| Author | Message | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2005 |
I understand anger and frustration - I understand that leaving is difficult -I have all those same feelings - but face it - bashing is bashing - it does not build up the speaker nor the person being bashed. It is the "US" vs "THEM" that occurs in Adventism all to often - it is the reverse of the "remnant" theology and does not make it easier for someone looking on the see "Christ" in the non-Adventist message since it does not look Christlike in its demeanor. 'nuff said, Moving on. Bill | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 |
Interesting to read all (well some of...) the responses of my "coffee"-thread. It is really a question of letting common sense be the main thing. God leads people today (doctors, scientists and inspired churchleaders) to a present knowledge that is good for us. To stop by the knowledge of the time of EGW is to make the world very small. Arriving at church yesterday i met god old SDA brother coming with a cup of coffee in his hand bought at a nearby cafÈ. I beleive the Spirit talked to him - and to me - in full power despite the cup of coffee :-) In the sermon the pastor talked about what Jesus is doing now - based on the 1844 context. He was now and then interrupted by a old lady saying "Christ did it all on the cross", "the grace is good enough for me", "I never heard about another book than the book of life" (responding the quote that Jesus writes down our sins in a book in the sanctuary). I beleive she was in the full use of the Spirit telling us as a church what the gospel is all about. I was praying about this to happen. Praise Jesus! So church yesterday was a experience that the Spirit leads the church toward an evengelical thread. A litte comment about sabbath and scandinavian countries. In practice it comes to a very stange situation when sabbath starts at 12 friday and ends at 12 saturday. I have met SDA¥s who finds this good because they have the saturday afernoon "free" to do their personal things. To take a walk and do shopping after church is also possible in wintertime. So sabbath becomes a matter to get around rather to think what is the challenge to be a christian. A former SDA pastor tried to start a discussion to set up sabbath from 6 pm to 6 pm instead of sunset, to be a more practical use. He was totally ingored by the leadership of the church, but instead lead by the Spirit to see many other problems and abnormalities within SDA. He left church a few years ago. Thank¥s again for interesting input. Go for Jesus. Bless u all. /D | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 305 Registered: 7-2004  |
I see a difference between expressing our personal hurt and anger about our experiences with the SDA church when compared to what appear to be rejoicing in the apparent problems that have surfaced. It can be healthy and healing to express our personal pain and anger. That is part of the nature of seeking support from people who share common experiences. In many cases there are not that many people outside of our friends on this board that can understand the source of the anger. We all need a safe and understanding place. At the same time, I don't believe we should rejoice in the suffering of another, even a church that may still be causing us pain. I don't know that any posts are intended that way, but some have seemed that way to me. I also think that any allegations that are made should be credible and understood in the context of the larger situtation (for instance some of the situtations pointed out about Adventist hospitals). | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2005 |
Re: I also think that any allegations that are made should be credible and understood in the context of the larger situtation (for instance some of the situtations pointed out about Adventist hospitals). What do you mean here Ric? Not sure I understand. Bill | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 306 Registered: 7-2004 |
When the business practices of SDA hospitals are brought under question because of news articles, lawsuits, and federal investigations I think we need to consider that a) news articles and lawsuits may not be giving a full and accurate picture (credibility) b) the groups provding the press releases and lawsuits often have similar actions underway with other groups that operate large hospital systems (crediblity and context), and c) a number of hospital systems have come under federal investigation (which doesn't make the behavior ethical, but does provide the context of the business that the hospitals are in). | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen, your testimony on the website and especially what you have said about adventist identity impressed me very much. Can you say something more about the identity in Christ in opposition with identity as adevntist? Because this is now the subject under discussion, they vs. us. Let me explain. I'm contemplating leaving the SDA church. I share my desire with some friends, and they insisted to not resign my membership. For this reason: my influence for good in the church will be terminated. They don't know that I'm convinced that Sabbath is a shadow of Christ, obsolete, but they know that I believe no longer in Ellen White and Investigative Judgment. They want to stay to be a thorn in the flesh for the system, because they are attracted by the truth, and are disgusted about the lies that the system promovates. I see some reasons to stay, especially thinking that because I was raised like an adventist God prepared me to be a witness for them. Someone says that the thing to do is to stay until the church throws you out. I'm not so sure. But, the basic reason for what I stay is that I don't understand what means the identity in Jesus, Colleen. From my perspective, as long as I can share the gospel with my friends, and