| Author | Message | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2005 |
Stan, My wife and I have visited a Covenant Presbyterian Church the past two weeks. It's funny (to us) that they rent a couple rooms from the central SDA Church for their meetings. Only a small group, but people attending come from varied backgrounds: Catholic ! Yes it's true! Pentecostal ! Which I find amazing! SDA and other backgrounds. Real thick Fillet Mignon "meat" is preached! Serious Biblical food. 100% Reformed theology here. We're going back because of the very warm reception by other members but primarily because of the gifted preacher whose menu for the past two weeks has been nothing but the thickest, delicous "meat" of the Word of God. Jess | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 522 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, Thanks for sharing that. Isn't it great when you find a church that really preaches true Reformed theology, and they do it in a way that is winsome. Some of the Reformed folks are a little rigid and boring in their presentations, but some are really good, like the one you found. When Reformed theology is preached with power, there is a lot of excitement, and it's exciting that your church is drawing from such a broad spectrum of different backgrounds. If you like Reformed theology, I wonder if you checked out the web site I posted above called www.monergism.com It is filled with writings from all the great historical Reformed writers. I also like Spurgeon's defense of Calvinism at www.spurgeon.org/calvin.htm I have also seen you refer to Dr. Michael Horton in some of your other posts, and his book on the Reformed faith "Putting Amazing back into Grace" is written in such an entertaining and informative way. He is also one of the co-hosts of the White Horse Inn radio show which is heard on Sunday nights and is archived for listening at www.whitehorseinn.org. It is an entertaining roundtable discussion on Reformed theology which is excellent. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 523 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, That Spurgeon link which I'm sure you have seen before is www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm The other link doesn't work. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1718 Registered: 3-2004  |
Colleen, The comments you made about the SDAs establishing their own culture really struck home with me. Since I decided not to rejoin adventism, I have listened to my Spanish stations with their Mexican music without guilt and have told God, Thank You that I do not have to feel guilty about listening to this. As an SDA I felt like I could not really and truly be a Mexican and enjoy my heritage. Now I can. Thank You God. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2282 Registered: 12-2003  |
Diana, what an interesting observation! Thank you for sharing your experience. Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2003 |
I checked out the book "Chosen By God" from the library and got a little more than I expected. A previous borrower of this copy had written his or her opposing comments in margins on some of the pages. On page 31 Sproul states, "The Bible does not reveal the answers to all our questions." This person revealed where he/she was coming from when he/she underlined the quote and wrote, "That is why Jesus Christ founded the Holy Catholic Church." I had to chuckle a bit because years ago I would have answered "that is why we have The Spirit of Prophecy." It is interesting how God chose to introduce me to Reformed theology. I am still at this point searching and studying but find myself leaning more and more toward Calvin's view. The homeschool tutorial that my children starting attending 2 years ago, while we were still attending an SDA church, uses Veritas Press material which is based on reformed theology. This particular catalog lists supplemental reading and suggested literature for all grade levels. Some of the books suggested for 7th grade are "Chosen by God" and "The Holiness of God" by R.C. Sproul (maybe a little too much for my 7th grader right now), for eighth grade "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther, and many other works by authors such as C.S. Lewis, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Homer,etc. The catalog contains descriptions of the books and also articles by R.C. Sproul, Jr. and others. Even if you don't homeschool this catalog is a great resource for reading material for your children, grandchildren or (like me) yourself. To request a catalog go to: www.veritaspress.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 527 Registered: 3-2005 |
Leigh, I checked out your link above. I love their approach to teaching Christian history. I will have to recommend this to my sister who home schools her kids. There is an excellent article there by R.C. Sproul under the resources section about how to teach kids to read. Its called "Who's afraid of the big bad book?" Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 528 Registered: 3-2005 |
Many of you are familiar with J.I. Packer, the author of the Christian classic, "Knowing God". He has written a Foreward to another classical book by the Puritan writer John Owen. This can be read online at www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer_intro.html Packer, in his usual gentlemanly style lays out the clear differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. He points out that the TULIP, or 5 points of Calvinism was just a rebuttal to the 5 points of Arminianism. The TULIP doesn't do justice to what the Calvin world view really is. He questions what is being taught today by the majority of the Evangelical church today, as what amounts to a man centered theology, instead of a God centered theology. He says Calvinism and Arminianism represents two different concepts of salvation. To quote Packer, "One proclaims a God who saves, the other speaks of a God who enables man to save himself." Stan | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2003 |
