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Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 738
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Belva mentioned above how the SDAs on Revival Sermons were talking more about the gay celebration that was washed out than the compassion for the victims. Unfortunately this spirit is not limited to Adventism. This AM at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, Pastor Chuck Smith, instead of emphasizing the plight of the poor innocent victims of Katrina, announced that a gay celebration called "Days of Decadence" was supposed to be held this weekend and had to be cancelled because of the storm. Then there was a loud applause! I don't know about any of you, but that spirit makes me very uncomfortable. In fact i was horrified that any applause would be in order for a hurricane wiping out any celebration. There is a spirit of fundamentalism that I am starting to see more and more at the church Marti and I attend. They tend to be KJV or NKJV only folks. There is a strong Arminian leaning. But what these people are ignoring is that gay pride celebrations also occur regularly in LA and San Francisco. Why would God single out a city like New Orleans where a debauched group just happened to pick for a celebration? I do not believe this spirit of clapping for a disaster just because it wiped out a gay celebration is Biblical. What do you think?
And yes he also mentioned how we could help thru different agencies, but this other incident seemed to overshadow the helping part.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 1839
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,
I agree with you. Gay celebrations happen in all big cities and God does not stop them.
These bad things happen to the good and the not so good as can be seen in New Orleans.
I like the book, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People". It is written by a rabbi, Kushner by name. Here he is a rabbi and he has a son with progeria. What did he or his son do to deserve that? The boy eventually died. The gist of his book is that bad things happen to good people because we live on a sinful place. That is the main point I took from it.
I forget the point I was trying to make with my comment about Rabbi Kushner. Senior moment!!!
Anyway, I do agree with you Stan and anything can happen to anyone, at any time and it is not just because some one is bad.
Our God is to awesome to do something like that at this time. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Diana
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 946
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The interesting thing is that the celebration went forward anyway. (Though on a smaller scale than it would have been, I would imagine.)

The AP said this:


quote:

Amid the tragedy, about two dozen people gathered in the French Quarter for the Decadence Parade, an annual Labor Day gay celebration. Matt Menold, 23, a street musician wearing a sombrero and a guitar slung over his back, said: "It's New Orleans, man. We're going to celebrate."




I do agree Stan, that any mention of the gay celebration was probably inappropriate, and especially if the applause was loud and deliberate (rather than merely reflexive), then that is just horrifying as you say.

Belva,

Those quotes that you posted are all "genuine" quotes from the writings attributed to Ellen G. White. Was there something more you hoped to have clarified, more specifically?

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on September 04, 2005)
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 739
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, we in Calif. all live on an earthquake fault. A disaster could strike us anytime. And maybe there will be fundamentalists applauding for an earthquake because a gay pride parade was planned. I think the Biblical principle is stated by Jesus when that tower fell on the just and the unjust(I can't think of the text now), but He made clear that natural disasters happen because we live in a fallen world.

Stan
91steps
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Username: 91steps

Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 6:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belvalew, THANK-YOU for NOT listing ADRA! The SDA Churches down in the diaster area are covered by ARM insurance, so do not be duped by ADRA's please for money to help rebuild them. ADRA will use the money for everything BUT helping those who really need it. ACS is a good organization, myself, my wife and I are going to donate to the Humane Society, since we have a bunch of critters.
Leigh
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Username: Leigh

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 6:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, yesterday our pastor quoted from the text you mentioned above - Luke 13:1-5

"There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

He reminded us that New Orleans was no more sinful than any other city in the US.

Our church is collecting donations to send to Samaratin's Purse and Operation Blessing.
Lydell
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Username: Lydell

Post Number: 711
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Leigh! My in-laws are far too quick to pipe up with the, "well just look at the sin in the area these days so no wonder" bit when a natural catastrophe happens. My husband finally made the observation to them that hurricanes have been happening this time of year for quite a long time, so you can't exactly say it is God's judgement... Oh, gee, they hadn't ever thought of that. Just makes you sick to hear stuff like their comments when you know people's lives have been ripped apart, ya know?

My husband has a friend here who will be letting some survivors stay in a house he owns rent free. Thought that was awesome. We will be taking food to them. Evidently the womans mother is in the hospital, and her 10 year old son has muscular distrophy or something and is confined to a wheelchair. There's just so many sad stories.

