| Author |
Message |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 419
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:27 pm: |     |
Chris,
I do agree with you. I liked the fact that you diverted over to sex and away from alcohol in order to make the comparison, and alcohol has been the preedominant theme on this thread up until now.
I may still have some legalism left in me over this issue of whether former alcoholics can use alcohol again in moderation. But my medical science training leaves me with no choice but to always recommend strongly that any former alcoholics always abstain from alcohol.
However, I am intrigued enough by Hrob's story to examine evidence that my medical training was too dogmatic, and that God may have purposes that I don't understand. Since it is clear that Jesus provided wine, and came as the "eating and drinking" man, unlike John the Baptist, then it just may be possible that a work of grace could be done in a person so that they could again enjoy what God created. I am open to this as a possibility--its just difficult for me because of my training. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 218
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:29 pm: | |
Yes we need to be able to say 'this is right, and that is wrong' we also need to remember that God is the ultimate Judge and that he knows things about every situation that we do not.
Even in our discernment, our job is to point people to Jesus, not drag them down,
And we need to be careful to have accurate facts, not just rumor or hearsay or "---- MUST be guilty because . . . ."
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Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 11:17 pm: | |
Collen:
You said:
"but the NT is quite clear that if a brother falls into sin, those who see it are to call him to repentance and even to administer discipline if there's no repentance. All this is for the purpose of saving his soul. (See the incident in 1 Corinthians 5 above.)"
I am truly asking...I don't know the answer. Is it for the purpose of saving his soul or is it for the purpose of helping him live the abundant life God has for him?
Patria |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 30
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 11:20 pm: | |
Hrob:
My understanding is that because it's recorded in the Bible doesn't necessarily mean it's "condoned" by God. In fact, I can't quote a text, but I believe God specifically commanded that the Israelites not live their lives as the surrounding nations were (living) which included multiple wives and concubines. My understanding is that God did not punish specifically for that sin, but it was clearly out of His will for them.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!
Patria |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2132
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 11:44 pm: | |
Patria, I understand your question, and I can't answer it comprehensively. But here's what I do know.
Paul says: "When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord" (1 Cor. 5:4-5).
Here's what the study notes of the NIV Study Bible say,
"hand this man over to Satan": Abandon this sinful man to the devil that he may afflict the man as he pleases. This abandonment to Satan was to be accomplished, not by some magical incantation, but by expellin =g the man from the church (see v. 13; also vv 2, 7, 11) To expel him was to put him out in the devil's territory, severed from any connection with God's people. "so that the sinful nature may be destroyed": So that being officially ostracized from the church will cause the man such anguish that he will repent and forsake his wicked way. For an alternative interpretation see NIV text note. [The NIV text note says "that his body, or that the flesh" instead of "that the sinful nature" may be destroyed.] "his spirit saved. Cf 3:15. The person put out of the church may well be a Christian. "day of the Lord": When Christ returns.
So, I'm not sure I can give a completely comprehensive answer. We're not sure whether or not the person caught in sin is really born again. At any rate, the discipline is for the purpose of repentance and restoration.
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 262
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 9:14 am: | |
I'm catching up on this thread a little late, and have several comments.
Colleen, if our choice of legal substance use is a form of self-medicating and our choice of caffeine vs alcohol is based on personality--what does that say about those of us who like Irish Coffee or Rum and Coke? ;)
I really struggle with the question of whether drinking in moderation should be considered an option for someone with an addiction. To deny that it is possible seems to deny God's power. OTOH to suggest it is reasonable is extremely risky based on the outcome for many who try just that.
Chris, I thought that your analogy was dead on the mark. We shouldn't judge another on either their choice to abstain or their choice to drink in moderation. Neither one makes us "more free" or "more holy". |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 10:26 am: | |
Colleen:
Boy that's one to make the old brain start thinking. I only asked because I've recently been doing a Bible study that strongly suggests that as Christians we are convicted of sin and not condemned for sin, by God.
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...
I guess my understanding of the passage in Corinthians is that since the believer isn't listening to the conviction of the Spirit, he needs to sent away so that he doesn't "infect" the rest of the congregation. I don't see that he has lost his salvation; and would have to assume that Paul isn't saying that in light of Romans 8:1. (bread with yeast). What do you think of that? Does that seem in line with the passage?
Patria |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 10:27 am: | |
Colleen:
Boy that's one to make the old brain start thinking. I only asked because I've recently been doing a Bible study that strongly suggests that as Christians we are convicted of sin and not condemned for sin, by God.
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...
I guess my understanding of the passage in Corinthians is that since the believer isn't listening to the conviction of the Spirit, he needs to sent away so that he doesn't "infect" the rest of the congregation. (bread and yeast analogy). I don't see that he has lost his salvation; and would have to assume that Paul isn't saying that in light of Romans 8:1. What do you think of that? Does that seem in line with the passage?
