric's quotes was from there, too). For some reason some people think those books teach the Gospel--but they only teach EGW's false gospel. Here are a couple more quotes from Steps to Christ, showing how it teaches a false gospel:
Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 04, 2005) | ||
| Blacksheep Registered user Username: Blacksheep Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thankyou, Jeremy for those quotes. They will be helpful. My neice is the only one in my family that even halfway listens to me. I hope she will hear these quotes and see the absurdity of them. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hey, just the other night we watched the movie "Luther". It was soooo good. I have always been fascinated with history and religious history and found it to be so interesting. Has anyone seen it? It has Joseph Fiennes and is fairly recent (within the last 10 years I think) Bb | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2000  |
Bb, I have the new Luther movie also, and I like it a lot. By the way, if you have never watched the old black and white movie on Luther than was made in the early 1950's, find it and watch it. It was good too! Bob | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 398 Registered: 4-2000  |
Bb, Yes, I have watched the movie "Luther" as well. It is an excellent, accurate portrayal of the role Dr. Martin Luther had in formulating Protestant theology. I have Luther's German Bible in my library in the old German script that is now obsolete. (Ich kann zimmlich gut Deutsch sprechen.) Susan, please put on your German glasses (smile). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 816 Registered: 7-2003  |
Ja sprechen Sie deutschen Brunnen, Dennis. |
