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Ric_b
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Post Number: 276
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A formerJW has asked about some comparisons between JW and SDAism on CARM. They are looking for any EGW references regarding:
Did she teach that the SDA's were the 144000 in Rev or not?
Did she believe herself to be in that class?
Did she teach that this remnant is the "ark" or not?

I recall reading about a vision where she describes herself along with the 144,000 but couldn't locate it quickly. Any help on that or these other questions would be most appreciated.
Pheeki
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about the path to heaven and the ones who fell off? Maybe start there?
Ric_b
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mostly I'm hoping someone knows the reference or has an idea for finding it quickly. There are days that searching through, and thus having to read even small bits of, her writings is just too Spiritually draining. Today is one of those days.
Freeatlast
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric, just to to www.ellenwhite.com and do a full text search using "144,000". You will be able to answer the first 2 of your questions immediately.
Ric_b
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even then I have to read too many paragraphs of her writings to verify the context and pick out the clearest statements. Right now I just want to stay away from that, even to prove my point!
Chris
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spake the time, He poured upon us the Holy Spirit, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. (1T 59.1)

The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads were the words God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and they would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us, who could wash one another's feet, and salute the brethren with a holy kiss, and they worshiped at our feet. (1T 59.2)

Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence we all gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, and became lighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire; a rainbow was over the cloud, while around it were ten thousand angels, singing a most lovely song; and upon it sat the Son of man. His hair was white and curly and lay on His shoulders, and upon His head were many crowns. His feet had the appearance of fire; in His right hand was a sharp sickle, in His left a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched His children through and through. (1T 60.1)

Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out: "Who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless?" The angels ceased to sing, and there was a time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke: "Those who have clean hands and pure hearts shall be able to stand; My grace is sufficient for you." At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sang again, while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as He descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised His eyes and hands to heaven, and cried: "Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise." Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, "Alleluia!" as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed, and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. (1T 60.2)

We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city. Jesus raised His mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate, swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us: "You have washed your robes in My blood, stood stiffly for My truth, enter in." We all marched in and felt we had a perfect right there. (1T 60.3)




Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric_b,

Regarding the second question, the White Estate claims this:


quote:

Ellen G. White and the 144,000. Nowhere in the Ellen G. White writings is there a statement to the effect that Mrs. White would be one of the 144,000. As recorded in Early Writings, page 40, the angel did tell her when, in vision, she seemed to be visiting another planet and desired to remain there, that "if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds," etc. See also the statement in Selected Messages, book 2, p. 263.

--http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-mist.html#mistaken-section-c3




Here is the last part of the (long) paragraph from Early Writings:


quote:

I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, "You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God." (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 39, paragraph 3.)




The SDAs though (including Arthur White in his biography of Ellen) like to point out that she didn't say she would be "ONE of" the 144,000, only that she would be WITH the 144,000!

The following quote may be helpful in answering the first two questions in your post:


quote:

As God has shown me the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City and the rich reward to be given those who wait the return of their Lord from the wedding, it may be my duty to give you a short sketch of what God has revealed to me.

[...]

While I was praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell upon me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me, "Look again, and look a little higher." At this I raised my eyes, and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the city, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the beginning of the path, which an angel told me was the midnight cry. This light shone all along the path and gave light for their feet so that they might not stumble. If they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the city, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the city was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising His glorious right arm, and from His arm came a light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted, "Alleluia!" Others rashly denied the light behind them and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus, and fell off the path down into the dark and wicked world below. Soon we[* SEE APPENDIX.] heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai.

The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and they would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us who could wash one another's feet and salute the brethren with a holy kiss, and they worshiped at our feet.

Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man.

[...]


Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as He descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised His eyes and hands to heaven, and cried, "Awake! awake! awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise." Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, "Alleluia!" as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city. Jesus raised His mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate, swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us, "You have washed your robes in My blood, stood stiffly for My truth, enter in." We all marched in and felt that we had a perfect right in the city. (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, pages 13-16.)




So it sounds like "the Advent people" are the 144,000. And she also clearly included herself in the group! Once again, the White Estate is lying to us.