make a positiv econtribution in the church, I can retain my identity in Christ. Is something like being in the world but not in the world. Colleen, is it possible to be present in the body in the adventist church and not be an adventist, still retaining the identity which Christ gives? Because I was raised an adventist I will forever be tied to adventism by my past, and like I sayd, I'm thinking about my responsability for adventists for which a letter of resignation is the equivalent of apostacy, of renouncing the christianity. Another point: Collen, you said that Christ wanted that you will have a new identity in Him, which implies leaving the adventist identity. Seems that adventist identity included the membership, even if you no longer believe crucial doctrines. If I don't renounce my membership now, this means that I refused my new identity in Jesus? Even if I communicate my beliefs openly? The logic of my friend, is that as long as you refuse to resign your membership this means that you sustain that you are a believer, even with a new identity, but still a believer in Christ. The moment you resign you renounce adventism 100%, not just the IJ or Ellen White, but belief in Trinyty, Christ, Salvation and everything. It's like you delcare yourself an apostate, an atheist. For another part, because my wife is still convinced that SDA church is the remnant church, that Ellen White is a true prophet even that she said things which was not showed her, pretending otherwise, I want to wait for her to develop her udnerstanding and this takes time, many time perhaps. I don't want to send the message: if you want to be a christian you can't be a sda, you must leave sda. This means putting a pressure creating something like they vs. us. My hope for adventists, not for adventism is that they acknowledge the fact that you could know Christ when you are an adventist, you can enjoy the new covenant blessings still being an adventist, not neccesarily leaving a world with which you are familiar, being in the world, but not in the world. Another thing: fellowship with other christians is necessary, not an option. The identity in Christ included this. But is not possible to have fellowship with other christians which you meet in the sda, or, because my witness they become born again? A health desire is to help liberate your friends from the slavery of sda. But, is it fair to renounce the right to say a word in Sabbath School which can be a blessing for the other. I think that, if I resing, I will not be allowed to say nothing, because I'm no longer a member. Who's this guy to teach us? Sure, the possible to be kicked out is very real, but until then is not a good thing to remain adventist? For clarification: I agree that Satan has a claim on adventism. But, because they preached Jesus, he has also a claim. The central core of adventism is evil. I don't believe that the church can be reformed, but at the grass level is it possible to produce a change? I'm very interesting in anything that would help me clarify this issues. Jackob | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2005 |
Five years ago, I recieved the assurance from God that I was saved, completely resting upon the Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I didnt understand all the whys or facts, I was just given this assurance from God. I have rested in this freedom while worshipping in the adventist church. I am quite vocal about it, when the subject comes up, such good news is impossible to keep quiet! I began considering finding another place to worship after a frustrating year in a womens sabbath school class. Every, and I mean EVERY week the discussion seemed to return to the hurts and traumas inflicted by the adventist church, especially those hammered with EGW. People spoke of learning of grace, and salvation by faith, but seemed stuck in the pain from the past. I was so excited about my relationship with Jesus, that I wanted to move forward into MEAT! I wanted to be nurtured and supported in GROWTH! I wanted to put the past behind and strain forward for the PRIZE... The sabbath issue kept me there, as well as a ministry I was called to. God closed the door on the ministry, and that left the Sabbath. I came to this site to investigate the Sabbath issue. I am still doing that....This morning I read Brian Tripps story, and followed his link to "New Covenant Christians" manuscript! It was so clear to me. I think I am beginning to understand the how's and why's of what I have experienced for years. Thank you Brian. Maybe that background will help explain my frustration, (not critcism) with posts about past hurts within the SDA church system. Its what I dealt with from within the church! I need to remember to be patient with those who still need to vent. I do at times as well, but mostly I just want to enjoy relationship with God, and learn the doctrine behind the gift of grace I recieved. I have been a Christian since my teens, resistant at times to God, but nonetheless, I accepted Him at that time and it was genuine. I bristle when I hear comments that SDA's are not TRUE Chritians. The implication is that I am not a Christian, since I am a memeber of the SDA church. Praise God, I am. I know of many other SDA's who are, without a doubt,Christians. I think doctrinal understanding comes to different people at different times, and still we dont all agree! Its hard for me to imagine that on a Corporate Level I have been mislead or decieved, yet I am investigating... This morning, at church (Yes Sunday!), the pastor spoke of the spiritual mentors in his history. I realized that God has ALWAYS put people in my path, within the SDA system, who were Christians through and through. I have experinced Grace in all forms from various SDA's, even during times of deep rebellion. I have seen and hungered for the level of peace I have seen in some, and that I now