| Author | Message | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill: I just wanted to make sure that you saw my post of the Bible text I was quoting. It kind of got "lost". 2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version) 16"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," Patria | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2002 |
Isn't understanding of the Bible is entirely subject to personal interpretation, and personal interpretation entirely subject to personal philosophy? | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2005 |
You are including all of the parts of the Bible that are documented to be in the Code of Hammurabi first? What made Daniel's SECOND trip to the lions den NOT Bible worthy? What about the tale of Esther being a story from the heathens that was brought into the Bible? You don't feel that ANY of the stories a allegorical? Jonah? Job? Note - I am not trying to "tear down the Bible". Just remember that MEN met to put the Bible together - some wanted more in it - others wanted less. I saw your text - we interpret it differently. Thank you for your input... Bill | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 235 Registered: 8-2004 |
Allegorical doesn't mean it isn't still from God. Nobody said He is more limited than we are (except that He doesn't sin) in ways He can chose to express Himself! Mary | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 236 Registered: 8-2004 |
Ever heard of the true myth? Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 777 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill, The more I read of your posts, the more I am puzzled about what you actually believe. Just so I can get a frame of reference of where you are coming from, do you mind if I ask some basic questions? How do you view the Bible? Patria quoted 2 Tim. 3:16 above, and you said you don't believe that scripture is God-breathed. Do you believe in the virgin birth? If so, then on what basis do you believe it? Do you believe unequivocally in the doctrine of the Trinity, and the deity of Christ? Do you believe He rose bodily from the dead? And do you believe we are saved entirely by grace? If you believe these basic doctrines of the faith, then fine, but then I would have to ask on what basis you believe these doctrines? Is the Bible reliable on these points, and not others? I appreciate you coming on here and honestly expressing yourself Bill. Stan | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2005 |
Richard, Ric_b and Colleen, Thank you for the acknowledgements and I praise God that someone (some three)  were blessed!! It IS enough for me to simply believe and follow. I no longer have the arrogancy to question the Word of God's validity. Yes, I said arrogancy, because to question whether or not He sent it is to question His Soverngty (sp). I no longer do that or indulge. The Bible says to avoid foolish questions and so i cannot get into a discussion that questions whether God told the truth when He spoke to the some 44 writers over the span of 1600 years to complete the masterpiece called the Holy Bible. Oh, but this journey out of Adventism has not been a smooth one...but God is faithful and He is showing me bit by bit, day by day why He has kept me so close to the black adventist mecca. I never intend offense, but my Jesus said that when I stood for Him, I would be an offense, so, oh well. I praise Him for He is SO worthy of all that I am, have or will ever be! I am greatful to be free today. His Word IS a lamp fo rmy feet and light for my path...How GREAT THOU ART, MATCHLESS KING!!! For everyone that has the calling to struggle and reason with those that question God's Word, bless you. May He stregthen you and reward you with seeing nations come into the kingdom thru your prayers, toil and discussions. He is AWESOME!! | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2005 |
Helovesme2- Re: allegorical does not mean it is from God. I could not agree more - it just means that it MAY BE that Jonah or Job were not actual people. That was EXACTLY my point - Stan - 1. virgin birth - sure 2. Trinity - sure 3. deity of Christ - sure 4. raised form the dead - sure 5. saved by grace - yes I believe them because my PHILOSOPHY has determined that: 1. there is a God 2. He is loving and wonderful All other religions are not logical to me, make no sense or require a greater leap of faith for me than Christianity. What I am saying is that I do not need to know or believe that every period, every word in the Bible was specifically dictated by God. If something comes up that prooves that part if it was invented it does not or will not be fatal to my beliefs. For example: six days of creation - do I need them to be six literal days? No - they can be or not - the only difficulty I have with them NOT being six literal days is that if there was not then there was no Adam - no Adam - no original sin - no original sin - no need to die on the cross - well - problematic at best down that road <grin>. But essentially - I do not believe that I have to do what I see happening in the Adventist church - Ellen White says this - so no matter what science says - we have to defend out belief and find a way to make it so. I do not have to defend the Bible - I do not have to take someones belief in Hades and if something contradistcs it get defensive - that is a non-critical non-salivific thing for me. There are people that proove lots of things from the Bible - that is how they interpret it. That does not make it fatal to me. Make