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Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes - they have faith that ALLAH will save them or that they will come back in another life. They have no faith in Jesus?
Right? Is that not the faith that God would give to someone?
Bill
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 247
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it?

Acts 17:23 (King James Version)
"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you."

People need to be told the gospel. That's why missions are so importaint (and why it is even more important to be living witnesses in our everyday lives). That doesn't mean that God didn't already give them faith. Romans still says "EVERY man".

Acts 17:26-28 says God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

Maybe you've heard the saying "Sure I'll give you the directions, but you can't get there if you start here!" Well with God, you CAN get there from here or anywhere else that humans start. He has promised that when we search with all our hearts (and are willing to give up all our presuppositions) He WILL be found of us. . . and He gives us the faith we need to start the search.
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 54
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK - so you are saying that EVERY man who has ever lived was given faith by God? So every man that has died had:
1. adequate faith given to them by God.
2. if they did not become Christian they will held accountable and will be burned forever in hades?
Just checking. . .
Bill
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 250
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To the first statement, yes. I do believe that God has given every person adequate faith. It's not always easy to understand how, though I think I have an inkling of why.

The second point seems to be a logical fallacy though, or at least an impossible assumption. 'Christianity' of course did not even exist until around 2000 years ago. That's recent, in historical terms, no matter what view you take of the age of the earth.

Romans 1:20 (King James Version)
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE" (emphasis mine).

Romans 3:22-30 (King James Version)
"for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."

I don't know how He does it, but I fully trust that all, both pre- and post- cross, who are redeemed, are redeemed thru Jesus. After all there is no other way.
Patriar
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Username: Patriar

Post Number: 173
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill:
Bill: It keeps coming back to faith. Either I have faith in myself, or I have faith in God. There will never be an answer to every question at one time.


Mary: Thank you for your Bible quotes. I have enjoyed reading the Word during this discussion.

Shontay:Thank you for your blessings. You are a treasure.

In Christ,
Patria
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 4:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patria-
I have faith in God - consequently I am willing to say the following - when my understanding does not make sense, since God is trustworthy it must be my understanding that is wrong.

You and I only differ in that you continue to say:
1. "my" understanding is correct
2. I cannot make sense of it but God is trustworthy so it is ok.

I say:
1. I cannot make sense of my understanding
2. my understanding may not be correct
3. it does not matter because God is trustworthy
Thanks for your input...
Bill
Taybie
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Username: Taybie

Post Number: 56
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patriar :-) You are often my blessing in these posts! :-) I praise God for your faithfulness and devotion to Him...and praise God for His love that flows and struggles and reasons and covers us all!! I just feel so led to spread a little love through this thread...

I speak peace to every reader of these words. I pray that God Almighty,
the Lord God Strong and Mighty
the Lord God Mighty in battle
the King of Glory give you that peace that surpasses understanding, questions, doubts, fear and anxieties.

I pray He floods your home, life, work, marriage, children and all the places you touch with His powerful PEACE...

He is Invincible
He is Incredible
He is Indescribable
That's MY God!

The grave could not hold Him
Death could not stop Him
Hell could not singe Him
That's MY God

He is All Knowing
He is All Seeing
He is Altogether Lovely
That's MY God!

They tried, but could not Shake Him
They tried but could not Break Him
They tried but could not Take Him
That's MY God!

He is the Prince of Peace
He is the Great I AM
He is the Everlasting Father
That's MY God!!

Words can describe Him
Sound cannot display Him
Colors cannot detail Him
That's MY God!

He is Compassionate
He is Kind
He is GOOD
That's MY God!!

Doubt doesn't Change Him
Fear doesn't Erase Him
Queries don't SCARE Him
That's MY God!!

He is IMMOVABLE
He is INNOVATIVE
He IS INTELLIGENCE
That's MY God!!

And you cannot PREDICT Him
You cannot CONSTRICT Him
You cannot DICTATE to Him
That's MY GOD!!

He IS WORTHY
He IS HOLY
He IS PERFECT
That's MY God!!

He has no ROBOTS
He has no LIMITS
He has no FEAR
That's MY God!!

You CAN TRUST Him
You CAN CHOOSE Him
You CAN LOVE Him
That's MY GOD!!!!!

He will NOT LEAVE
He will NOT FORSAKE
He will NOT LIE
That's MY God!!

He wants you to UNDERSTAND His ways
He wants you to LOVE His way
He wants you to TRUST His way
That's MY God!!

He does NOT MISLEAD
He does NOT MISDIRECT
He does NOT MISUNDERSTAND
That's MY GOD!!

He can take your QUESTIONS
HE can take your FEARS
He can take your ANGER
That's MY God!!

He subdues NATIONS
He is PERSISTENT in His LOVE
HE does NOT WALK OUT after a DISAGREEMENT
That's MY God!!

