| Author | Message | ||
| Buzz Registered user Username: Buzz Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
Our church, Blythfield Baptist church just started a 6 week outreach series on Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven Life" book. This last Sunday the main text was Colossians 1:16. The preacher had all of these quotes of famous "great minded" people through out history questioning their lives even though they had made great contributions, usually in the sciences. Some realized their life had no purpose without Christ. It was very refreshing to begin a series with an up-lifting message knowing our lives are worth living because of God's plan! I didn't leave feeling doomsdayed to death aka revelation series and we can't wait to go back next Sunday. We are beginning to read the book together also. It is such a welcome change to continue to follow the Holy Spirit's lead as my family draws so ever closer to Christ. Our "off the books" letter is almost complete and the new church membership packet too. God is so good. You all have a blessed rest of the week! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1854 Registered: 3-2004  |
Congratulations on finding a church. God will tell you what to write in you letter and when to send it. Welcome to FAF, if I have not said it before. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1060 Registered: 7-2003  |
We did Purpose driven life last year. We are just starting 40 days of Community. I didn't think I would be able to do another study, but this weekend we had 5 testimonies from people within our church on how their lives had been impacted by our church "being the body" as we say, and I couldn't imagine missing it. One lady was not saved, but had picked up PDL and mentioned to a co-worker (church member) that she had just started reading it. The coworker invited her to our church's PDL series and connected her into their small group study. By the end of the series she had accepted Christ. All her small group came to church for her baptism. And there were other stories. The PDL series gets a lot of criticism (some is valid), but there is some really good stuff in there, so I would encourage you to look up the scriptures in a "regular" Bible rather than the paraphrase Rick uses a lot so you will get the full context of the passage he is quoting. But there is no doubt that God has a plan and a purpose for our lives. We are valuable to the body of Christ and we need each other. Thanks for sharing your blessing! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 778 Registered: 3-2005 |
Buzz, congratulations on your "off the books letter". With regard to the Rick Warren issue, we have had a lot of extensive discussions on this forum about this book. It seems that this discussion always raises a lot of controversy. If this book really is responsible for people coming to Christ, then I would have to applaud it. But, what is wrong with having intense 40 day sessions just studying the Bible with a legitimate translation, instead of studying what a man has to say through twenty different versions with most of them paraphrases which are not God's word? It is true that PDL is not a heretical book. And I am not discouraging you from going. I would just second what Melissa said above about taking an NIV, NKJV, or my favorite (ESV) to the PDL book study, and be like the Bereans to see if these things be true. I wonder what would happen in these thousands of churches who have diligently studied PDL, and then take that same energy and excitement and then go out to the community and invite people in just to study God's word directly, and pray for the Holy Spirit to do the work directly on people's hearts. What harvest of souls might this bring? God promises in His word that it will never return void. Do we really have to go through a man's book with his opinions when we have God's book and His opinions? Oh well, I've already gotten myself in trouble in the past over this issue, but I can't help but raise these questions. God bless you Buzz in your journey out of Adventism. God is sovereign in everything. Stan | ||
| Buzz Registered user Username: Buzz Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 |
Had no idea this was discussed before as I'm only here once in a while. I think it is and will be an uplifting message. Thanks for the advice about Rick's paraphrases however not to worry as long gone are the days when we take someone else word for our own salvation :-) We did that for too many years. I think you can find good value/messages in lots of things as long as you don't go over board then study for yourself. Hope I didn't open a "can of worms" with this new thread? This church does lots of work in our community. They had 200 memebers in the mid 80's and now are up to 1900+ attendees. The minister often talks about majors and minors when it comes to our Chirstian journey and doesn't do any "we have the message and you don't stuff". Great church! Have a great day! | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 250 Registered: 2-2001 |
Stan, Our church did the PDL last year and I could never finish the book. It just fell flat on my mind. Do you think the reason these books are so sucessful and not just studying the Bible for 40 days is that the Bible is so overwhealming to the beginner? 66 books and where do you start? Just me thoughts. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1062 Registered: 7-2003 |
