| Author | Message | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2005 |
Dear folks I just scanned Goggle with a search for Ken and Nancy Eirich. My interest is because they will visit Sweden for a couple of weekends in november. Read about their book at: http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=0968429319 Found it a litte stange the quote "What a wonderful testimony to the power of Godís relentless grace to change lives". This makes me wonder who the gospel is aimed for, people who are not inside the Kingdom or those already inside? Have anyone read their book? Does anyone know their agenda, and do they have an hidden agenda outside the Pauline gospel? Bless Dinolf | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 994 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dinolf, looking at that page about their book, it doesn't look like it has anything to do with the Pauline gospel--it looks like it's all about the SDA church and how important it is to become Adventist, and how God supposedly led them into SDAism. And the foreword is written by Doug Batchelor of Amazing Facts (or Annoying Fiction, as Susan on here used to say!). I would stay far away from these folks who are promoting the Adventist church. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2658 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dinolf, I just went to the site also. The recommendations are all written by well-known Adventist media personell--Marvin Moore is editor of Signs of the Times, Feyerabend was with It Is Written, Shawn Boonstra is with It Is Written, and Doug Batchelor--well, Jeremy mentioned him. Honestly, I believe that these two people's focus will be to promote Adventism. They were, after all, Pentecostals who became Adventists, and their book is about that story. They will be Adventist "poster children" for the irresistable "truth" of SDA-ism. It's not surprising to me that Pentecostals would become Adventists. If they believe the 10 Commandments are relevant for today (and I believe most Pentecostals would say they are), then the Adventist argument that the fourth commandment must be kep is logical. I recently had a conversation with a person who converted to Adventism out of multi-generational Pentecostalism. This person discovered serious corruption in the administration of the Pentecostal church in the area where he lived, and a few years ago attended an Amazing Facts seminar and became Adventist along with the extended family. Today this person is looking for a way to exit Adventism appropriately. In short, a conversion from Pentecostalism to Adventism does not impress me except to reinforce the seriousness of the Adventist rationale and the faulty teaching of the new covenant among many Christians. The fact that this couple has published a book and is travelling to speak for the church tells me they are being used as an excellent public relations exhibit--especially in this time when many people are questioning their Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 857 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pentecostalism is just as much a false gospel as Adventism is, so there is really no difference. This statement may upset some people. What I mean by this is that Adventism has an extra-biblical authority in EGW, and therefore a different gospel. Much of Pentecostalism has an extrabiblical authority in their tongues, visions, laughing in the spirit, and slain in the "spirit" (whatever that means). If one of their gurus such as Benny Hinn says a message is from God, then they don't question it, regardless what the Bible says. So if someone from SDA claims to convert to Adventism, then like Colleen, I am not impressed. Pentecostalism also is just as tied up in legalism as Adventism, as they believe in tithing, abstaining from wine, avoiding jewelery, forbidding dancing, card playing, and many other things which are not even mentioned in the Bible. Fundamentalism by any name is another form of Galatianism. Stan | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2005 |
"AMEN!" Colleen "AMEN!" Stan Jess | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2005 |
Are there any sincere Christians among the famous Adventists? I am talking about ones that don't use deceitful tactics to bring in people, but those who use the Bible alone as a tool and truely believe in their message. I read that many of you don't like Doug Batchelor, but what about Mark Finley? I used to enjoy watching him speak, he seemed so sincere and convincing. In sort of another topic, do any of you know of greatcontroversy.org. It's a creepy sight. They are definite fans of EGW's perfection ramblings. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2660 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pigeonite, I am familiar with some of the people associated with greatcontroversy.org. One, Larry Kirkpatrick, is the senior pastor of the Mentone SDA church which is probably about 5 miles from us. Another of the movers/shakers is Kevin Paulsen who used to be in the Loma Linda area but is now on the payroll of the NY Conference. Both are virulent, reactionary Adventnists. I use those strong adjectives because I have watched them, particularly Kevin, at work. In fact, Kevin knew Richard from college, and he used to drop by Richard's office and talk a bit. They are the TRUE Adventists. They are completely loyal to Ellen, and they believe the SDA church is skating close to apostasy. I watched Kevin challenge Dale Ratzlaff during an audience Q & A session a few years ago when Dale spoke at Trinity Church on a Friday evening. Kevin was relentless, close to rude, and argumentative. As far as whether or not