He IS the GREATEST FRIEND
He IS THE GREATEST LOVER
He is THE SWEETEST ONE
That's MY GOD!!!!

And He is all I need...I pray that we all come to a place of rest in Him...Rest in HIM...not our understandings or arguments...but in Him.

WOW!! How AWESOME is HE??? I LOVE YOU JESUS!!!

Shontay

Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1072
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you write that?? That was incredible!
Taybie
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Username: Taybie

Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Melissa

I heard something like that somewhere...so yes and no..it's my version. :-)

HE'S Incredible!

Shontay
Patriar
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Username: Patriar

Post Number: 174
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Shontay:

Bill: You may disagree with me, but I only have repeated what the Bible says. The Bible's infallibility is the only thing (I remember) that we've discussed. If you want to talk about hell/divine election/who wrote Genesis, etc. I am not nearly so dogmatic. The Bible's infallibility however, is not an issue that is debatable. Period. You obviously disagree. I say that is because you do not have faith in God. In fact you said that if something comes along to change the direction of your thinking, you'll change it. While that is FABULOUS when you're talking about the state of the dead or an argument with your wife. It is a precarious position to be in when discussing the infallibility of the Word of God. God doesn't depend upon my logic or understanding. The Bible says His ways are so far superior to mine that I cannot begin to fathom them. So yes, we know what we know about the universe. We don't know what we don't know. We know what we know about Science...we don't know what we don't know. You get my point. You seem to say that this gives you a position of "waiting" to see what happens next. I say I am absolutely sure of WHO God is and WHAT His relationship is that I will trust it. You use words like trustworthy and faith. But Bill, if you had faith in God, then you would believe what He says. God's logic is so far superior to our own that to even think we "understand" logic is disrespectful to His Holiness.

I am fairly certain you will see my post as "pious" and "my" thinking. And of course, there are all kinds of philosophers who will disagree. But I stick with what the Word of God says. This discussion of the infallibility of the Word of God has nothing to do with "my" understanding. It is simply what the Bible says.

I won't be entering this discussion any longer because the arguments have come full circle at least twice. The bottom line is I believe the Word, you do not. I am praying for both of us to have clarity.

Thank you so very much for the opportunity to debate this, though. God is Good and oh how I praise His name.

In Christian Love,
Patria
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 1858
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shontay,
Thank you for your words about your God. I heard them at church last year in my Starting Point class. Then this past Sunday I was helping in the current Starting Point class I saw them again.
The speaker is a black minister who has a booming voice and draws my attention to his God. It was a powerful presentation.
I am continually thankful for the presence of God on this web site. We do not always agree on all things, but we all agree on the gospel. That is Jesus Christ, his birth, life, death and resurrection. I am a babe in the study of the Bible and I will never be the scholar that some of you are. I enjoy reading your debates/discussions, but I do not attempt to include myself in them. Not all of the Bible is clear, but for one thing that is a salvation issue and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ. For me that is all I need. It is not important to me to know everything about the Bible as Long as I know the Creator, Jesus Christ. That is what is important to me.
I pray for each of us on this forum, that God teach us what He wants us to know when we read and study the Bible.
God, You are awesome.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 2548
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, thank you again for your compelling and confident affirmation of the Lord Jesus. You are inspiring!

And Shontay, thank you for that awesome poem.

Colleen
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 57
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patriar: Re: I say that is because you do not have faith in God.

Despite my assertions to the contrary you have judged me. What can I say to such a blunt statement - no where does anyone other than EGW and the pope claim infallability. It is not necessary unless you need to backup dogma with trivialities.

You really should treat yourself to the HISTORY channels series on HELL and the Bible. Very informative about where our belief system came from and how it was developed. Much of it was developed by the church for control issues. Many of the people that are here on this site are in the process of coming out of a "control issue". The demand for inerrancy of the Bible and then a very concise "this is what the inerrant Bible says you must believe and do" is a very controlling atmosphere.

You state QUOTE: if you had faith in God, then you would believe what He says. end quote -

The difficulty is that what we have is an imperfect representation of God's word that has come through humans many times over. We now have to believe what THIS century's interpreters SAY that the Bible says as opposed to what LAST century's interpreters said that the Bible says.

We see through a glass darkly.

