| Author | Message | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2004 |
can anyone tell me how to find a good study on the law versus the cerimonial law? I was reading in Collossians where Paul talks about the written code being nailed to the cross. In my NIV helps at the bottom of the page it said that Paul was referring to the cerimonial laws. Just hoping that someone can direct me to a good study about this...............thanx | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 669 Registered: 3-2005 |
Schasc, Here is a good discussion at this link posted originally under the New Covenant thread www.soundofgrace.com/tablets/tos.html. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2428 Registered: 12-2003  |
Schasc--in addition to the link Stan gave above, the article in the recent Proclamation by McGregor Wright is excellent. It's entitled "The Unity of the Law" and subtitled "What was nailed to the cross?". Also, Dale Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Christ" deals with this subject. In my NIV study Bible, the note on Colossians 2:14 says this: "written code: A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwriting. Paul uses it as a designation for the Mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God." In Adventist terms, "Mosaic law" brings up "ceremonial law". Actually, this designation is incomplete and is not Biblical. The Ten Commandments were also part of the Mosaic law. Nowhere does the Bible separate the Mosaic law into moral, ceremonial, and civil laws. The entire lawóthe entire Torahóis an inseparable whole. The Jews have never seen the Ten Commandments as more permanent or more binding than the rest of the 613 law of the Torah. When Paul talks in Galatians and in Colossians and in Romans about not being under the law, the law being nailed to the cross, the law coming 430 years AFTER Abraham UNTIL the Seed would come, he is referring to the entire Torah, including the Ten Commandments. The Bible never separates the Ten from the rest of the law. In fact, in Exodus 34:28, the Ten Commandments are called "the words of the covenant". The covenant, of course, was the Mosaic covenant--the covenant mediated by Moses at Sinai. Far from being a separate, eternal entity, the Ten Commandments were the core of the Sinai covenant. In fact, the study notes say this: "the words of the covenantóthe Ten Commandments: The two phrases are synonymous." Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 126 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen: May I cut and paste some of your thoughts from above? The Holy Spirit is (I think) leading some dear friends out of Adventism, and I'd love to give them this wonderful, concise synopsis of the problem with ceremonial/civil/moral laws. Patria | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2005 |
Coleen and all, Until I recognized, through reading "Sabbath in Crisis", the difference in the Mosaic and New Covenant, I was very confused. I couldn't understand a lot of what I read in the scriptures. After learning the difference the scriptures became alive. I believe this is a good place to start when the opportunity to witness SDA's comes. boB | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2437 Registered: 12-2003 |
Patria, cut and paste all you want! I understand, Bobalou. That book opened my eyes as well. How amazing the new covenant is! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 140 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you Colleen! Bobalou: me too! Sabbath in Christ is such a great book! I just ordered 2 more so I have them on hand to give out. I also want to find out how to get it on CD. Patria | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 176 Registered: 2-2005 |
You know, I can look back now, after having my eyes opened to the truths of the Old vs. New Covenants, at some of the things I was missing in my spiritual life (which was nearly non-existent). One thing that stands out was my understanding of the person and role of the Holy Spirit which continues to develop on a day by day basis. It really annoys me when folks accuse New Covenant Christians of anti-nomianism, and not just because Christ gave us a new Law in all that He taught during his earthly ministry. I've been listening to Bryan Clark's excellent series on Ephesians on CD as I drive between patients and today he was talking about being filled with the Spirit. It really hit home when he talked about the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, as described in John 14, and just what this means. He pointed out how at the moment we trust in Jesus, the Spirit indwells us and is with us 24/7. He sees what we watch, how we treat others, every business transaction, everything, ALWAYS. In this regard, in our minds, if we put a face on it and imagine that it's Jesus indwelling us and working through us, how could we ever be lawless barbarians when He is now perpetually with us? He talked about how when we become filled with the Spirit, we become literally "controlled by" the Spirit as its described in the Greek. Again, it doesn't logically follow that we'd then want to run out with a license to do whatever transgression we chose. It just seems like anyone who could make this claim lacks understanding of the Holy Spirit, also. Clark's illustration really opened my eyes for some reason today. It's moments like these that make me realize that I'm such a "Baby Christian." Praise God that He has given us the promised Holy Spirit to lead us into spiritual maturity and to seal us as a guarantee that we belong to Him! Heretic | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic: I have experienced very similar thoughts and emotions while going through this process. One of the first questions I encountered was, "how do you know how to act if you don't believe the 10 commandments are still in effect?" I was so stunned, it took me a second to gather my thoughts and answer. Looking back, I remember thinking things like that, but now, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it seems so obvious. The thing is that my life is so much more Christ-like now than when I believed the 10 commandments were the sum total of God's moral laws. They didn't address my heart and mind issues. It is so difficult to watch my friends and family who are still in the bondage of legalism, trying to 'do it right'. Living such false guilt-ridden lives. (Don't get me wrong! I am fully cognizant of the fact that God still has A LOT of work to do in me!) I also just recently told someone that I realized I am a baby Christian! It's such a strange feeling when I've felt like I had some corner on 'truth' my whole life...then to realize that I knew NOTHING. Quite humbling really. With overwhelming Joy! Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2472 Registered: 12-2003 |
