| Author | Message | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2004 |
I was talking with a friend of mine who does alot of evangelism and he mentioned that the average for retaining newly baptized members in the SDA church is @ 25%,but that Amazing Facts has a %40 rate. He told me this was because they baptized individuals that might not be ready to take all the steps (smoking, meat, etc) right away. He said that since AF worked with individuals where they were at, that this led to a higher retention rate. That comment suprised me because I had assumed that AF would be much stricter on who and when they baptized. He said that he had spent alot of time talking about this with someone at AF, so I am taking him at his word. Just wondering if you all had any ideas why AF would have a higher retention rate than the norm. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 623 Registered: 1-2003 |
What on earth is Amazing Facts (a magazine) doing baptizing people? What are they baptizing them into? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 743 Registered: 3-2005 |
I understand why. Doug Batchelor is a cultic leader. He has a magical effect on his followers. If you ever watch those prophecy seminars that he stages, he has his followers practically worshipping him. So he spreads his belief system very effectively, and draws more zealous supporters, who become indoctrinated into the cult mentality, and they therefore stay with the church. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2503 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amazing Facts is an "independent" evangelistic ministry. Doug Batchelor is the current poster child for AF, and he not only does SDA evangelistic crusades around the country, but his series are broadcast on 3ABN and the Hope channel (official SDA satellite channel). I had not heard that retention statistic, but I would guess that if they're doing individual follow up, that alone could increase retention. OTH, if they are baptizing people before the church would consider them ready, they might be able to be "Adventist" without really being "Adventist"--that would really cause them to stayówithout the accompanying guilt we "lifers" experienced when we did things we were taught were "wrong". People who are baptized when they're "ready" have to give up a whole lot they love: bacon, jewelry, Saturday, smoking, wine--and take on a whole lot that's unfamiliar: Worthington food, cooking without meat, a prophet, not reading secular books on Sabbath, etc. I can see that those would tend to leave if their giving up is not accompanied by being born again. Those who are baptized without all the new trappings would not be burdened by all those things because to them they would seem optional. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 956 Registered: 10-2004  |
When I first read that statistic, I was thinking it would seem to be the opposite--that those who joined without knowing all of the "peculiar" things with SDAism would leave after they find out, whereas those who are totally indoctrinated and committed and into all of it would stay. And I thought AF does thoroughly indoctrinate people! Hmmm. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 06, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 748 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, Batchelor does indoctrinate. It looks like I am puzzled Jeremy as you are, and it looks like I misread the original post. At hisprophecy seminars you don't see people with earrings or even wedding bands. He also hits them with Sabbathismal regeneration. Is there such a theological term? Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 749 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes Jeremy, I am confused as well. If you go by Doug's prophecy seminars the indoctrination has started big time. If you look in the audience, you don't see wedding rings or earrings. And Batchelor teaches "Sabbathismal regeneration"! Is there such a theological term? Stan | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yeah it confuses me to............maybe it is the type of people that they are pulling in. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2005 |
"Sabbathismal regeneration"? What is this, I'm dead curios. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 753 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, I was half kidding but not really. Doug Batchelor, in one prophecy seminar gave a sermon based on the Titanic. He came around to the fact that all the Sunday churches were basically on he Titanic, but to be saved, then you must be with the group that keeps the Sabbath, so, it is like baptisimal regeneration, where on the "Restoration" thread we discuss the fact that some Church of Christ congregations require baptism by them to be saved. Adding something else to Christ alone is no gospel at all and according to Gal. 1:8,9 is condemned. Stan | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2002 |
Most of the attendees at Doug's meetings are SDAs so you wouldn't see much jewelry. Doug has a very agressive pre-seminar lead-up with Bible workers who cover the area and hold individual studies for several months. His post-seminar follow-up is also very comprehensive. As Stan said, he is very persuasive. He could have been a grand success in sales, law, or politics. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 539 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wasn't his father a very successful buisness man who was worth a great deal of money? Doesn't he come by his persuasions and successes naturally? | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes and probably. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 959 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Sabbathismal (or "Sabbathtismal"?) Regeneration" could also refer to the teaching that you have to keep the Sabbath and be baptized into the SDA Church in order to be saved... ;-) Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 758 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy you got it! That is what one of your favorite teachers Doug Batchelor in the final analysis teaches.(Just kidding about your favorite teacher!) Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 257 Registered: 1-2003  |
Jeremy I have a quick question which I don't have the answer to. Has anyone ever heard Doug Batchelor say that you must keep the Sabbath and be baptised into the SDA church to be saved? Has he ever said that those baptised into another church will be lost. I'm just wondering since that is what I hear being said about him. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2512 Registered: 12-2003 |
I've heard Doug Batchelor preaching the Sabbath--employing guilt, fast-paced texts used out of context, comments close to sarcasm about the Catholic church changing the day, etc. I don't remember if he actually used the words that they had to keep the day to be saved, but that was the clear message. He would appeal to the people about whether they wanted to obey the Bible or man, etc. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 761 Registered: 3-2005 |
In a prophecy seminar by Batchelor from New York City, 1999, I did hear him say, or imply strongly that those who were keeping Sunday were on the Titanic and sinking. I don't know what could be clearer than that. But if you were to call his Sunday night radio talk show, and try to corner him on whether you had to keep the Sabbath to be saved, he would probably try to technically get around it in some way. But he uses double talk. I did not sense the spirit of truth at that seminar. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1049 Registered: 7-2003  |
Funny you should mention 99 New York, Stan. I copied an article from the Adventist Review, 9/23/99, about that seminar in NYC. I'll quote a couple of things said that struck me, and I was very new to reading anything SDA at that time ... This was an interview article, so question is posed by interviewer, and DB responds.... "Describe for me the kind of people whose attention will be attracted by this series. While we were in Times Square and were doing some pre-work, Gary Gibbs and I walked by the Times Square church where David Wilkerson [a well-known Pentecostal evangelist] spoke; and 3,000 people came pouring out. They had finished the service. And I thought to myself, Praise the Lord! There are people here who believe in Jesus, who read their Bibles. So, I want to reach those people! If they call me a sheep stealer, it's OK. The historic Adventist mission is to call people out of Babylon. So we want not only to get people who are secular New Yorkers, but to give the complete message to folks who may have some Christian leanings but don't know the full truth." "We hear some Adventists telling us that the church needs to "lose the beasts," and emphasize a more relational Christianity, emphasize our commonality with other Christians. How do you respond? You can quote me on this. I was drawn to the truth by the forthright, brave, bold presentation that our church embraces. And I don't intend to compromise the truth. I want to be as graceful and considerate and compassionate in presenting the truth as I know how to be. But I'm not going to say, "Well, we've outgrown the idea that we are a peculiar people." I still believe we are a people of prophecy. I still believe the salvational truths that we find in our old books. And I'll be preaching 'em. ... I really yearn to see Adventists not ashamed of what we believe. I think the Lord wants us to stand up and be counted for what we believe. We have a message -- well, it's not a message--I think we have the truth! And the world is looking for it. ...." From pages 10-12. What struck me most is that people coming out of a church were not "Christians", but people who believed in Jesus and read their Bibles, had "Christian leanings". Then again, that they had a salvational message different from other churches found in THEIR old books, the truth, not something in common with other Christian denominations. That really set my red flags waving ,,,, Ironic you should mention it, Stan. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 633 Registered: 1-2003 |
Doug is a true representative of the SDAism I know and grew up in. Belief in Jesus is not enough...you must be SDA. However, when confronted with that...they do a tap dance around it. |