I am sorry that you feel the way that you do. It was an interesting discussion.
Bill
Patriar
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Username: Patriar

Post Number: 177
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill:

Yikes! I can see this has really ended up in a mud-slinging contest. I am so very sorry for my part in that. As I re-read my post, I realized it was VERY harsh. Bill, I hope you can accept my sincerest apology. Having two small children; being their mother makes me 'moment by moment' aware that I am indeed most fallible. :-)

Patria
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 60
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 5:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patria,
No worries...
Fallability begins here <grin>.
Bill
Brian2
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Username: Brian2

Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill
I am a skeptic when anything is produced by main stream media about religion and the Bible. I do not think that the History Channel, TLC, ABC etc. tend to offer very balanced picture.
Have you read the "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel? He does a great Job interviewing some of the top scholars in their areas about the History and believabilty of the Bible. He approached this subject from and atheist standpoint. (Which he was a the time of the interviews)

If you have no assurance in the Bible you have no solid ground to stand on. It is that shaky ground that led so many into Adventism.

Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me.? Mohamed! No. Buddha? NO! They may have been great men but they were not GOD.

Brian
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 74
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Note to self - Brian is willing to recommend things that I should read (I have already by the way.) but not willing to take a recommendation from a fellow Christian.

Note that I did not say anything other than you should treat yourself to watching it - it IS very interesting.

Thanks Brian.
Bill
Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 4:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen. Patria, Stan, and all who are praying for me, I want to thank you all, becaue in my life God is revealing now in much more visible situations. I'm thankful also for your insights. After much prayer, I sense know that my problem i similar tp the one described by Tami Chester in last Proclamation, f\the article "From Striving to Surrender". In me is some root of unbelief which needs to be eradicated. This is what I received as a response from God, when I asked Him want is wrong with me. I believe that all my sins are forgiven, I accepted it, but in my most profound self there is still a unbelief, an unexplicable unbelief. This retains me from a full surrender to God, and I'm sad about this. It affects me profoundly, and I think this bound me to adventism.

Another perspective is the fact that, law reveals that nothing we can do is enough to please God. So with my religious mom. She died 5 years ago, but I never measured up to her standards (she was a very dedicated adventist women, devoted to all Ellen White said). Something the image of God she projected is the law image, which is truth. Nothing we can do can satisfy the standards of God. Ok, but I remained with the insatisfaction to never know if my mother truly loves me, because of her law based religions, law based love, conditional love. Knowing that God is the same in his requirements, even more strict, I think, even if I believe with my head that mother was wrong, and I'm without spot in Jesus, I still have in my profound self doubts about the love of God. Like I never know for sure if my mother loves me, it seems that the same is with God for me.

Please pray for me,
Jackob
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 314
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 7:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I think that your experience of a growing intellectual understanding that isn't fully reflected in your emotional response is common. Legalism leaves emotional scars.
I also think that the wonder of unmerited grace is so foreign to everyone, not just SDAs, that it is hard to accept without wanting to add something to it. It sounds too good to be true. So we invent all kinds of extra things to make grace more like our earthly experience.
Javagirl
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Username: Javagirl

Post Number: 62
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,
I am praying for you regularly. I do relate to your experience with trusting God completely. My mother is still alive, and I have stuggled with gaining her love and approval my whole life. When I "returned to the truth, ie SDA church" 8 years ago, I recieved a measure of acceptance from her. After striving for that my whole life, and finally gaining her approval, it is hard to think of giving that up. I am willing to lose that, however painful it may be, but I am willing to follow where God leads.

Our parents are human, God is God. They were limitied in their ability to love, based on their experience and history. God is not. Often we base our perceptions of God on our experience with our earthly parents (or lack thereof). I think as adults we need to challenge that assumption. We need to ask God to remove the barrier of our history with are earthly parents. In forgiving them their shortcomings as parents, we are able to see them as they are, fully human. Then we are more clear to see God as he is, fully divine. There is absolutely no comparison.

Regarding unconditional love, I had to "test" that belief. I know this will sound strange, but this is how it happened for me. I prayerfully listed out all my known "sins" before God, including "breaking the 4th commandment and the known health directives of EGW", sat on my deck with a substance forbidden by EGW :-) and asked God if he loved me, exactly the way I was, and even if I continued in my "sins" would he love me?? The answer was cleary YES! I sat there with tears streaming down my face, and basked in that acceptance and love. It was a turning point for me.

I intellectually knew that God knows everything, but it was a relief to put all my sins and shortcomings out there. I wasnt even asking for forgiveness at that point, just acceptance as I was. The repentance and convictions came later and are still coming...

One of the benefits of the anonimity of this forum for me, is to be able to post any of my shortcomings and questions and doubts, without having to experience the horrified looks or whispers! I see you are taking advantage of that as well. Truly I have experienced evidence of unconditional love here, and pray you are as well
That is one thing I am looking for in a church. A place to come as you are,"confess your sins, one to another" and recieve support and healing.

Holy Father God,
May Jackob experience your unconditional acceptance and love in a powerful way, at this very moment, and in the days to come, wherever You lead him. Thank you Jesus, that you alone fullfill the standards set out for us. May we remember always that "It is finished".
Amen

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