this a little less troublesome for yourself and me - look at Islam - many good and honest people - they read the same book - some go toxic and take it literally - to the nth degree - what is the result - they lose the picture of what the religion is about - they lose focus. The more liberal (use what ever word you want there) look at the religion and beliefs and try to work for Allah and live a good life - they do not understand the toxic readings that the extremists see. What I am saying is that I do not think that everyone must be a theologian to be saved - look at the thief on the cross if you disbelieve this. <grin>. Consequently - you want to study the doctrine of Hades. And you do - your beliefs now are different than/from mine. You might be right - I have not studied that in depth. I dislike/does not fit with my theology/philosophy. I believe that it is non-salvific. Consequently - "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" is also an interesting topic but equally uninteresting to me and un-necessary. Another example: is it necessary that I understand the cholinergic and adrenergic systems to have medication work in my body? NO - categorically. It is enough that SOMEONE knows and that it works - I have faith in the medical system and I am "saved" <grin>. Now you and pharmacologists might spend a great deal of time studying the pharmacology of an anti-cholinergic drug and which receptors it attaches to - you go to meetings and study this in depth - do I care - no - knock yourself out - you might even come up with a discovery that will hit CNN and they will tell the rest of us and we will say - wow - never knew that - some of us might get interested in pharmacology and begin studying - are we better off if we do? NO - it might increase our faith in the new drug but the drug will still work right? Even if we disbelieve it will still work (although the placebo effect might be lost (and we KNOW how large THAT effect is right?) YES I meant the placebo effect analogy to be in religion as well because I believe that there is a LARGE placebo effect in religion too. Thanks for your input - (I hope that this helps you understand what you were asking of me? and It is nice to have a place to come and discuss what you believe - I enjoy sitting in the back of your "conference" and listen to the new discoveries (to continue my medical analogy) <grin>) Bill | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 644 Registered: 1-2003 |
An SDA on www.carm.org writes: >>The Bible is the interpreter of all doctrine, it >interprets >>itself and also the writings of Ellen White. The purpose of >>her writings is to help us better understand the Bible. >The >>lesser light directs our minds to the greater light, and >helps >>us understand it better, but it does not take its place. Our friend (former SDA responds): It's like reading a book after you see the film that was based on the book. When you read the book after seeing the film, you will see the movie scenes in your mind because your mind has been pre-conditioned with those scenes. It will appear to you that the information in the book confirms that which was shown to you on film. You end up reading the book through the eyes of the film's director, not your own. Your imagination has been taken hostage, so to speak, by the director's own intentions with how he/she wants the book to play out on film. However, if you read the book first you will see a multitude of inconsistencies when you view the film afterward. That is because your reading had not been pre-conditioned by viewing the film first. Your imagination was free to see with your mind's eye and draw on a blank slate without any pre-conditioning. You end up reading the book through your own eyes, not those of the film's director. When you are pre-conditioned by Ellen White to read Scripture according to certain patterns, you cannot help but find that the Scriptures confirm what Ellen said they would. Pheeki adds: I have never thought of it like that!!! That is a profound analogy! (Freeatlast-I hope you don't mind me posting this!!) | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 |
Catalyst: Yes, I also believe that there is a lot of bible texts that we just do not understand or have used the wrong way. There is so many "truths" and most of them is made up by human systems affected by church history (adventism is a part of that...). There is modern tools to interpret the Bible - and a great benefit to use them. An alegorical interpretation can just hit the point for one person while say nada to another. At my bibleseminair we used the book Interpreting the Bible by Stuart&Lee. It gives a good background on different ways to look at the Bible. The first quest is to ask what the text said to the people in the original context. Only by knowing that you can move to the question what it means to me. A good book about Jesus, put inte his real context as a Jew and Rabbi, is "The Historical Jesus" by Tom Wright. Both these book take no "truth" for granted but keeps all possible input open. Bless /D | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 239 Registered: 8-2004 |
Bill, Sounds like your 'highest authority' is your own philosophy, or, to put it another way, your own mind, like you worship the God of your own understanding. Just an observation! Mary | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 240 Registered: 8-2004 |