experience for myself. When I feel defensive, I am thinking of those individuals. Melissa, you have been, and continue to be in my prayers. I do consider you an "equal" Christian. I did not mean to imply that people here do not pray, only that it wasnt obvious to those who might check out the site briefy. I have heard it stated here that Jesus isnt mentioned, or that prayer was missing from the adventist chruch, and that has not been my experience. I have spent time in both prayer meetings and parent prayer groups in heart-felt prayer! I'm sorry for your ongoing experience. Im afraid I have been like your X in the past on some occasions, so conviced that I had the full truth! Dinolf, What an experience. I am joining you and the others on this forum to pray for our brothers and sisters within the adventist system, and for the system itself. In Christ, Java | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 247 Registered: 2-2001 |
Melissa, I was very fortunate to be raised in the family I was. My mother took me to church and I spent 10 years in SDA schools. My father loved Jesus He saw to it that we prayed in our home. Meals were not a problem we just did not eat port etc. My mom was such a good cook no-one ever lacked for good food. The bad part was I spent most of my younger years puting his name on the prayer list at school because I knew he was not going to heaven as he did not keep the Sabbath. He died when I was 16 and not until I reached 32 and came out of adventism did I know I would see him in heaven. He loved my mother very much and I think the Holy Spirit gave him the wisdom to know that there are battles you do not fight to keep a happy home. My mother had cancer at 70 and spent 4 months dying. She told me she spent that summer studying her Bible. After her death I saw notes in her Bible that she knew judgement would pass from those under grace. I knew she was right with God too. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2005 |
Ric: Re: Hospitals: I agree with what you say - I know for a fact that AHS has a dramatic discount for all private pays. I also have a relative in the hierarcy at a rather large institution and I know that they make WAY below standard wage. Also - the problem with non-profit hospitals that is currently happening is happening with all not for profits - not just AHS. Bill | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 769 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, My suggestion would be to follow the Holy Spirit's leading. It is clear from reading your posts so far, that you have a clear understnding of the problems within Adventism. I would have to say that if you have a clear leading to stay in an SDA congregation, then it is possible tha God wants you there to stand up for the true gospel of grace. As long as they don't throw you out for openly expressing your views, then you might be able to be a good influence. God is totally sovereign in salvation, and is able to save to the uttermost many people who are still in congregations where there is an extra-biblical authority, including Catholics, SDAs, and many other false systems. I believe He is totally sovereign in bringing His sheep out of these organizations in His perfect timing. There are many true SDA Christians, but I believe that as the Holy Spirit leads into all Truth, then they will eventually see that Adventism is based on Ellen White's authority, and not on true Biblical authority, which by definition makes it another gospel, because of another authority. It is possible as Javagirl said above, the word "cult" creates an image of something really far out there such as Charles Manson or other weird and crazy groups, so that word usage may be counterproductive. The Biblical terminology according to Gal. 1 is a "different gospel", which is really no gospel at all. Stan | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2005 |
Riverfonz... Since Catholics and SDA's we know do NOT have the truth. Can you tell me specifically which denomination DOES have the truth? In your opinion? Bill | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 770 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Bill, Riverfonz is my dog's name, and you are free to call me Stan. It is time now to accentuate the positive. The definition of a true church or congregation as my two cents worth is any group who acknowledges that the Bible is inerrant, and is the final authority in faith and practice. A true body of believers will not give any credence to EGW, papal authority, Joseph Smith, tongues or visions as authority over scripture, or a fundamentalist preacher adding to the Word of God his pronouncements on behavior that is not addressed by the Bible. True church= Bible alone and Christ alone False church= Christ PLUS something else, or the Bible plus some other authority to better explain the Bible to you. One sure mark of a false gospel is some group coming along and saying "look, the Bible is too complicated to interpret, just read our books and you will be able to understand the Bible. Morris Venden did exactly this a few years ago when he proclaimed that EGW was an inspired interpreter of scripture. That is heresy! God has never and never will set up an inspired infallible interpreter of scripture whether it be EGW or the pope. Stan | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2005 |
So Stan - it sounds like you do not believe that ANY church has a "lock" on truth - that it would be possible to find it or specifically not find it and rule it out in ANY church? I know MANY churches that SAY it is the Bible and the Bible only but to listen to the preachers... <grin>. Bill | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2521 Registered: 12-2003  |