And now I see that Chris has beat me to it and already posted part of that last quote. :-)

Regarding the 3rd question, I did a search for "remnant" and "ark" and she doesn't say that the remnant is the ark (at least not while using both of those words in the same paragraph anyway).

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on July 26, 2005)
Chris
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I should probably provide some context for the paragraphs above. In the paragraph immediately proceeding the ones I posted, EGW is speaking in reference to "the advent people". Later in the vision she seems to include herself in this "advent band" or "144,000".


quote:

It was not long after the passing of the time in 1844 that my first vision was given me. I was visiting a dear sister in Christ, whose heart was knit with mine; five of us, all women, were kneeling quietly at the family altar. While we were praying, the power of God came upon me as I had never felt it before. I seemed to be surrounded with light, and to be rising higher and higher from the earth. I turned to look for the advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me: "Look again, and look a little higher." At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the advent people were traveling toward the city. Behind them, at the beginning of the path, was a bright light which an angel told me was the midnight cry. This light shone all along the path, that their feet might not stumble. Jesus Himself went just before His people to lead them forward, and as long as they kept their eyes fixed on Him, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the city was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising His glorious right arm, from which came a light that waved over the advent band; and they shouted: "Alleluia!" Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus, and fell off the path down into the dark and wicked world below. (1T 58.4)



Chris
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops, we must have been posting at the same time Jeremy.
Ric_b
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to both of you.
Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can understand not wanting to read through EGW's writings--in fact, I didn't even read every word of what I posted from her!

Here is another interesting comparison between JW's and EGW, that I've had in a Microsoft Word document:


quote:

EGW & JWs Both Say Don't Love Your Enemies

Ellen G. White Says:

"Then I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies; but that should not cause us or lead us to pray for the wicked world, whom God had rejected -- when he prayed for his enemies, there was hope for them, and they could be benefitted and saved by his prayers, and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world; but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be with Jesus, and must be withdrawn from the ungodly.... I saw that the wicked could not be benefitted by our prayers now... Then I saw that scripture did not mean the wicked whom God had rejected that we must love, but he meant our neighbors in the household, and did not extend beyond the household; yet I saw that we should not do the wicked around us any injustice; -- But, our neighbors whom we were to love, were those who loved God and were serving him.

(Signed) E. G. White." (The Camden Vision, Camden, N. Y. June 29, 1851.)

The Jehovah's Witnesses Say:

"Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to 'hate what is bad.' When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked." (Watchtower, July 15, 1961, page 420.)

The BIBLE Says:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44 KJV.)




Jeremy
Marcell
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What stands out to me in that long quote is theat the wicked "fell down and worshiped at OUR feet" not at Jesus' feet. hmmmmm
Ric_b
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is a most interesting observation, and may say more about SDAism and EGW than any of our words.

Also notice that in her vision, Ellen is among those who are alive at Christ's return.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great points, Marcell and Ric. One other thing that strikes me as well is that the "Advent band" to whom she keeps referring were, when she wrote, the Adventists who were alive after the Great Disappointment. I wonder if the White Estate's distancing themselves from Ellen's clear inclusion of herself among the 144,000 has to do with the fact that those early writings apparently equated the 144,000 living saints with the saints of the Shut Door theory.

I grew up being taught that no one knows who the 144,000 are. I believe that is the official church line. Clearly, though, in these early writings, Ellen thought she knew who they were and that she was among them. She wrote these things shortly after the Great Disappointment, and the Shut Door theory was around until the early 1850's.

It seems the White Estate has provided us with another example of "obscurantism" by means of these semantic games. Wow, they even interpret Ellen out of context!

Praise God for the Bible and for Jesus!

Colleen
Susan_2
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Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, Jeremy, are we to conclude that the Bible is wrong and that there really are 144,001?
Jeremy
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Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Susan, I think they claim that only the "saints" (perfect Adventists) that are alive at Jesus' coming are the 144,000 and that the ones who have died are part of a different "group."

But it gets very confusing with all of EGW's statements, some of which were due to the belief that Jesus was coming back right away.