Stan, I love the Veritas history. I teach the 3rd grade class at the tutorial (Ancient Greece and Rome). I did a lot of reading the summer before I started teaching. One of the lessons towards the end of the year was about the Council of Nicea and the heresy of Arianism. These children know what Arianism is now. I didn't know what Arianism was until just a few years ago. My younger daughter will be in 4th grade this coming year and they will be studying the Middle Ages,Renaissance, and the Reformation. I'm excited about learning along with her. My christian history in school consisted of reading the Great Controversy. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1880 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jess and Stan, I have my membership at the local ELCA. However, in my community are nine churches that offer the members full church privadgles within them. These churches are the local Epispcipilian, the ELCA where I attend, The local Roman Catholic church, the Prespertarian, the Methodist and several other more traditional churches in the area. As such, I do frequently attend Catholic services, almost never missing the Monday evening Prayer and Praise Mass. I like the idea that these nine church bodies have developed in unison, that even though the individuals may prefer one congreation over another we are all bodies in The Holy Catholic/Christian Church and as such have open fellowship with each other in these local nine congreations. We all recite the same Our Father, the same Apoltle's Creed and much of the rest is nearly identical. I like the comaraddiae (sp?). These nine churches also hole several big services eacxh year that is for everyone who attends those congreations. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2288 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, what an interesting analysis of Calvinism and Arminianism by Packer. I have to say that the more I study the Bible, the more I see that God is utterly sovereign. Even our choice (which the Bible clearly says we have) is under the umbrella of God's sovereignty. Romans 9, 10, and 11 have really been "unpacking" this who concept of God's sovereignty for me. Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks, Stan for posting the website for the piece by Packer. True rest comes from believing in a Truly Sovereign God. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 431 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, Thanks for the link on Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I downloaded it, but I haven't read it yet. My wife helps me in doing alot of the reading and research in my online ministry. I frequently refer to Sylvia as "my favorite theologian." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2293 Registered: 12-2003 |
I like that much better than "My favorite author...", Dennis! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 529 Registered: 3-2005 |
I had a chance to re-read that Packer article today. I am still thinking about the implications of what he wrote. Packer is very mild-mannered in the way he speaks when I have heard him do interviews, but this piece is not so mild. If you substitute Adventism every time he uses Arminianism, then you get a picture of our theological roots in Adventism. But, since Adventism came from Arminianism, then to be fair, so did a lot of Pentecostalism and Fundamentalism came from these same roots. Charles Finney, a contemporary of Ellen White, had the greatest influence on what we see today in popular evangelism. Nobody ever heard of the altar call or the invitation to come forward, until Finney made this practice popular. Finney was not just Arminian, he was outright Pelagian in many of his views. He admitted that he used psychological manipulation and music to set the mood, so that all these throngs would come forward to "receive Christ". Studies have been done on popular evangelistic crusades, about the genuineness of many of these "conversions" and it is found that many of the people that come forward do so because many others are doing the same thing. As Packer points out, salvation is something God does at a time of His own choosing. Many people are deceived thinking they have been saved just because they went forward at a crusade, or raised their hand, or filled out a card, or prayed a prayer with a certain formula. They then go out and live their lives with no evidence whatsoever that any conversion took place, yet they believe they are saved. As R.C. Sproul pointed out last week on his radio teaching program, the doctrine of the "limited atonement" is probably the most difficult doctrine of Calvinism to accept, as their are many 4 point Calvinists. But in John 10, when Jesus says that He "lays down His life for the sheep", notice He does not mention the goats. If the Christian church is the Bride of Christ, and to use a human analogy, there should be a special love between a bride and groom. The groom is willing to give his life for his bride if that love is truly special. So how would it make any sense for Christ to die for the unregenerate? As Spurgeon points out, there were already people in Hades when Christ died, so why would he die to pay the penalty for people already in Hades. If we accept the fact that the atonement was a penal substitutionary act, wher Christ payed the penalty for sin, then on what basis would God send anyone to Hell, if the penalty for the sins of everybody in the world were truly paid for? The doctrine of Universalism, then seems to logically follow from a belief in a universal atonement. It seems that liberal SDAs are using an argument that everyone is already saved, but in case you don't want to go, then you have the choice to opt out, and there are no consequences. Packer advances an argument in his piece, that if Christ died for everybody, then He didn't die for anybody, and He didn't therefore secure salvation for anyone. Salvation would then be dependent on our choice and effort. Sproul made the point that if you really believe in Total Depravity, then the rest of the TULIP formula logically falls into place. Any comments? Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 835 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here is something which I have given thought to recently. Jesus did not pay the penalty for the unpardonable sin, did He? So is it possible that He did pay the penalty for everyone's sins, and that the unpardonable sin is the only sin that cannot be forgiven? When Jesus said that "all sins SHALL be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter" (Mark 3:28), did He mean that literally, that all sins even of those who go to hell will be forgiven, except for the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?? I would like some thoughts on this. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 13, 2005) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 892 Registered: 7-2003  |
Jeremy, your thoughts above are consistent with what Bob George of "People to People Ministries" teaches on his radio program and in his books. It is an interesting concept. I wish I could say that I have fully settled all this in my mind, but everytime I am drawn back to the study of free-will vs. predestination (as I am now) I find it consumes me until I put it away again for a little while. It truly vexes my soul that I cannot come to full peace and understanding on this topic. Admittedly, as a logical person I am strongly drawn to Calvinism. Calvinism seems to present such a strong, logical, biblical case that I confess I cannot truly refute it. At the same time, I seem unable to fully accept the teaching that there are some (maybe even a majority) that were created and predestined for destruction in order to bring glory to God and display His justice. The idea that Christ only died for some and not all, and that those who He chose not to die for have never ever had any opportunity for salvation, and never will, is a hard teaching. I think it may just be right, but I have a hard time accepting it. Perhaps this is a failure on my part to bend the knee to scripture or perhaps I am simply reserving judgment on a subject that many great men and women of God have disagreed on. Chris | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 432 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, My wife read the download you gave links to above. She was greatly impressed with the Biblical truth it contained and insisted that I read it as well. Therefore, I am now in the process of carefully reading it. I have already been struck with the fact that Arminianism is really a form of legalism (e.g., God helps me to save myself, I am in control of my salvation, et cetera). Jesus' words in John 6:65 certainly are clear that nobody can come to Him unless he is first called by the Father. Additionally, remember the account of how God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were even born. Judas was chosen so that Scripture might be fulfilled. Pharoah's heart was hardened to bring glory to God. Jesus did not die for those consigned to hell (a dimension of Abraham's bosom). Consequently, the death of Christ has no salvific merit for those not called or elected. Admittedly, I do not pretend to understand the sovereign will and purpose of God. I am content, however, in fully trusting His Word. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 836 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, you mentioned Michael Horton above, but he is not a Calvinist is he? I believe he is a Lutheran, and believes in baptismal regeneration, and that baptism and partaking of the Lord's Supper save us. Here is a quote from a webpage critical of Horton:
Here is the link to the webpage: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/Horton/general.htm Here are some quotes from that same page from Horton's own book, In The Face of God:
This same web site also has an "exposÈ" of Martin Luther: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/luther/ Here is what Charles Spurgeon had to say about baptismal regeneration:
I'd appreciate any thoughts on this subject. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 530 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, You have asked a lot of important questions with your last 2 posts. I am very busy at work right now, but I will get back to you. If you will go to Michael Horton's website at www.whitehorseinn.org, and click on the profile of Michael Horton, you will find that one web site rapidnet is putting out misinformation. Horton is no Lutheran, and if he believes in baptismal regeneration, he hasn't said it in his major books. The book he wrote called "Putting Amazing back into Grace", which is his most important work, is one of the most exciting books you can ever read on the Reformation. I will send you a copy of it, and then I would like your comments. You will see that Horton is grace oriented through and through. The radio program that is archived on the White Horse Inn is classic Reformation Christianity. Also Horton is not a Lutheran, as that web site you posted says he is. He is from a Reformed Presbyterian perspective. Stan |