Stan, great explanation of the true gospel. And, Catalyst, it's not about denominations. Most Christian denominations have the true goeple in their belief statements. Whether or not an individual congregation functionally teaches and practices it varies from church to church. Jackob, you ask very good questions. God very specifically kept us in the Adventist church for several years before equally clearly leading us out. During the time we were learning about the church, we were inside, and we were actively presenting the gospel while we were there. Eventually, though, we had to leave in order not to be dishonest. When we were thoroughly convinced that EGW was a false prophet and that what we had been taught was not Biblical, we finally knew we had to leave. To stay would have meant giving tacit approval to what we had come to believe was blatant heresy. What I came to realize was that my indentification with Adventism had defined me. I was many things: woman, American, wife, mom, writer/editor, teacher...but more than any other thing, Adventism determined my identity. That identity was not so much a matter of beliefs; it was a matter of community and culture. I could easily have stayed inside the church, disbelieved its doctrines, and had an inside platform to speak the gospel. The problem, though, was that I was so identified with the church that the real reason I didn't want to leave was because it meant giving up all the relationships and jobs and contacts and community I had. Jesus finally made it clear that my love for my community and culture was competing with my loyalty to Him. I had to be willing to surrender my most identifying markómy Adventismófor the sake of identifying myself with Jesus alone. Jackob, I do not believe you should take this step until God makes it clear that you should. If, however, you stop saying "yes" to Jesus as some point because what He's asking of you is too threatening, at that moment you compromise your own influence. If you're not living in integrity--if you're rationalizing, you cannot give a clear witness for the gospel. After a time I finally realized that if I stayed and spoke up about Jesus being the fulfillment of the Sabbath, about the reality of being born again, etc., I would be giving an unconvincing message because officially I still validated the fourth commandment by identifying with people who believed it still applied to them--and so forth. Once Jesus clearly led us to leave, the great surprise was that He arranged things so that we have had much more influence INSIDE the church than we ever had or would have had if we had remained Adventist. While it seems that we lose our chances to witness to Adventists if we leave, the opposite is actually true. While some individuals shut us off, our chances to speak and be heard have increased. When all I need to please is Jesus--not friends, a congregation, etc.--life is so much more free. And by the way, your friends' saying that leaving Adventism would mean you were leaving Jesus and the Bible, etc., is just not true. It's also not a believable argument. If they truly believe that, they will be amazed, when God finally calls you out, to discover how much you love Him. The farther away from the church you get once God leads you out, the more cultic and deceptive you realize it is. Javagirl, I understand your feelings about corporate deception, etc. God will show you what you need to know in His time and way. I remember about 3 or 4 years before we finally began to study our way out hearing our pastor at the Glendale City Church say in his SS class that when he was at the seminary, the profs told him and his classmates that the essential Adventist doctrines were not true, but they must not tell their parishioners because they would lose their faith. (He was in seminary before Desmond Ford's announcement triggered the masssive housecleaning from Andrews and Souithern, etc.) While many individual Adventists are Christians, they are limited in their experience of the freedom of the gospel. I know this statement will sound jarring to many, but it's like Bob George from People to People Ministries says: people who observe the law are either not born again Christians, or they have the Holy Spirit in them but are not living by the Spirit. You cannot be both loyal to Jesus and also honor the law. If you try, you are disloyal to both. It's spiritual adultery. That being said, you can trust God to guide you in His time. I heard someone on the radio say it this way: Jesus will not change a committed Baptist or a committed Mormon or a committed Jeshovah's Witness. He will only change a committed seeker of Truth. Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen: Re: QUOTE Catalyst, it's not about denominations. Most Christian denominations have the true goeple in their belief statements. Whether or not an individual congregation functionally teaches and practices it varies from church to church. UNQUOTE I agree - the difficulty that I have is that I see MANY people in the Adventist church in the same boat that I am in - 1. they believe that Adventist statement of "the Bible and the Bible only" 2. they do not believe in EGW It looks like there are more and more people feeling this way - I believe that this will eventually cause a "crisis" in the church and a split. Interesting happenings... Bill | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 370 Registered: 7-2000 |