Patria and Heretic, I completely relate to your experiences. I remember Richard saying repeatedly, after we began attending Trinity, that it was such a revelation to discover that we were baby Christians. Living by the Spirit is a completely new reality. I know as surely as I'm typing these words that most people would read them and go, "um-hmh" and proceed to discuss theological fine points and interpretations of the law. I cannot get over the awareness that being born again really IS becoming a new creation--it's not just a metaphor for God forgiving you. When the Holy Spirit indwells you and brings your spirit to life, you ARE A DIFFERENT CREATURE. You are now an adopted son of God and a joint-heir with Christ. You now literally carry the actual presence of Jesus into the world wherever you go. You now actually have the mind of Christ in you: the Holy Spirit. You are now ACTUALLY one with Christ and seated with Him at the right hand of the Father. There are two distinct types of people on earth: the natural humans and the born-again humans. They are not the same. One group is dead; one is alive. This new birth is what brings the sword Jesus said the gospel would introduce between family members and friends. The presence of Jesus Himself in those of us who accept Him is a powerfully convicting reality to those around us who do not know Him. The presence of Jesus in us roots us in truth and makes us able to know what is real and not live in denial. That kind of truthful responsiveness to the Holy Spirit shines the light on the darkness of hiding and pretending that marks those who are not surrendered to Him. This reality of the literal new birth into new creations is why true Christianity is not "tolerant". It is divinely loving, but it is not tolerant of untruth. This is the sword that divides people. Praise God for making us His! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 708 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, What you just said is absolutely dead on target. All these tendencies in our day of tolerating every kind of false doctrine in the name of political correctness, the blurring of the lines between faith and works, lack of clarity on the true gospel based on the solas of the reformation with Luther openly being discredited by so-called evangelical scholars who claim that he misinterpreted Paul, are all evidences of what you are saying--the differences between the naural man, and those who are truly regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Those who trust the Holy Spirit to guide them seem to come to an understanding of scriptural essentials of the faith, but the natural man is always trying to attack the very foundations of our faith whether it be justification by faith alone, the substitutionary atonement, or adding some other authority (Pope, EGW, charismatic visions,) to scripture. Stan | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 788 Registered: 7-2000 |
Heretic, Patria, Colleen, & Stan... I agree very much with your thoughts! You know, I remember years ago thinking I needed the TEN COMMANDMENTS posted in my home to read each day...so I wouldn't forget them! Living by the Spirit's indwelling is so much better!...definitely more comprehensive and yet so much more restful and secure. grace always, cindy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1820 Registered: 3-2004  |
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN to all Heretic, Patria, Colleen and Stan have said. And Cindy, having the indwelling Spirit is so much better. It is definitely more restful and secure. God, you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 360 Registered: 10-2000 |
Schasc, I don't know if this will help you regarding what Law is being spoken about, but, read 2 Corinthians 3:3-9. Verse 7 comes right out and names the 10 commandments as being done away with in the New Covenant. Read all of Chapter 3 in 2 Corinthians to get the context. These verses cannot be denied. Blessings in your study, Denise | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 635 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you, Denise, for pointing that out. Our brainwashing that the NT scriptures are just a bit wishy-washy on this topic must be completely done away with if we are ever going to be able to deal with our SDA friends and families who come to us searching for truth. We must also trust and pray that they will. Belva | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanx Denise.............I have never read that before in this way! How do adventists traditionally view that chapter? To be honest with you I dont really know! I know that I have read that before, but cant even say what a typical adventist reaction would be..........Thanks for pointing me to this as I contiue to study.......... | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 150 Registered: 3-2005 |
Schasc: I believe the typical Adventist view would be to say that 'the law' that was nailed to the cross is just the 'ceremonial' parts of the law. To my knowledge, they have never adequately answered the question about the 'stone tablets' being mentioned specifically as part of the Old Covenant that has been nailed to the Cross. It's downright amazing when that veil comes off isn't it!!! Patria p.s. I have JUST been discussing this with the Lincoln FAF. If you'd like, I can see if someone can send you our posts on it. | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2004 |
yeah that would be great! you have my email Thanx schasc |