Oh, and I wanted to comment on this too: Re: "We can't generate our own faith" If I have not faith, it is God's fault? Hmm. Where does faith come from? Romans 12:3 (King James Version) "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Wycliffe New Testament) "For I say, by the grace that is given to me, to all that be among you, that ye understand not more than it behooveth to understand, but for to understand to soberness [to not savour, or know, more than it behooveth to know, but to know to soberness]; and to each man, as God hath parted the measure of faith." Romans 10:17 (King James Version) "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Wycliffe New Testament) "Therefore faith is of hearing [Therefore faith by hearing], but hearing by the word of Christ." Ephesians 2:8, 9 (King James Version) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Wycliffe New Testament) "For by grace ye be saved by faith, and this not of you [and that not of you]; for it is the gift of God, not of works, that no man have glory." If faith were NOT from God it seems that we could boast 'WE have faith' as one of our good works! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2541 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm rejoicing in God's goodness today also, Shontay--thank you for your post! Bill, your statement "What I am saying is that I do not think that everyone must be a theologian to be saved - look at the thief on the cross if you disbelieve this. <grin>." supports my point. What we KNOW does not determine salvation or truth/reality. Reality is much bigger than we can see, and spiritual reality is invisible to us. Again, attempting to make "philosophy" and one's intellectual understanding equal to spiritual knowledge is a false analogy. Whether or not Christianity is "logical" does not make it valid. Yes, certain historical and logical deductions support it, but ultimately it's about knowing Jesus--and that word "knowing"--as when God will say, "I never knew you"--is a word that connotes sexual intimacy. It's not about intellectual assent. It's about total surrender, about accepting the Holy Spirit's indwellilng of us and about allowing ourselves to surrender our entire lives, dreams, plans, heart, love, and potential to Jesus. It's about becoming one with Him. Facts are fine and even helpful, but when God reveals Himself to a heart wanting truth, that revelation is far more than knowledge. In order to experience this sort of "knowing", we have to be willing to give up everything we have believed is true and allow God to teach us through His word, both affirming what our heads knew if they knew correctly, and revealing truth we had never seen. Our words may sound similar, but if we do not know--in the Biblical sense--Jesus, they will not mean the same things as they do to one who does. Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2005 |
HeLovesme2 - My highest authority is the Bible - it is necessary since I am not a theologian and cannot read Greek and latin etc that I listen to others who do study - Since the time of Jim Jones and EGW it has dawned on me that just because a respected person says that something is true does not mean that it is or that the Bible says that or even MEANS that. Consequently - I am not planning on using the Nuremburg defense (I was a good soldier). I am going to run all things through the good sense that God gave me - so yes - when it does not fit. . . Regarding the Faith comment - I was quoting Colleen I believe who said that God was responsible for giving us faith. Bill | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 243 Registered: 8-2004 |
And I was agreeing that God DOES give us faith. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen - I have tried to understand this statement and cannot: Begin quote: What we KNOW does not determine salvation or truth/reality. Reality is much bigger than we can see, and spiritual reality is invisible to us. Again, attempting to make "philosophy" and one's intellectual understanding equal to spiritual knowledge is a false analogy. end quote. I hope that you are not saying that you cannot know and understand things that are spiritual. If not then you are right, we need to find someone to explain it to us and follow them blindly. Knowing Jesus and "being one with Him" are all nice religious things to say. Other than to say and use them in the same sense that I would about my wife they make no physical sense. Jesus/His principles and I are on a walk together. I believe the Bible - but am NOT willing to be beat over the head with things that someone says that it says - PARTICULARLY when they fly in the face of logic. As someone said - why would God use a falsehood to teach a truth? To put it slightly differently - why would God give us logic and then do everything totally illogical? Look at the world - the physical world it totally logical. The problem is in importance - Jesus came to say that being first in line was not important - in His universe being kind was more important. Bill | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2005 |
Helovesme2: If God does give us faith and I have none - then is it God's fault? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 244 Registered: 8-2004 |
Consider the verses just mentioned. "God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith" | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 51 Registered: 6-2005 |
And if I have NONE - i.e. I am Hindu/Muslin/devilworshipper/pick something here <grin> NONE - zip - do da. . . Whose fault is that? Bill | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 246 Registered: 8-2004 |
Oh, you think they don't have faith? |
