| Author | Message | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2004 |
I have been following the GC session with interest. The repackaged baptismal vows really do not seem to change anything. It seems to me that the 1st one is the only one that is biblically sound. The latter two appear to be basically a dehydration of the previous set. I have been waiting all week for the discussion on apostasy.If the topic was presented,it certainly hasn't been reported. My impression continues to be that the party line is that most leave due to non-theological reasons. This of course is rubbish. It's the message and the method. Antiquated,and not theologically relevant or sound. I am continually amazed at the emphasis on the numbers game. How many baptisms, countries entered,evangelistic series preached, tracts distributed, vegetarian meals prepared, church plants,women elected to supporting roles, etc. etc. yada, yada, yada. Somehow this apparently fulfills the mandate to spread the gospel,one pamphlet at a time. Lip service is given to understanding the Gospel and grace, but the numbers still reign supreme. Something about rearanging deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind. Till we meet again,your neighbor to the north Randy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1711 Registered: 3-2004  |
When Jesus is not the emphasis, the time and space has to be filled with something and to look "good" it is done with numbers. Of course, numbers have nothing to do with salvation. That is so sad. Jesus is all any of us need and they do not realize this. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2004 |
Diana, Insightful,succinct,concise, and spot on. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 428 Registered: 4-2000  |
The SDA Kinship International Kampmeeting begins today at St. Louis University. So, the impact on the St. Louis metroplex is not yet over (smile). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1714 Registered: 3-2004 |
So, let us put that on our prayer list as we pray each day. God does hear our prayers and knows best how to handle each individual. Thank you for Jesus. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1879 Registered: 11-2002 |
Heretic, #2 of the abridged vows includes the Fundamental 27 (28?). Therefore, they are not changed at all. And, yes, SDA's like to get bapitized numerous times. For some reason that I can't figure our partaking in the Eucharist is just not enuf to a lot of SDA's. So, after a relapse, weather it be in grave sin or a relapse into a Sunday-keep church, hence leaving the one true church, the main way to reconcile themselves back into God's mercy is to get dunked, again and again. I know one SDA who has been bapitized as an SDA four times. I know several who have done it three times. They seem to not fall for the Christian teaching of one bapitism. Frankly, tho I did ask the Lutheran pastor to baptise me. He wasn't going to at first but then I explained to him that when I was 17 and asked for Christian bapitism on profession of Christian faith from the SDA minister and the minister refused telling me it was only a valid bapitism if I also became an Adventist so that Is what I did, then the Lutheran pastor bapitized me. However, at age 17 several weeks after becomming an official SDA I wrote a letter to the local church as well as to the conference requesting my name be eliminated. I have periodically done that over the years. I have never received a reply from the Adventists. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 136 Registered: 2-2005 |
Exactly. Yes, I know #2 includes the 27 or 28 or whatever fundamentals. Nothing has changed about the content of the vows. What has changed is the comprehensiveness of the wording, designed to be more appealing to the youth of the church (if not potential converts, as well), which was explicitly stated in the GC article as mentioned above. The only difference between them is that the new, alternative one doesn't list out things like the SOP, remnant, etc. So what is it then that makes it more appealing to them? Why would they even do this? Just to save time in church? Could it be that it gives greater license to "water down" issues that aren't popular with youth? This was also addressed in the article: If there was concern that the wording didn't give "sufficient representation of what Adventists believe", does it not follow that the alternative could be "insufficient representation of what Adventists believe?" What was the reasoning behind this move, then? Heretic | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2003 |
Question for Colleen and Dennis: Is that it? Is that all the GC is going to do and say at this General Congress to counteract the growing number of folks not only leaving, but learning about EGW's "borrowings"? I thought they were going to show a more forceful response. Am I missing something? Pradez | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 960 Registered: 7-2003  |
Is anyone bothered by the word "baptismal candidate"? Baptism is supposed to be an outward sign of an internal conversion, but rather than baptism being a rejoicing of that internal change, it becomes ... what? With all the examples in scripture of baptism and the "when", how on earth can they justify making it about adventism or any of their so-called truths? As soon as you move off point number 1 and require anything else, you've just moved Christ to a level playing field with items 2 and 3 and all the undertow those items demand. How does an SDA truly feel this is a Biblical expression when someone else (other than God) gets to approve of your decision to be baptised? This whole thing is very unsettling for me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2279 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with your obervations, Melissa. As far as GC goes, I'm really not surprised they haven't shown more of a response. My sense (which is only my sense, not "informed"), is that with the growth in 3rd world countries, they are having to spend a lot of time on establishing the church there and unifying it. That, after all, is really where the membership is. The third world does not have the internet access the Western world has, and those people are currently less likely to discover the reality of what Adventism is. I did hear Paulsen make quite a big deal about the youth becoming involved--but again, this wish is not easily fulfilled because programs will not make the youth involved. The quickening change of the Holy Spirit makes youth involved--but promises of involvement and roles to play will not hold them. It's all quite interesting and enigmatic--at least publicly (at least not in the programs I saw), they didn't deal with the large exodus from the N American church. It's that elephant in the room again... Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 429 Registered: 4-2000 |