As Stan said, it has been extensively debated. I do think it is valuable as a discipleship tool in Christian basics. I have been through the series and never found anyone intent on Rick's thoughts as he has some secret message. It was no different than using any study guide book, such as Experiencing God or Beth Moore. What I didn't like was the use of the paraphrases. The principles he highlights are in scripture all by themselves and don't need weak translations to give the modern wording. However, the pastors of my church know Rick personally and are in contact with them as brother/sisters in Christ. I have personally spoken to my music minister about some of the criticism of Rick, even questioning whether he is a real Christian, and he adamantly rejected that criticism. His experience with Rick is that he is a sincere, legitimate Christian trying to reach a California crowd that is innundated with entertainment blitz. He rejected the notion that people worship RW any more than Charles Swindoll, David Jeremiah or James Dobson. If you use it as a tool, not as scripture itself, then I think there is value to it as any other tool. Not every tool is appropriate for every situation. Enjoy the study and allow the Lord to use it as he sees fit. Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you to the nuggets of gold for your life. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 237 Registered: 8-2004 |
I know of several people, inside and outside of SDAism who have gotten a lot out of Rick Warren's book. God uses many ways to reach people! I started the book myself, but didn't get very far yet, and now I don't have access to my copy for now. Maybe soon I'll be able to look at it again. Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 779 Registered: 3-2005 |
Violet, I'm curious about your statement regarding PDL, "it just fell flat on my mind", and "you could not finish the book", so I would be curious why? There might be 66 books, but if churches who want to reach out to the unsaved would have an intense Bible study on the book of John, I believe God would honor His Word, and we might see an unprecedented revival, if the same energy and excitement was put into it. But somehow studying the Bible just doesn't get people very enthused anymore. Melissa,I do believe you are correct about Warren, and I have said many times that heresy is not the issue, but I do find it interesting that he feels entertainment is so important. If you go to Saddleback's web site you will find that worshippers have the choice between the main auditorium where they have regular P and W music, but if you want more progressive harder rock and roll, you go to another auditorium for that, and if you would like Hawaiian luau type music, they have another venue for that. A Christian radio program was talking about this and thought it rather strange that music would be the controversy, but the persecuted church would be happy if they could sing praises to God acapella. Now, I am not saying that any style of music is wrong, but it is interesting to think what is most important in worship--Remember, worship is not about us, it is about God. Now I am probably really in trouble! Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2004  |
Stan, I'll stand beside you and take heat too. I don't doubt people may have been blessed by PDL, nor will I debate the relative value of his approach to church. I am concerned that people replace the study of Scripture with books about ideas found in Scripture. If an intense study of the Word of God doesn't get us as excited as a study of men's words, I don't think it is a "program" that we need. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2537 Registered: 12-2003  |
While I also favor direct Bible study (and I believe true, inductive Bible study is what all former SDAs need because we were not truly taught to study it accurately), I believe that God uses whatever means necessary to reach people. Buzz, congragulations on finding a church and a study that is drawing your family together! What an awesome thing! In Philippians some brothers came to Paul complaining that while he was in prison, there were people who were taking advantage of his absence and cashing in, so to speak, on the gospel. They were preaching for personal profit. (Sound familiar?!) Paul's response was interesting. He said that whether from false motives or true, what mattered is that Christ is preached. In other words, people with selfish, profit and power-driven motives will ultimately reap their reward, but if they actually preach Christ, God can use that to change lives regardless of the speaker's motives. And God, as we all know(!), never leaves us where He finds us. He keeps revealing Himself at deeper levels, and He continues to lead us into truth. I share your concerns, Melissa, Stan, and Ric. At the same time, I rejoice with you and your family, Buzz! Praise God for taking responsibility to complete the work He begins in us! Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 260 Registered: 1-2003  |