Patria |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2135
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 10:56 am: | |
Patria, I agree that Paul is not saying the person has lost his salvation. He is taking a hard line on allowing open, unrepentant sin in the body of Christ.
As Elizabeth Inrig often says, a church will always have at least three types of people attending: the truly born again, the curious, and those who enjoy participating in "Christianity" but have not fully surrendered. It's often hard to tell the difference--and I don't think it's our calling to try to figure it out. If a person CLAIMS to be a Christ-follower, we must treat him as if he is.
If he is not truly one of Christ's, time will expose the truth without our "help"!
Colleen |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 11:20 am: | |
Amen, Sister. Thank goodness Christ doesn't need my help!
Patria |
Foreverscout
Registered user
Username: Foreverscout
Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 1:43 am: | |
I have to tell you that I am another drug addict who has an occasional drink without any consequence. Once in a while I just like to relax with a drink. I might go weeks or even months without it, it's no big deal for me.
My drug of choice was meth-amphetamine, but I also used pot sometimes. There have even been a few times during my struggles with chronic biological depression that I abused alchohol.
It may be rare, but I don't guess I'm the only one now. It must be a fluke. Or maybe it's like Colleen said, I really prefer the buzz of the meth to self-medicate my depression.
I wouldn't reccomend it though- to anyone who has struggled with addiction. Clean time is far too precious for that. You have to ask yourself, do I want to experiment and find out whether this is possible for me or not? Afterall, it's jails, institutions and death we are talking about. I myself have 13 years clean from street drugs. And now I have 8 1/2 weeks free from cigarettes. I treasure what the Lord has given me when I gave up the vain abuse of chemicals. I was trying to find something I could not find anywhere but in HIM.
I do not see alchohol as a bad thing; it's just another thing that when abused can lead to many horrible endings. Yes, you can teach your children to drink responsibly, but if there is any drug or alchohol addiction anywhere in your family, addiction can happen to your child. There is a family predisposition. It goes way back in my families and my husbands families, not every generation mind you, it skips around, and it does not run directly. This is what I have taught my children, be aware, it can happen to you.
His continual work in progress,
Foreverscout |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 849
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 7:45 am: | |
Just for the record, I heartly agree that complete abstinence is the best course whenever there is familial or personal predisposition towards addiction.
I think Ric's succinct statement said it best:
quote:We shouldn't judge another on either their choice to abstain or their choice to drink in moderation. Neither one makes us "more free" or "more holy'.
Chris |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 7:33 pm: | |
Hello!
I wonder if i am the only one who feels scared even coming to this site?? I am a SDA member, in good standing, lol, With a child in an SDA school. I have been studying with a nondenomination bible study for several years, and have come to find this experience an uplifting and "church-type" fellowship. I am so impressed by the christians of all denominations i have met there, and the joy that they demonstrate and possess. I am struggling mainly with the sabbath issue. I cant decide if it is in my own self interest to even consider not "keeping the sabbath". I do love sports and such on that day. And maybe it is wishful thinking on my part to think that it would be nice to not stuggle every saturday about what i can and cannot do, and then feeling so guilty when i pursue my own pleasure etc...And so the question to myself is, am I considering taking the "wide road that leads to destruction", because it is convinient and easy? I know i am not spiritually fed at my church, and in fact dread going alot of times. I have recently developed a relationship of sorts with Jesus, but I must say all this thinking and studying is making me MAD!!! Why cant all this be easy and clearcut. Why would God hide his intentions from me when I am honestly seeking. Why do I struggle with the doctrinal issues. WHy do so many disagree, and where is that voice that says clearly THIS IS THE WAY? I am soooo tired of not knowing, despite praying for clarity and peace. All i know is, when i am around other christians in my study group, I want what they have. So hello anyway, and i hope to find something here from others with a similar backgroud. |
Foreverscout
Registered user
Username: Foreverscout
Post Number: 62
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 12:10 am: | |
Hi Javagirl, since I am the first one to read this, I want to respond so you know that you are being heard. I am not SDA, so I can not understand what you are going through, but I can pray for you. I am and was raised Lutheran, it's my brother who has become SDA so I am here to gain understanding. There are many wonderful people here in the Spirit of Christ who will help you. Meanwhile I will lift you to the Lord Java, that He grants you His peace which passes all understanding.
The Lord Bless You and Keep You,
Foreverscout |
Foreverscout
Registered user
Username: Foreverscout
Post Number: 63
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 12:23 am: | |
Never mind, I see you've posted this elsewhere and have already found help. I'm glad, see, I told you everyone here is wonderful.