Which Bible, Bill? The one that is verbally inspired and inerrant in the original languages? Or the one that came by 'thought inspiration' and has errors---which is what the SDA's teach. When you ask 'which denomination or group has the truth'--you've really shown the SDA identity way of thinking. The issue is NOT the sign over the door. The big dividing line in Christianty is over the inspiration of the Bible. Among the groups that believe in verbal inspiration/inerrancy, you can always find a truth seeking, Christ centered congregation. Sometimes the sign over the church door will say 'Baptist', 'Non-Denominational', 'Christian', 'Church of Christ', etc. There is this huge group of Christianity often labeled 'Evangelical-Fundamentalist' that are in agreement on basic beliefs. In the Friday night Bible studies that Colleen has, we had members from Trinity (E.V. Free), Crossroads (Baptist roots/nondenominational) Calvary Chapel---(wasn't someone from a Vineyard church as well?)--but when we studied the Bibe we were in agreement about 99% of the time. I'd suggest that you look up, online, local churches that have verbal inspiration/inerrance as the foundation of their beliefs and then go visiting. You might like what you find and many of us transitioned out of Adventism by going to one church on Sat. and a second on Sunday----until we couldn't take what was taught on Saturday and had to leave!  | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 540 Registered: 7-2004 |
This last Sunday our church had an announcement in the bulletin of a Bible study/prayer time that the Baptist church in town is holding. My husband was shocked. "How could they be advertising for the competition?" I had to point out that he was thinking like a SDA ! I know for a fact that my SDA family and friends openly blame my journey out of Adventism on my Bible study (BSF). Being in a large Non-denominational Bible study has shown me that a wide, wide variety of Christians can come together to study the Bible and get along beautifully. Nobody is threatened about the different views of those in the class...I don't even agree with all the views that the study teaches (some of it can be a bit legalistic). It's about being in God's infallible, inerrent Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me His Truths. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 772 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill, I agree with Loneviking about verbal inspiration. The SDA belief statement may say that the Bible is their authority for truth, well that is outright contradicted by the belief statement that says EGW is a continuing and authoritative source for truth. So, in practice EGW has veto power over the Bible, and since much of what she wrote contradicts the Bible, then you have another authoritative source for truth, and therefore another gospel. Also the SDA church has no clear statement of the doctrine of justificaation by grace through faith alone. Their gospel is identical to the Catholic gospel which combines faith plus works in being justified. Here is a link to a Christianity Today article which Chris posted on another thread, which defines what an evangelical church is and is not. Please compare SDAs belief statement with this statement and see if Adventism fits the criteria for an evangelical church. www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/106/53.0.html Since I believe the great truths of the Reformation as taught by Paul and rediscovered by Luther and Calvin, and since my wife and I are in transition now looking for a church in our area, I am looking for a church which emphasizes the five solas of the Reformation contained in this confession of faith signed by the Alliance for Confessing Evangelicals www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/cambridgedeclaration.html Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2522 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, your story of your husband and the Baptist church announcement is such a great illustration of the principle we're discussing here! Loneviking, great explanation of the issue--very clear. The website with the Five Solas, Stan, is very interesting. You're both right; the issue is not denominations or differing views on peripheral doctrines. The issue is the innerancy of Scripture and the complete adequacy of Christ alone. As Loneviking said, Adventists SAY they believe in the Bible alone, but the way they approach the Bible leaves it wide open to be individually interpreted with no absolute ground of truth. You are right Bill, however, re: the growing discomfort of many within Adventism over EGW. I believe that if Adventists can get to the place that they can surrender their fear and loyalty enough to see the truth of her falseness and admit she's a false prophet, their view of Scripture will begin to change. This phenomenon certainly happened to me, and, I suspect, to many of us here. Truly admitting EGWs complete falseness is often the key that unlocks people's ability to approach Scripture with a heart open to truth. When one is open to Scripture, then one can actually meet the Real Jesusóafter that, all reality is different. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 638 Registered: 1-2003 |
The people (2 of them) from New Orleans, that are staying with my brother...went to 3 different church services this weekend. On Sat., the local SDA (co-incientally where they now film Faith for Today), on Sunday a Baptist church that helped them and then my church (non-denom but associated with Southern Baptist). At the end of my church service, the man who went (the only one saved in the group of 4) proclaimed to all around that he had been to 3 churches this weekend and this was the one he would join...the love they demonstrated to him was unbelievable. Several of the pastors came up and laid hands on him and prayed over him...it was incredible. I can't tell you what it means to me to love a church body. I was fond of many SDA's when I attended there but there was always an "arm's length" between us. There wasn't that full out acceptance, love and feeling of the presence of the Holy Spirit that I feel there. The Holy Spirit is thick there...my sister-in-law came and she kept telling me she got goosebumps, I was feeling the same way!!!...has anyone experience that? There are certain things the preacher says and certain songs that cause the goosebumps...I take that to be the HolySpirit quickening in my soul. Has anyone else experience this? |