Stan and others, it is interesting that we are back again on Rick Warren. I have always felt that God reaches out and touches each of us in different ways. As someone mentioned, some are overwhelmed with deep intellectual theology discussions and are first touched in a more relationship based way. Rick Warren's books are not deeply theological nor are they an inductive Bible study but they do make people think about God's purpose in their life. I'll admit his books are not my favorite but I am blessed by them particularly when I see how they bring others to surrender their all to Jesus Christ. If "confession is good for the soul" then I must also say that the discussions of Arminianism (sp?) and Calvinism are not a passion for me. Are they important yes but they do not consume me as they do some. That is just who I am. I am in a place now where I want to just quietly rest in the arms of my Savior and worship Him. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1064 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess what I don't understand in this format is why Rick Warren's book is questioned with its motives when studying some of the other hundreds of bible study books are not? Surely they are all one persons slant of God's leading in their lives that may or may not appeal to others. I'd question whether Rick is really interested in the entertainment factor, but if you're interested in attracting people who don't have a relationship with God...where do you start? Do you only have people come to church who are Christians already? What about people never raised in church and who have an idea it's all dry boring organ music. Is it wrong to say we try to appeal to a variety? There is a local inner city church here who uses Christian 'rap', and though I'm not a fan of the style of music, the teenagers come in droves...and the lyrics, which you can hear and understand, is not really any different than our p&w music except it rhymes differently and isn't really "sung". Paul said I become all things so that I might win some. Isn't it just possible that Saddleback is taking those words literally to get people who would not otherwise step into a church to give it a try? I guess because of the personal connection my personal friends have to that church, I trust a little more that their main goal is still saving souls. If we're going to be critical of Rick Warrens' book for the fact it exists and that people read it, then we need to be fair and criticize all other books that people read that aren't scripture. The woman I mentioned who gave her testimony last weekend had picked up the book as a non-Christian because she was going through a divorce and was looking for direction. What she found was Christ... I understand the issues and challenges having read the book. But a non-believer isn't looking for a deeply theological book. I personally have heard testimony of 2 people who have come to Christ BECAUSE of that book. If they're normal people, they read a book, it made an impact, they've put it on a shelf and moved on to the next. They're not studying it intently for their knowledge of God's word long term. So, if the criticism is that people are reading a book other than the Bible, then let's be consistent and condemn all books. If the issue is that at times (and it is certainly not the majority) his use of scripture is weak, then let's be specific. If it people don't like Rick Warren's seeming flashy personality and style, then let's be clear about that. But if people are coming to Christ and developing a sincere and growing relationship in the Saddleback environment, why do we condemn it? If someone made me go back to a church that required organ music at every service, I'd be tempted to quit going to church . Music is an integral part of my worship, and though other styles may not appeal to me, does that mean it can't appeal to others? California may have more Hawiians than in this part of the country, but don't they do African music in Africa and Asian music in Asia? As long as the words provide a venue of worship and it is sincere worship, won't God be just as honored? Just seems criticism for the sake of being critical. It's funny you mention their website, though. My music minister told a story last night that Saddleback has requested he write an article for their technical magazine about our website and how we use it to get music out to the musicians in advance of the week's rehearsal. Because of conversations here, I always feel a little awkward when they mention talking to them, but it is because I know the heart of our own minister's mission...it's easier for me to give Saddleback the benefit of the doubt. I don't live in the California culture, but I imagine it would be a little different than the mid-western farming community. BTW, Richard! Yesterday, I was listening to Dr. Phil and they were talking about some of the assistance some of the people relocated from the gulf states were receiving there. They mentioned a Covenant Celebration church. I seemed to remember you went to a celebration church and wondered if it was your church they were talking about. I didn't know if 'celebration church' is a common name out there or not. I think they said it was in San Bernadino. Anyway, made me think of you! (Message edited by melissa on September 14, 2005) | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2005 |
