| Author | Message | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 652 Registered: 7-2004 |
Like I said above, I cannot substantiate anything I said other than to look at social practices of a patriarcal society. An example would be Muslim societies of today. As for the diluted wine, I wouldn't have even mentioned that if I hadn't heard about that practice from a Presbyterian pulpit. I do not believe, however, that the wine at the Wedding in Cana was diluted. It was a party, remember, and people were more than willing to have the wine "gladden their hearts." It was appropriate under the circumstances. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 653 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have a question for you bunch of drunken sots -- how did a discussion that started with coffee end up about alcoholic beverages? (;o) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1041 Registered: 7-2003  |
quoting Ellen, of course.  | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 955 Registered: 10-2004  |
Haha, you had me actually laughing out loud, Belva! Jeremy | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 |
I just did a quick scan of this post so what I might add may have already be discussed. It is common for pregnant women who are having trouble with preterm labor to be prescribed a glass of wine a day to help with relaxation and preterm labor with no known ill effects. It is funny how Adventists associated causual drinking with DRUNKENESS. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 654 Registered: 7-2004 |
Brian, that is exactly what I was prescribed when I was having Braxton-Hicks labor (the useless sort) and it actually worked. I'd never done any drinking prior to that so I had to gag it down at first. The truth is that after about the sixth month there is no harm in extremely moderate drinking of wine, per my pediatrician. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 655 Registered: 7-2004 |
I mean obstetrician. It's been a long time since I had to deal with either type of doctor. Now I'm seeing an internist and a pain specialist. Aint getting older wonderful. Maybe it's time to go back to a glass of wine every evening! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 750 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, thanks for amplifying on Noah. I hadn't heard that explanation. Jeremy, thanks for the word studies on the different uses of wine and strong drink in the Bible. Yes, it does seem that this topic of wine comes up quite frequently. Usually it is because EGW lumps coffee, tea, beer, and wine together as being harmful. We can prove scientifically that her advice is not valid. But we can also prove that prohibition can in no way be supported Biblically. But this idea is still so prevalent in so many evangelical and fundamentalist circles today. Ironically, those who try to impose their prohibitions on others teach emphatically that the Bible is inerrant. If that is true according to them, then why don't they trust God's word in this area too? Is the Bible reliable in this area too? Or do these fundamentalists just have to impose their inherent biases and make up their own rules here. In many ways, some of these churches are very similar to the Adventism that most of us have come out of. Stan | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2005 |
Wine content in the US is different from some countries, as there are certain additives and preservatives that are required here, which Im sure were not required in biblical times. Who knows if some of the secondary effects of alcohol are tied to these additives and modern technology processes. (we know that sulfites contribute to hangovers for instance) Those who choose to drink wine and dont want the additives and preservatives, should just ask some Academy kids how to make "dorm" wine. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 957 Registered: 10-2004 |
Melissa, actually the passage doesn't say that Noah had wine right away. It says that he began farming and planted a vineyard and that he drank of the wine. This could have taken quite a bit of time. Jeremy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 656 Registered: 7-2004 |
What the Noah story does show is that wine has been with the human race for almost as long as there has been a human race. Noah obviously packed his cuttings on-board the ark so he could plant a vineyard once things settled down again. Am I just reading information into the story as it was told? | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 192 Registered: 6-2001  |
Interesting responses. I did drink a bit before I found out I was pregnant with my daughter, and one of my biggest worries during the pregnancy and after was that she had been affected by it. Especially because what I had heard was that the early drinking was what was harmful. (She's not as far as I can tell, but I have some latent fears such as when she is screaming and throwing things and stomping her little foot!) It would be interesting to know if there were alcoholics in Biblical times. There is so much the Bible leaves out! Curiously, Hannah | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 754 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah, I have read that alcoholism is among the lowest rates in praticing Jews. This is thought to be related to the fact that in Jewish culture, as in the O.T. Hebrew community, wine didn't have the taboos associated with it the way our American fundamentalist culture did. Without the taboos, people are likely to learn how to use wine responsibly, and it is not a sign of rebellion. This more responsible use is also seen in Europe. However, with all that said, the Bible clearly warns in Proverbs that "wine is a mocker, and strong drink is raging...don't be deceived etc.", and there are several other O.T texts which speak of drunkenness. The Bible always speaks of drunkenness as a sin, and has plenty of warnings, but it doesn't prohibit its responsible use, and in several instances speaks of it positively. We have to be responsible and balanced in our approach, and especially since we see so much addiction in our culture, and drunk driving--all do to misuse-then caution needs to be used in exercising our freedom. Romans 14, also talks about the issue of being a stumbling block to others with both meat eating and wine drinking used in an equal sense by Paul. So maybe he is saying, that when we are trying to witness to our SDA friends, be careful about indulging your freedom. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1047 Registered: 7-2003 |
