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Dinolf
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Username: Dinolf

Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear all

I am so amazed that a question about serving coffee or not can be a totally heartbreaking questions for Adventists. They rather leave church than participate in serving a cup of coffee in church. Or my own reaction - it could be the question pushing me over the edge to leave adventism (among others...)
This is really a miniour question, but how can it be such a big issue for adventists? How precise is EGW about coffedrinking and do she condemn coffedringing as a negative, even sinful habit? Please - do'nt take to much time digging into this, but it would be very helpful if you can help findings the EGW-quotations that apperantly leads adventists to react so strongly.

Jesus is Lord

Bless

/D
Jerry
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Username: Jerry

Post Number: 467
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are a couple of quick quotes:

Tea is poisonous to the system . . . The influence of coffee is in a degree the same as tea, but the effect upon the system is still worse. Its influence is exciting, and just in the degree that it elevates above par, it will exhaust and bring prostration below par. Tea and coffee drinkers carry the marks upon their faces. The skin becomes sallow, and assumes a lifeless appearance. The glow of health is not seen upon the countenance. {CD 421.1}

It is a most forcible warning against the use of such stimulants and narcotics as tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, and morphine. These indulgences may well be classed among the lusts that exert a pernicious influence upon moral character. The earlier these hurtful habits are formed, the more firmly will they hold their victim in slavery to lust, and the more certainly will they lower the standard of spirituality. {RH, January 25, 1881 par. 24}

If you go to www.ellenwhite.com (the white estate web site), you can search her writings for coffee and you will find many quotes about the sinfulness of coffee.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 948
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dinolf, yes EGW did condemn coffee drinking as a sin! Here are a few quotes from Ellen G. White's writings:


quote:

"Tea and coffee drinking is a sin, an injurious indulgence, which, like other evils, injures the soul. These darling idols create an excitement, a morbid action of the nervous system. " (Temperance, page 80, paragraph 1.)

"Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea and coffee, and rich and unhealthful food preparations, and who are determined to make a covenant with God by sacrifice, will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Nine, page 153, paragraph 4.)

"Only by the inexpressible anguish which Christ endured can we estimate the evil of unrestrained indulgence. His example declares that our only hope of eternal life is through bringing the appetites and passions into subjection to the will of God." (The Desire of Ages, page 122, paragraph 2.)

"Tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcohol we must present as sinful indulgences. We cannot place on the same ground, meat, eggs, butter, cheese, and such articles placed upon the table. These are not to be borne in front, as the burden of our work. The former--tea, coffee, tobacco, beer, wine, and all spiritous liquors--are not to be taken moderately, but discarded. The poisonous narcotics are not to be treated in the same way as the subject of eggs, butter, and cheese." (Selected Messages, Book 3, page 287, paragrah 2.)

"Make it the law of your life to touch not, taste not, handle not, beer, fermented wine, tea, coffee, or tobacco." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Eighteen, page 257, paragraph 1.)

"In relation to tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcoholic drinks, the only safe course is to touch not, taste not, handle not." (The Ministry of Healing, page 335, paragraph 3.)




Of course, those last two quotes go directly against what the Bible says in Colossians 2--that it's the false prophets having visions who teach people to "touch not, taste not, handle not"!!

Jeremy
Dinolf
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Username: Dinolf

Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for comments. The quote below even states that coffee/tea-drinkers can not appreciate the value of spiritual things. That means that according to EGW my spiritual experience can't be trusted if I stands under the influence of coffee. I can feel the distrust from the "EGWarians" making that conclusion :-(

Well - in practice my only hope stands to my Saviour, and my spritual experience tells me that His grace is good even for me. No one can take that away from me - or any other coffeedrinker...