Jeremy
Jackob
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They believed that the sealing has begun and they were in the "sealing time". After that they renounced the belief that the sealing has begun, and projected it in the future, and of course, nobody could be in the present a member of the 144 000. And they are left with the old statements which needed explications without bringing to the front the fact that, at that moment, they had believed that the sealing of the 144 000 has begun.

Ellen White said:

Satan is now using every device in this sealing time to keep the minds of God's people from the present truth and to cause them to waver. I saw a covering that God was drawing over His people to protect them in the time of trouble; and every soul that was decided on the truth and was pure in heart was to be covered with the covering of the Almighty. {EW 43.2}

Jackob
Riverfonz
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I could be mistaken about this, but didn't EGW teach that all those who die in the 3rd angel's message (since the SDA church came along) and of course herself be resurrected as a special group before Christ comes so they can witness it and be translated with the others who are still alive?

Stan
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, you're right, Stan. I wonder if that convenient "explanation" was invented to try to change the original meaning of those early statements about her being one of the "living saints."

Jeremy
Riverfonz
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is this special eschatological focus that EGW taught, and what is believed by traditional Adventism, that was very influential in convincing Anthony Hoekema, who wrote the book "Four Major Cults", which included SDAs, and was written after Walter Martin's book, that Adventism was indeed a cult. He emphasized the fact that SDAs teach that all the end time events all revolve around THEM and them alone. The rest of the world will be blaming Adventists for all the plagues, because this peculiar little group worship on Saturday instead of Sunday! Therefore, the death decree will go out to kill all the Sabbath-keepers, and then before they can be killed, then Christ comes to rescue them.
Does anyone remember that drama or "play" written by Merikay McCleod, which re-enacts this scenario? I can surely remember this being played out one night at Soquel campmeeting, and many were moved to tears, because they thought this was going to happen at any time, and there would be a national Sunday law at any time!
Well, now we can all laugh at this stuff, but growing up, it was very real. But it was this type of cultic mentality that classified Adventism as a cult in Hoekema's thinking, in addition to the unbiblical IJ.

Stan
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not remember seeing the play, but I sure do remember the teaching. It is amazing, and I thank God for that, that I forgot most of that "stuff". It comes back when some one mentions it.
Thank You God for not letting me dwell on all that "stuff".
Diana
Carol_2
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Was that the book we talked about quite a few months back on this forum? The book "Now" (I think that was the name.) If so, check it out Stan, we all had some pretty frightening memories of that book!
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, that was a good discussion. It's on the following thread, starting in the "Archive through November 17, 2004": http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2427.html

Jeremy
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm.....that play is ringing some bells....

Was it called "Catacombs" maybe?

Chris
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was called "Now"--unless there was another one, too. It was written by Merikay Silver--the same one who was an editor at Pacific Press and sued for equal pay for equal work (early 70's, I believe). I don't think she had a clue what she was facing. She lost her job, of course, but the church did have to equalize its pay to women as a result of her suit.

Douglas Hackelmann recorded her story in a self-published book in the 80s. I cannot remember the title of his book now, but his publishing company was Mars Hill.

He told some pretty astonishing stories about church officials (including Neil Wilson, etc.) not telling the truth under oath, etc.

Colleen
Raven
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 5:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The book I have about the Merikay Silver story when she sued the Pacific Press, is called Betrayal. It was published in 1985 by Mars Hill Publications and the author is Merikay McLeod (the current name of Merikay Silver in 1985). Is that the book you're referring to?

We bought this book in the mid-80's from the Andrews University Bookstore and have read it more than once since then. It is a fascinating book.
Brian2
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was a camper at Glacier View in Colorado the staff put on a play every Friday night. It was about the end time, being put on trial, then jail for some and one group was being chased through the woods with "gun shots" and all. Until the timely second coming that saved the some of the members of the "faithful". This was in the late 1970's through early 1980's they did the play 4-5 years in a row. Could that have been the same play? Scarey stuff for a kid.

Brian
Jackob
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You make me curios about the book "Now". Has anyone of you the book in Word or html? In exchange I give the book "Betrayal" in html. It was on the web in 2002, and fortunately I saved it on my computer. It has only 600 kb.

Jackob
Seekr777
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, where is "Douglas Hackelmann" now? I believe I knew him overseas as a kid.

Richard

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