God Bless! :o) |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 187
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 12:38 am: | |
I found the following at a church site I was checking out when making plans for a vacation trip up through California in a few week. It made me stop and think about what defines me. 
DECISIONS THAT DEFINE US
Christian Life Center is a company of people committed to living in the supernatural and turning the world upside down.
In order to be a people that turn the world upside down (Acts 17:6) they would have to make important decisions, and we have chosen to make those decisions. They are decisions that determine what we think, what we believe and how we live.
HERE ARE A FEW OF THOSE DECISIONS...
We have made the decision that teaching the Gospel without demonstrating the gospel is not enough. Good preaching is not enough, good doctrine is not enough, and being good people is not enough.
We have decided that having a good church club is not enough, good fellowship is not enough, and just being a member of that club is not enough.
We have decided that having good Bible studies is not enough, that just making it to heaven is not enough, and that knowing about God without truly knowing and experiencing God is not enough.
We have decided that having good programs is not enough; that change without transformation is not enough, and that staying the same is not an option.
We have decided that gifting with out character is not enough.
We have decided that singing songs without worshiping is not enough and having meetings without God showing up is not enough.
We have decided that having faith without works is not enough and having works without love is not acceptable; our function comes out of our relationship first with the Father and second with each other.
We have decided that reading about the book of Acts without living the book of Acts is unthinkable.
We have decided that confident faith is good and bold faith is better.
We have decided that hearing about the Holy Spirit without experiencing Him is not enough, that believing in His Presence without seeing It manifested in signs and wonders is not enough; believing in healing without seeing people healed is absurd, and that believing in deliverance without people being delivered is absolutely ridiculous.
We have decided to be Holy Spirit filled, Holy Spirit led, and Holy Spirit empowered - anything less doesn't work for us.
We have decided to be the ones telling the stories of God's power - not the ones hearing about them.
We have decided that living saved but not supernatural, is living below our privilege and short of what Christ died for.
We have decided that we are a battle ship not a cruise ship, an army not an audience, special forces not spectators, missionaries not club members.
We have decided to value both pioneers and settlers; pioneers to expand our territory and settlers to build on those territories - but we are not squatters - people who take up space others have fought for without improving it.
We have decided to be infectious instead of innocuous, contagious instead of quarantined, deadly instead of benign.
We have decided to be radical lovers and outrageous givers.
We have decided that we are a mission station and not a museum.
Therefore:
We honor the past - we don't live in it
We live in the present with our eyes on the future - not the past
We see past events - successes and failures - as stepping-stones not stop signs
We pursue learning in order to do, not learning in order to know
We are people of engagement not observation
We focus on what could be, not on what is or has been
We are not limited to the four walls of this building. Our influence is not restricted by location - not even the nations are out of bounds
We are more concerned about how many we send out into the world than how many we convince to come into the building. This building is meant to be filled and it will be - but it will not be the measure of who we are or the measure of our effectiveness.
We raise up world changers - not tour guides. We train commandos, not committees
We are a people of our destiny, not of our history
We have decided that it is better to fail while reaching for the best God has planned for us than succeed settling for less.
We have decided that nothing short of His Kingdom come, His will be done in our world as it is in heaven - nothing short of that will satisfy.
We have decided that we will not be satisfied until our world freaks out and cries out "Those who have turned the world upside down have come here too."
These are some of the decisions that define who we are as a community and how we live our lives
These decisions are not destinations but rather journeys - journeys along an ancient path; we have not found some new way - but rather rediscovered the path as old as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The same path followed by Moses, Joshua and Caleb, Paul, John, Peter.
The path followed by the first century church - a church that revolutionized the culture of the first century and beyond.
It is a path that will impact the world we live in today. It is a path of Bold Faith - believing that what the scripture teaches is really true and acting on it. Outrageous Generosity - giving our life away in order to demonstrate His Kingdom, and Radical Love - loving God with everything in us and our neighbor as ourselves. It is a path of liberty, freedom, and healing. On this path one finds significance, purpose, and destiny.
This is a path less traveled, however, it is not a path only available to a select few - not just to those who attend CLC - but to whosoever will, may come. It is for people of every nation, tribe and tongue for those in any occupation or vocation.
No matter where you are in your life journey -
there is room on this path for you
Jesus said it this way: "Come, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me - for my yoke is easy and my burden is light - and you will find rest unto your souls."
This is not an invitation to inactivity or retirement - but to
cease striving, walk in rest and partner with Christ
while turning your world upside down
I hope this makes you think as much as it did me.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 6:24 am: | |
Richard,
This is phenomenal. I am printing it out to keep on my desk in front of me at all times.
Thank you.
DT |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 188
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:45 pm: | |
DT I was blessed as I read about their vision and goals. I'll be traveling up through CA the last week of July and then back down the first week of August and would love to worship with them.
richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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