Just a quick note before dinner. I noticed online that Dr. Graz, from the GC Public Relations Department, indicated in his session remarks that the SDA Church now consists of 25 million people--11 million more members than when the GC Session started a few days ago(smile). I am a subscriber to daily Google alerts on Adventism. Some days one can feel like crying and/or laughing. The daily Google alerts are cost-free. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 203 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dennis, I also subscribe to those alerts and finally stopped reading them much of the time. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1719 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I really like the "elephant" in the living room you talk about. That is so true. Dennis, So the membership has jumped since the session opened by 11 million members. MY, MY!!! How did that happen in 9 days??? Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2283 Registered: 12-2003 |
Richard (my husband) just commented that this is the third membership figure he heard come out of GC. The first was the 16,000,000 we heard Finley say at the opening of the session. The second Richard heard was 13 or 14 million, this figure from another person. Now it's 25,000,000. When I read your Google news item to him just minutes ago, Dennis, he laughed and said, "Yeah, those PR people..." (His degree is in public relations!) Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 166 Registered: 6-2001  |
i think the 25 million includes children. Logically, Hannah | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 240 Registered: 5-2004 |
Well, in thumbing through the Review this morning I saw a few things, and then pulled the links from the website. (sorry if anyone's already posted any of this, but I wasn't sure) http://www.adventistreview.org/2005bulletin/bulletin7-actions.html In the past five years the Seventh-day Adventist Church has exploded in growth, and we can praise God that 5,049,157 accessions to the church through baptism and profession of faith have taken place. But at the same time we lament the fact that in this same five-year period 1,397,608 people have been dropped from church membership. That becomes a serious problem. Is it possible to reverse the churchís high apostasy rate? And do we have any examples on a divisionwide basis in which there has been an intentional approach on the part of conferences and unions and divisions to reduce apostasy, and can we measure it statistically? I would like to look at one division in particular. The South American Division has become a positive example of apostasy rate reversal. The secretaryís report for the South American Division in the year 2000 indicated that the apostasy rate in South America in 2000 was approximately what the apostasy rate is all over the world today. It was 33 percent in 2000. The South American Division took a look at that. Recent discussions with Elder Roy Nagel indicate that the apostasy rate in South America is now running at 18 percent. Now, that is a dramatic reversal, so the question becomes How was it achieved? The South American Division leadership reports that they have implemented a strategy of small groups throughout that division that in their mind have made a dramatic difference in reversing those apostasy rates. That may be something for other divisions in the world to take a look at. Church growth thinkers list the following reasons that people leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church and churches in general. 1. Conflict with a pastor or another church member. 2. Discouragement over personal problems. 3. Lack of friends. Church growth studies indicate that if you do not establish a set of new friends within the church within the first year after you are baptized, your likelihood of leaving increases. 4. A weak biblical faith. A number of studies indicate that when people have a weak biblical faith, when they do not understand what they are doing in joining a religious community of Seventh-day Adventists, they are likely to leave more quickly. 5. The perception on the part of some that have joined a church, a fellowship of believers, that it is not relevant to their needs. 6. Lack of a house of worship. In many places where there are mass baptisms, studies indicate that if a house of worship is not provided for those new believers, the likelihood for them to leave rises exponentially. So I guess those of us who've left...fall under a weak biblical faith?...hum. I find it amazing that they still can't just come out and say that some don't agree with them. There was a panel on apostacy, but it still hasn't been written up, or posted on the web. I can't wait to hear those interviews! | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2003 |
Has anyone else had "post sda event troubles"? Everytime we have family who go to GC sessions, ASI, 3ABN campmeeting, they are almost giddy when they return, but it's not about be swept away in the wonders of the cross and Christ's sacrifice, it's about being Adventist and being excited about a new book, meeting their favorite adventist celebrity, etc. Then we receive a book, this year it is a Goldstien one. Last year it was an autographed Batchelor book, then it was a Danny Shelton book. I just needed to vent! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 595 Registered: 1-2003 |
Why is leaving the SDA church called Apostasy? That word has bad connotations in my opinion. | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2005 |
Leigh, I was at the 3ABN campmeeting in May. A friend of mine was down there visiting. I didn't know what to expect, and it was kind of odd in a way that you described well. Mostly older people were there, and they really did seem to be more excited about the 3ABN celebs and everything uniquely Adventist than they were about worshiping Jesus. Just my personal observation. Before they started taping one of the shows, Danny Shelton cracked a joke about someone bringing pork and beans to an Adventist potluck, and I think some took him seriously because there were gasps and terrified looks on some of the faces around me. I just wanted to puke. When they realized it was a joke they were so relieved. Part of me gets so annoyed by things like that, and then another part of me feels sad for and protective of Adventists (people not doctrine). I guess because I am still so new to making a decision about what I believe and where I stand. It is just sad that the truth about grace and freedom is right there in front of them, but they cannot see it. They cling so tightly to the other garbage. You cannot smell the sweetness of Jesus when you have your head in the garbage can. Only when you respond to His shoulder tapping and come out do you realize how much better He alone is. Then that garbage smells even worse than it did before. Julie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2285 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very intresting statistics, Esther. Thank you. I guess you're right; we here would probably be ranked under "weak biblical faith". I agree with you; I just wish they'd ADMIT that many people leave because they can't agree with the doctrines. Somehow admitting that would cause them to reveal their vulnerability, it seems. Leaving Adventism is called "apostasy" because one "leaves the truth". True apostasy is forsaking Jesus and God's promises and going one's own worldly way, as Israel did again and again. In Adventism, however, the myth of the "one true church" is encouraged by calling leaving "apostasy". What a frightening consequence for someone to face if they don't know their security lies in Jesus. Thinking they are apostatizing by leaving connotes rejecting God and being lost. Talk about that elephant in the room... Praise God for choosing us and bringing us to Himself! Colleen |