We are encouraging people to pray very specifically for needs that the Lord may bring to mind. The disaster just has so many varied needs, doesn't it? I have to believe that the Lord will use his children to intercede for folks.

I remember after hurricane opal we had had no damage to our home, but the mess in the yard was just incredible. We eventually lost track of how many loads of limbs and debris we hauled away...think we lost track after 21. And we are 90 miles from the coast! We had been out of town when the hurricane hit and had actually been desperately trying to get home, driving through the storm at one point. We were just so anxious on the drive home, seeing the destruction along the way, listening to the radio reports that our area had been hit hard. See, our teenage son had been home alone. Couldn't call, had no idea if he was okay. I can't begin to describe the horror of the last mile, seeing that a tornado had hit 500 feet from our home, then the foot deep debris in the road in front of the house. And then the incredible relief at seeing our son alive and well.

Anyway, we had no electricity for 3 days, which meant we also had no water or sewer. It was over a week before we were able to make contact with friends. My husband and I noticed that for the first 5 days we couldn't sit down to eat. Nerves. You just couldn't disconnect and just SIT. The worst for us was only 5 days, can't imagine what it must be for these folks!

I relate all that to say, please pray for the emotional/mental needs of folks who have been involved.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 1842
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 8:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not know why I am shocked/amazed by the actions of the SDA church, still, after 1 & 1/2 years out of it. The comment that 91steps made about ADRA using money collected for anything but the reason for which it was collected just rubbed me the wrong way. That is disgusting.
I have said before and will continue to say, I have learned more about the SDA church since I decided not to rejoin it, then when I was a member of it.
Thank you God for gently pulling me out starting more than 30 years ago.
Diana
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 647
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

91Steps, I'd like to claim responsibility for the intelligence behind the list I posted. However, it was compiled by a national news service and they did their homework very well based on who was actively on-site making a difference. I almost stripped out the mention of ACS because I know they will be passing out tracts and such, but I also heard that in their packets that they were giving to each of the refugees they assisted included fresh clean clothes, toiletries, basic medicines/bandages, food and water. These simple things can actually mean the difference between feeling like an animal and feeling like a human being. For some it is the difference between life and death.

I had already heard that ADRA only provides service overseas, and their funds have been raided to pay the bills for wayward SDA ministers and officials.

Thank you, Jeremy, for determining the originations of those quotes. Some of the accronyms were unfamiliar to me, and when you said that they were new releases of her same old tired quotes, that made sense. You are so wonderful to do the research that you do for us.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 2500
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, you made an excellent point. Somehow mentioning the gay parade in the context of this horrifying hurricane is shocking. And you're right--what will happen when the Big One hits Southern or Northern California?

This situation reminds me again of the sermon by John Piper based on Romans 1 I heard last week . Piper emphasized the point Paul makes that when people suppress the knowledge of God, God gives them over to their own wickednessótheir lusts, perversions, and depraved minds. This "giving them over" is the wrath of God being poured out on them, according to Paul.

We're quick to say God is judging the wickedness of people by allowing natural disasters. Yet the Bible identifies people's intractable depravity as the outpouring of God's wrath.

Perhaps there are times when God in His mercy destroys evil, but we really can't look at disasters from our perspective and decide WHY it happened. We can know that people steeped in sinósuch as the people abusing fellow victims and shooting rescue workers, etc.óare experiencing God's wrath. Simultaneously, God is present, and His love and provision and peace and mercy and redemption are being poured out as well.

Our pastor made an excellent point yesterday when he said that God administers His power against evil partly through His churchóthose of us who are born again and carry the Holy Spirit into the world.

We truly have no business applauding the cancellation of an evil event when we do not embrace the enormity of the general suffering surrounding that cancellation, as Stan was pointing out.

I agree with your suggestion of a spirit of fundamentalism, Stan--whenever we focus on enforcing Biblical principles instead of on preaching Christ and the cross, we have lost our center and are preaching "another gospel". Jesus and His death is our gospel. Moral living is the outgrowth of the gospel, not the other way around. As God's hands and heart in the world, we are obligated to respond to human need by prayer and by assistance as God impresses us to become involved.