I know Jeremy, but it sounds pretty quick when reading it. It seems he got off the boat and got drunk. I recognize that growing a vineyard takes time...and presumably making wine... so it seems sometimes Noah gets a bad rap for so quickly "falling" after the flood. It's just more of my trying to sort the truth from fiction my childhood brain recorded. It's quite fascinating what one retains and what one misses. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2005 |
Stan, you may be referring to the most interesting study mentioned in Michael Horton's "Putting Amazing Back into Grace" p. 41. In the study of the psychology of religion, Bernard Spilka, Ralph Hood, and Richard Gorsuch point out that numerous studies have concluded that "while Jews show the least abstinence from alcohol....; they possess extremely low rates for pathological drinking." On the other hand, "Methodists express negative attitudes toward drinking, yet a study of a college sample showed that 'more Methodist students drink to get intoxicated than any other group.'" The same irony shows up in Mormon samplings and other legalistic groups. On the other hand, "Judaism considers alcohol a gift of God that must not be abused," and "orthodox and conservative Jews become intoxicated less than their reformed or secular coreligionists." Conclusion? "Alcoholism seems to be troublesome among groups that generally take the most negative stance toward unlimited drinking." This is just one example of how legalism can undermind law, the author points out. To lighten up things, I'll share this. The first part is true the last......well, I'll let you decide for yourself. My primary physician suggested I have a glass of red wine each day to increase my triglicerides. I thought, "I can handle that!" I bought a 5 gallon goblet, fill it once a day and drink it as my "one glass of wine." The trouble is, the neighbors are complaining over the semi load of wine that has to be delivered once a month, and I've had to take out a second mortgage on my home to pay for all this wine! LOL Jess | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2001 |
Stan, Could not the stumbling block go both ways? If one requires abstinance by adding to what the Bible says they could turn off a well read Bible student, and what you had to witness to them would be for naught. Remember all Bible students may not be studying for the good. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah: I cracked up at the "stomping her little foot" comment. I didn't have a drink of any alochol until after I got saved (i.e. left the Adventist beliefs), which was well after my children were born, and there's been plenty of "little foot stompin'" around these parts too!" LOL Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah: p.s. screaming and throwing things too! Yup...you're not alone! Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 765 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, Yes it was Horton's quote from that great book you mention that I got that idea. Now I remember you quoted that reference once before a long time ago on a different thread. Violet, I don't have a good answer to your question about the stumbling block. I do know that when I was witnessing to my family about the freedom from Adventism in the gospel, it would not have helped if I suddenly flaunted my freedom to drink wine. Because their estimation was that it was a definite sin, and they may have not been able to get past that fact. My Dad did come to the conclusion that he had been wrong in condemning wine, but it took many years to get out of that SDA mindset. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 455 Registered: 4-2000  |
ETHICAL DILEMMAS IN CONTEMPORARY ADVENTISM (1) Proxy salvation is the teaching of Ellen White that parents can actually transfer the gift of salvation to offspring that died prior to the age of faith or accountability. Adventists generally interpret this to mean that even one devout SDA parent can effectively obtain the salvation of a deceased child. This Ellenism to akin to the Mormon belief in prayer for the dead. However, in this case, the Adventists don't even have one Bible passage to support this esoteric view. With the Biblical view of predestination, age is not a factor. It is truly amazing how Ellen White never missed an opportunity to bring guilt to one in the most difficult circumstance. This cultic teaching would strongly encourage parents to remain faithful to Adventism. Ellen White didn't leave any stones unturned to insure enslavement to her church. (2) The Old Covenant teaching against touching and eating swine is causing a new problem for many Adventists. With new medical advances in wound care, a very thin film of pig skin is applied to burn and wound patients to assist healing. The pig skin is then absorbed by the body--literally becoming a part of you. In a recent conversation with a highly-respected, SDA ethicist, he indicated that if a head elder of a local SDA church had a pig farm, it would be fine with him. Furthermore, his view was that the touching prohibition with pigs was only if the carcass was intended for human consumption. SDA church leaders must also decide if eating un-kosher Jello is grounds for disfellowshipping a member. After all, eating un-kosher Jello is a public reproach to SDA dogma--like breaking the Sabbath. By the way, I still don't believe the guy when he told me that the head elder of the College View SDA Church could have the liberty to own and operate a pig farm to help supply the SDA demand for shoe leather, etc. SDAs will often say the most unusual things when under the heat of argument (smile). (3) Same-sex marriage is a new topic in liberal SDA circles. For example, the Association of Adventist Forums (AAF) will feature a SDA ethicist in a forthcoming meeting. The speaker, a former professor at LaSierra, will highlight the SDA view of separation between Church and State to get the door open to same-sex marriage in Adventist circles. Their argument is that the State has no right to be in the marriage business, etc. (4) Abortion is still an honorable option in official Adventism. To their credit, most SDAs in the pew are pro-life. Does this reveal a growing mistrust in the boys upstairs? (5) Sabbath observance on a round world is causing problems in northern Scandinavian countries. Some portions of the year require faithful sabbatarians to actually keep two days when sunset comes at noon on Friday. Could this be a factor in why these Conferences are not growing in membership? People are unwilling to take two days a week off from work and from school. Your comments are solicited. Dennis J. Fischer |