Dear forum friends: I had a vision last night! I was told that each of you should send me $1,000.00. If you do, then I will tell you what books to read and what not to read. In fact I will tell you what is true about everything!!!! I prefer cash, by the way!!! ROFL Thought a little humor might be appropriate right here! LOL ....... Jess :c) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 782 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Jess, God is still sovereign, and He is on the throne. The fact that God's electing grace reaches beyond false theological systems, even to have saved many of my friends and family in Adventism, doesn't then prove that Adventism is a legitimate way to reach people for Christ. There is enough Christianity taught in Adventism, Catholicism, and even some other groups to work on the hearts so that God can save them regardless of their error. As Colleen mentioned, Paul wrote to rejoice that Christ is preached, and Rick Warren does that, and I do not question his motives. I can tell you that profit IS NOT one of Warren's motives, since he donates all the proceeds from the book sales. Melissa, I think Warren gets singled out in this discussion over other books is because no one has ever had the influence in the Church that this one man has had. It is a phenomena beyond measure. Many other very responsible observers are concerned that he has become the protestant pope (Michael Spencer). As Ric_b said above, it is not that the book is necessarily bad. But, I ask once again, why is there such a great passion for thousands of churches to have PDL book studies instead of Bible studies on the book of John, Romans, Galaatians, Ephesians, etc. Oh, the riches that are contained in these books! Unfortunately this PDL phenomenom has created a lot of superficial Christianity. The Bible is not studied with any thing close to the same passion that PDL is studied. One other point needs to be mentioned, and that is, the evangelical church is not growing significantly in the US. Despite all these great music and entertainment programs, there is no evidence of significant church growth. In Orange County, Saddleback draws out Christians from the smaller churches who want to come experience the big Disneyland worship experience at Saddleback where a worshipper can "have it their way" with the worship style that suits them best. Colleen mentioned inductive Bible study above. If more churches were teaching the Bible the way Colleen does at our FAF study each Friday night, then we would have a Biblically literate Christian church, and these faddish books would not be selling like they are. Thanks Richard and Colleen for making Friday nights one of the most spiritually uplifting and edifying experiences I have ever seen. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2544 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have to mention here that Ric-b and Raven (Sheryl) and tdf and Mike and Rebecca Lorey are also doing straight inductive Bible study at their new Friday night studies in Ohio. Already people are looking forward all week to delving into the word. The word of God is alive, and its Author teaches us Himself when we ask Him to and devote oursleves to His word. All praise goes to God who meets all of us when we study and reveals Himself through His own word. I do agree with Stan that the Christian community in general is missing out on a huge blessing and great spiritual deepening by taking Bible study lightly. It is our food and drink, and Jesus is both the Source and the Object of our worship and praise. Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 252 Registered: 2-2001 |
Stan, I have no opinion on if others should read or not read the PDL. Many in our church enjoyed it, and if it gets people talking and thinking of Jesus who can argue with that. I was just at a point where I was thirsting for a more involved study and it was like taking sips of water after mowing an acre with the push mower in July. (I live in Oklahoma its hot!) I was just trying to say that the Bible in its entirety can be very daughnting to just open up and start a Bible study. I do my best studying when a question is posed and I pull out the Strongs and start searching. It may also be my personallity, I am pretty much an informational reader, not one to read novels etc. I'm a tax accountant, and that in itself keeps you reading in all your spare time. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL Jess!!! Well guess what has been revealed to me... I have been shown that y'all are a buncha yahoos wanderin' in the wilderness of poverty, and confusion even as the children of Israel wandered in the desert of Sin. When the Lord God Said "Step into the water and I will give a land flowin with milk and honey" They said, "But Lord, the river is deep, and wide," and the Lord said unto them, "DO NOT QUESTION ME, FOR I AM YOUR GOD!!" They stepped into the water with singing and dancing, and were given the desires of their greedy little hearts. Brothers and sisters, If you will step into the waters of sacrifice unto the Lord and give unto me the assets to which you so desperately cling; if you will give unto me your money, your houses, and your cars, you will be enriched beyond anything that you could imagine. Your family will leave you, you will become a pauper, and you will live in a van down by the river! So give, brothers and sisters, GIVE! Hehehe, perhaps you and I could start a new "christian" TV network. We have the experience after all. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 261 Registered: 1-2003 |
Melissa thanks for thinking of me . . . but that is not my church. Some members of my church have been involved in the relief efforts going on there and a few are also considering working and supporting some of the ministries here in the Los Angeles area who are providing support for a few hundred victims of the tragety in LA. I've thought of taking the training from the Red Cross to be able to help out locally. There is a church in LA which is taking several hundred people. In Christ, Richard | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 783 Registered: 3-2005 |
Violet, Thanks for your response. Your analogy is very interesting. Stan |