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 741
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And then think that it didn't just hit Louisiana, but Miss., Alabama--there was no gay parade scheduled there!

Leigh, welcome back, and thanks for coming up with that Luke 13 text I was thinking of. That is where Jesus states as clearly as possible the Biblical principle behind natural disasters. Fundamentalist pastors have no business pronouncing the judgment of God in this very broad disaster. Jerry Falwell also made a fool of himself right after 9/11 pronouncing judgment on gays. This type of stuff is what discredits the cause of Christ, and puts Christianity in a false light. This broadcast of this service that I heard went out over world satellite radio, and the internet.

Stan
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 650
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Subject: Temporary Housing For Katrina Victims

Dear Friends,

Please pray about offering your home temporarily to victims of Katrina. Continental airlines is granting 1000 free flights to the victims. Most of these people do not have homes to go to.

Here are two websites to check out

www.hurricanehousing.org
www.shareyourhome.org

The greatest need is within 350 miles of the areas hardest hit. Therefore, the likelyhood of someone making it to California is minute. However, you never know what the Lord will do! Please pray about this opportunity and pass this 5nfo on to others.
Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 118
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The thought comes to me, the Jews were quick to blame any catastrophic event or birth defect on Sin as a way of placing blame. Maybe it was because they had been so intensly involved in a theocratic government, but they saw everything bad as a judgement from God. That led me to the following dialogue involving Jesus...


John 9:1-4
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is
(NIV)

I believe that we who have been raised in Adventist education have been taught this line of reasoning. Because SDA's are special, they are exempt from the bad stuff. Anything bad that happens must be the result of God's judgement. Aids was Gods way of punishing the Gays. An earthquake and its attached Tsunami is a way of punishing Islam.

I believe one of the biggest mistakes Christians can make is to try to place context around events of this world. Christians can't see what God is accomplishing or how things are streaming as we approach the end of this world.

As a former adventist I find that I sometimes am so inculcated with end time phobia and brainwashing that I am not able to clearly think through and understand much of what I read as it relates to the end of time.

Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1035
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally, it has been my own sense of helplessness seeing the people suffering, feeling the need to find purpose and a solid reminder God is in control. It seems "bearable" for lack of a better word, to believe in purpose in the midst of such significant loss. Maybe it's just a coping mechanism.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1903
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear 91, I am courious as to what ADRA would be using the money for? I was with the understanding that ADRA sends actual people to doisaster areas to actually help the people with their needs. Have I been misinformed about this? Just what does ADRA use its donated money for? Do they limit their assistance to only practicing SDA's? I think ADRA gets a lot of government funds so legally they cannot discriminate based on religion, gender, race, etc. Please explain.
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 625
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My brother drove down to New Orleans with a truckload of water, peanut butter and bread. He was turned away at 3 checkpoints...not to be deterred, he met a man walking down the road who knew the back roads into N.O.

This man guided him into New Algiers (the projects) and he was able to hand out his stuff. He said the people were nothing but polite and grateful. No shoving, or grabbing, etc.

It was getting dark and he wanted to get out of the city and was about to leave when a woman named Queen approached him. She had been in the flood in her apartment but the water only reached her chest and then receeded.

She is the caretaker of 3 elderly men. She had been promised a ride out of N.O. since Tuesday but none of the people had returned for them. She told them men not to worry, that God was sending them someone.

She asked my brother if he could take them out of there...he just happened to have 4 seats left. He drove them to Houston, but Houston was full. So he brought them home to all of us.

I cannot tell you what a delight they are. They are so precious. My brother is a hero. He said God told him to go...the rescuees are calling him Moses, now.
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 752
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a great story Pheeki. Your brother was definitely an "angel" sent to help in a time of need.

Stan
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 2509
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Pheeki, what a story! Praise God for your brother's obedience to His prompting.

Colleen
Mrsbrian3
Registered user
Username: Mrsbrian3

Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki,

That is a great story. Obviously you and your family have our prayers, but are there any items that you need? Do you have everything you need to take care of these four people? Are they still with you? Do they have some place to go? Please, if there is anything that you need, let us know! I know there are those of us who would be willing to put "things" or cash in the mail to you.

Kim
Leigh
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Username: Leigh

Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, your story brought tears to my eyes.
leigh

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