God Bless

/D

Quote:
"Tea and coffee are stimulating. Their effects are similar to those of tobacco; but they affect in a less degree. Those who use these slow poisons, like the tobacco user, think they can not live without them, because they feel so very badly, when they do not have these idols. Why they suffer when they discontinue the use of these stimulants, is because they have been breaking down nature in her work of preserving the entire system in harmony and in health. They will be troubled with dizziness, headache, numbness, nervousness, and irritability. They feel as though they should go all to pieces, and some have not courage to persevere in abstaining from them till abused nature recovers, but again resort to the use of the same hurtful things. They do not give nature time to recover the injury they have done her, but for present relief return to these hurtful indulgences. Nature is continually growing weaker, and less capable of recovering. But if they will be determined in their efforts to persevere and overcome, abused nature will soon again rally, and perform her work wisely and well without these stimulants. The whole system, under the influence of these stimulants often becomes intoxicated. And to just that degree that the nervous system is excited by false stimulants, will be the prostration which will follow after the influence of the exciting cause has abated. This prostration may in time be overcome by abstaining from the use of those things which created such a condition in the system. Those who indulge a perverted appetite, do it to the injury of health and intellect. They can not appreciate the value of spiritual things. Their sensibilities are blunted, and sin does not appear very sinful, and truth is not regarded of greater value than earthly treasure." F. of F.--Vol. 2, pp. 128-129
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 648
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Definitely Dinolf. You did see the comment on another thread here that coffee may be the single most beneficial source of antioxidants on planet earth. Too bad Mrs. W. isn't around to find out about that. All her talk about sallow complexions and such really can't hold a lot of water around that sort of information.

I know that when Jesus sat down to the table to eat with publicans he also probably sipped the wine they served. In modern times I feel confident he would have shared a cup of coffee with us.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 740
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And now we have many objective scientific medical studies proving that coffee, tea, beer, and wine are good for you in moderation. Just drink every beverage EGW tells you not to drink in moderation and you will have better health according to the bulk of evidence.

Stan
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 240
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My husband had surgery this summer and when the surgeon asked if he drank, he said yes, wine a glass at night or so. The surgeon told him to keep on the wine was good for his heart. There was no question in this MD's mind.
Windmotion
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Username: Windmotion

Post Number: 191
Registered: 6-2001


Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, here's a question from the devil's advocate. It is known that even drinking a moderate amount of wine during pregnancy can place your child on the spectrum of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, why doesn't the Bible say something about pregnant women not drinking wine? Was the wine back then much lower in alcohol content?
"Spirit"ually,
Hannah
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 949
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Answer: The Bible is not a health textbook. :-)

Ellen G. White, however, actually wrote that pregnant women SHOULD drink wine!!!


quote:

Her system craved material to convert into blood, but he would not provide it. A moderate amount of milk and sugar, and a little salt, white bread raised with yeast for a change, graham flour prepared in a variety of ways by other hands than her own, plain cake with raisins, rice pudding with raisins, prunes, and figs, occasionally, and many other dishes I might mention, would have answered the demand of appetite. If he could not obtain some of these things, a little domestic wine would have done her no injury; it would have been better for her to have it than to do without it. In some cases, even a small amount of the least hurtful meat would do less injury than to suffer strong cravings for it." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, page 383, paragraph 4.)




This is one of the most absolutely astounding quotes ever written by EGW! Notice how she just totally throws out all of her "health reform" and says that this pregnant woman should have had just about everything she ever condemned--milk and sugar, white bread with yeast, cake, pudding, and even wine and meat!!!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on September 05, 2005)
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1034
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah, I don't think the alcohol of today is remotely related to what it was 2000 years ago, but that dismisses God's omnipotence to say "he didn't know" what we would be seeing today.

I'm curious about the statistics of FAS in countries like France where wine seems as common as water. It would seem if FAS is really caused by the occasional glass of wine, then there are European countries that would have a huge problem, I would think. Maybe it's a place to test that premise.
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 241
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Several years ago I e-mailed an Adventist pastor in Europe, and posed the question of wine and his culture. Needless to say he never responded.
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 242
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding the fetal alcohol syndrom. I worked in a neonatal intinsive care unit for four years back in the 80s. At that time they did not know at what point FAS would take hold therefore they advised total abstinance. It was a "its not worth the risk of the child and my malpractice insurance". I know I had an occational glass of wine with my youngest, she is 13 and was identifed as a gifted child from one of the best school districts in our state.

You could say the same thing about peanut butter. Your kid may never have and allergic reastion and die, so why risk it.

I think so many people today are so protective of their children they do not function well. Parents fighting at kids ball games etc.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 950
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is an article about FAS and drinking: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/FetalAlcoholSyndrome.html

It looks like drinking in moderation does not cause FAS.

Jeremy
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 622
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I drank occassionally with 3 of my 5 children. The two I never touched a drop with seem to have more emotional problems than the other 3...not bad ones, but they are pretty uptight kids. The youngest is probably my most gifted child and I drank a couple of glasses of wine a week with him. If you notice, "strong drink" and wine are separate catagories in the bible. Perhaps they had grain alcohol, etc. back then. Just my 2 cents.
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 651
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cannot substantiate this, but from what I've heard the greatest problems come from hard alcohol and beer. Beer was, in ancient times, considered a man's drink, and most patriarchal societies dictated what a woman could or could not touch. We have to remember that the Biblical societies were heavily patriarchal. That means that what is mentioned in scripture, unless there is specific reference to a particular practice applying to women, is held exclusively for the men.

I'm not in favor of heavily patriarchal practices, I'm just stating an observation of my understanding of practices then. Even in NT times, though it was argued against by Paul, women were merely the property of men. If a man wished to share his beer or wine (by the way, table wine was a softer drink because it was a half/half combination of wine and water) then his wife could have those drinks. Otherwise she could only bring the drink to her husband.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 745
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, Thanks for sharing that article. I am not an Obstetrician, but I believe the FAS is a function of the malnutrition that usually accompanies excessive ETOH consumption. Still it is better to abstain for the period of pregnancy, but the hard scientific explanation for recommending total abstinence is lacking.

Belva, I have heard fundamentalist preachers rationalize that Paul's advice to Timothy was about wine that was diluted with water. Do you know where to find the evidence that this is true?
When Jesus made wine that the wine steward said was better than any other wine, I have a hard time believing that it was diluted with water. Because this would make the wine taste flat. Also the chemistry of winemaking hasn't changed that I know of. If anyone has doubts about how strong Biblical wine was, then check out the story in Genesis of Noah and what the wine did to him. Those who are Hebrew scholars say that Noah did more in that tent than just uncover himself. But I will spare the graphic details.
There are so many fundamentalist teachers out there trying to make excuses for what the Bible so plainly teaches, and that is that wine is a legitimate gift from God to gladden the hearts of men.

Stan
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 624
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here, Here, Stan!!!! I agree.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 954
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, yes scholars believe that the "strong drink" mentioned in the Bible was an alcoholic grain beverage (beer). Even the SDA Biblical Research Institute admits this!

And here is what Strong's concordance says about the Hebrew word for "strong drink":


quote:

an intoxicant, i.e. intensely alcoholic liquor




And here is what the Bible says about "strong drink":


quote:

"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee." (Deuteronomy 14:22-27 KJV.)




This is the Biblical tithing system. Why don't SDAs (and other churches) practice tithing according to the Bible's instructions?! They were supposed to consume meat and alcohol!!

The word for wine in verse 26 (different Hebrew word than in verse 23) means fermented wine! This is the Hebrew word for wine that is used most often in the OT. Strong's concordance says:


quote:

from an unused root mean. to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by impl. intoxication




Jeremy
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 454
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

Interestingly, Noah is not recorded as having fathered additional offspring after his drunken episode in the tent. Some Bible scholars speculate that Ham may have crushed his father's testicles in order to prevent any further dilution of the family inheritance. Genesis 9:24 tells us that Noah was fully aware of what Ham had done to him after awaking from his drunkenness [visual observation associated with intense pain would make the matter very clear].

Furthermore, such a horrible act on the part of Ham would explain Noah's immediate curse upon him.

Dennis J. Fischer
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1040
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess the only reason I think the wine alcohol content might be different is the technology and aging that goes into wine these days. Sure seems to be quite an ordeal for no difference (temperatures and timings and aging, etc.). But I'm not a wine drinker, so my ignoarance is hanging out again.

And hence, Noah's story has always left me wondering...how could he make wine that fast. I thought it had to "age" to get its fermentation. ??

I only know the Bible says not to be drunk!

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