there are high-profile Adventists who are truly sincere and love Jesus--I can't say. I don't know them all. I do believe that none of them are unaware of Ellen's plagiarism and dubious claims and failed prophecies. I remember hearing Mark Finley 10 years ago during Net 95. We were deeply into studying the Bible and doing research on Ellen, and we had already concluded that Adventists doctrines were based on text fragments taken out of context and recombined [sort-of like recombinant DNA--ha!], and we had been systematically reading whole books in context for a year or two. We agreed to do special music at Richard's folks' church for one of their Net 95 meetings, and I was stunned at what I heard. I watched Finley work through whatever the doctrine of the day was--I can't remember now--and just from our previous months' intensive Bible study, I was aware of several texts he shot out in support of his teaching that were used COMPLETELY wrongly. He used phrases from larger passages to prove something the texts were not even addressing. Even worse, he was trying to prove a position (I don't remember exactly what it was, but I think it had something to do with either the Law or the Sabbath) that was unscriptural. he shot out his texts like scatter shot. He moved so fast that there was absolutely no possibility that anyone could look up any of the texts. I remember feeling that deep discomfort, that "creepy" visceral feeling as I realized that he was shamelessly misusing the word of God to validate heresy. His power came from his rapid-fire shooting out of texts giving the illusion of being deeply grounded in the Scripture and a great Bible scholar. On the contrary, he had memorized a "spiel" which, through years of repetition and loyalty to Adventism, he had come to believe. Those texts were not about the subject at hand, and if he were truly a Bible scholar, he wouldn't have dared to misuse them the way he did. The very worst part about the sermon was that while his presentation included projecting the words of the Bible passages he used, the people were not encouraged to look them up, and they were given absolutely no instruction on how to study or read the Bible in context as a whole. The innocent victims leave those presentations believing that the Bible really says what Finley (and Batchelor and Boonstra, etc.) say it says. No, I can't believe they are truly sincere. Oh, they've committed themselves to the theology because they've been taught that it's true, but they have not actually studied the very public criticisms of Adventism with minds that were open to KNOWING. They've been apologists without being Bereans. Further, if they actually acknowledged the truth, what would they do for a living? They would stand to lose everything they know and love. I fear I might have come across cynically. I do not wish to speak cynically of this issue. I believe, as Dale Ratzlaff says, that there are only two kinds of Adventists (besides those who are in flux!): the deceived and the dishonest. I do pray that God will expose and break the spirit of Adventism and bring to freedom those who are in bondage to deception or to dishonesty. Colleen | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2005 |
I meet Mark Finely in late 80:ies or early 90:ies in Sweden. Remember an interviev we made for a radio broadcast. He gave a good impression and even focused on the importance of cheerful, unselfish relations when charing people with the gospel. But just a year ago I was given a videotape of Finleys talks at 3ABN. His outline of Rev 14 leading to the law (sabbath) and spirit of prophecy (EGW) made me question for the first time the true exegetics behind that interpretation. The conclusion is that I can¥t find it based on a true Biblical base. Rev. 14.12 is pointing towards the gospel (testamony) of Jesus Christ and his teaching (law i.e. teaching). I find the Finely I met 15 years ago closer to the gospel than the one I listend to at 3ABN one year ago. Sadly, I would say, and the same experience as Colleen. I do have to agree I suspect the payrole has someting to do with this, at least when looking at the agenada of those who stands behind the payrole. But at the same time I can thank Finley for beeing aware of the unbiblical side of adventism. According to the Eirich. I probably be able to give a report from their crusade in Sweden later. My ears will be open to their open - and hidden angenda. Your reply above will be a great help. /Dinolf | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen, Dinolf: Thanks for the enlightning info on Mark Finley. True, I do remember him jumping from text to text trying to prove a point and doing it rather fast. It is amazing how preachers in dealing with Sabbath issues or Revelation can throw out scattered texts and dates and no one seems to question but just believe it. Did these scholars in college ever verify these dates, or did they just memorize them as being factual? I found myself doing the same a few years ago concerning prophetic timelines. I couldn't verfiy the dates they gave concerning historic events related to prophesy, but still believed them no matter. When later I saw proof about discrepancies in the dates, I was shocked and dumbfounded. Concerning greatcontroversy.org, interesting info Colleen. I know something wasn't right one day when I read from the sight of how perfection must be obtained because our minds won't be transformed at Christ's second coming only our bodies will be, so we must stop sinning now. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 995 Registered: 10-2004 |
Such as this amazing statement from EGW? ;-)
And look at this horrifying quote that I hadn't seen before!
Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 862 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, as I said on another thread today, Arminianism is the religion of the natural man. However, the quotes above have a clearly Pelagian tone to them. Yet, for everyone of those quotes, you can come up with some other quotes that were copied from people like Spurgeon, and then she can sound orthodox. It depends on whether she was copying Charles Finney (the Pelagian who denied the basics of the faith, but is still hailed as a hero by our modern evangelists today), or whether she was copying from the likes of the great Spurgeon or other contemporaries. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1962 Registered: 11-2002 |
In the 1980's in Fresno, Ca. was a wonderful minister at the Fresno Central SA Church. Before this man came to that church as the minister the church only had a few old fogies, super-EGW types who attended their regurally. Thie minister preached the gosple and the gosple only. He would baptize anyone who desired a Christian experience, telling the smokers, drinkers and others that generally SDA pastors won't baptize that we first give our lives to Jesus and then the Holy Spirit works miracles in us. He was wonderful and took that church from a few folks attending each week to two packed services every Saturday. After he had pastored that church for 12 years and never once even alluded to anything EGW wrote or said but studk to the Bible and only the Bible the conference bigwigs told him he had to adhear to church policy about baptism and who can and cannot be members and he had to preach EGW, the IJ and the other unique SDA stuff. He refused and said he would teach the Word of God only and the conference fired him. So, yes, there are truly Christian only SDA pastors but their employment is in jepordy. And in my opinion the term 'Spirit of Prophecy" to refer to EGW is blasphomus. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 996 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, what's interesting is that I've never found an orthodox-sounding statement from EGW that doesn't have anti-Gospel statements surrounding it/explaining it away in the context around the statement. She just could never bring herself to teach the true gospel. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on October 04, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 864 Registered: 3-2005 |
You could be right Jeremy, to be frank, it has been a VERY LONG time since I've researched this, but guess what, I no longer care what she said. But I am glad you are on this forum to be our EGW expert. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 865 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, You have me very curious about that Fresno pastor you spoke about above. Do you remember his name? Was it Ron Torrano? If it was, then I knew him personally years ago, and I heard he eventually left Adventism. Stan | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2002 |
Susan, I second Stan's question. Someone asked if there are any sincere Christians among famous Adventists. I would ask if there are any sincere Christians among the famous "Christians." I can't take TBN, INSP, Word, Golden Eagle, or any of the other platforms for famous "Christians" any more than I can take 3ABN and its famous Adventists. Being a "money changer in the temple," or making a profitable enterprise out of Christianity is generally what launches them to fame. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1964 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Stan and Derrell, Yes, I am referring to Pastor Ron Torrano but I have been told we are not to say the names of the people we are discussing so I don't do that but since my post is very complamentary I guess it's o.k. He pastors Valley Community Church in Fresno. They meet in a rented church out in north Fresno on Saturday mornings. It's listed in the Fresno phone book if you are interested. Derrell, I am like you about the so-called Christian stations. I do however really enjoy and learn alot from EWTN, that is the Catholic tv network. In the daytime the kids at the Catholic schools watch a lot of the programs so there is a lot about the early Christians, the apostles, the Christian martyers, etc. A lot of history. When they get into some of their unique doctrines I can change the station but even that is not obnoxious, it's presented tastefully and humbly and I really like EWTN. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2005 |
Jeremy, I'm sorry that the Bible Ellen White used had so many major printing errors. It's sad no one told her about her missing texts; a couple of which are: Rom 8:1 "Therefore, there is NOW NO condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life SET me FREE from the law of sin and death. v.3 For what the law was powerless to do....GOD DID by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.....vs.4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law MIGHT BE FULLY MET IN US." 1 Jn 5:12 "He who has the Son HAS (eternal) life;... v. 13 I write these things to you who believe . . . SO THAT you MAY KNOW that you HAVE eternal life." [obviously emphasis is mine) It is still very puzzling to me, that with all the "inspired" statements that we MUST reach perfection of character in order to be saved; that I have NEVER heard one minister at the funeral of any SDA say, "Thank the Lord, Bro/Sr so-in-so reached perfection before they died!" Yet they all commend them to eternal salvation in their funeral remarks. How is that? Who is down to a dozen points remaining to overcome before THEY will be absolutely perfect? Shouldn't they be featured on the front page of the Review? Good Lord !!! I should love to have them give me THEIR secret! How DID you accomplish this? And not even by a thought!!! Wow! You deserve the SDA Perfect Member of the Month Award ! What? You say you hear sarcasm here? Hmmm? I don't hear it! But of course I do have a hearing loss. :c) Jess LOL | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 663 Registered: 1-2003 |
I used to think, as an SDA...that if Sabbath was so important, so vital to our salvation...in fact "our salvation" why wasn't it plainer? Why wasn't it sticking out so no one could miss it...not just a bunch of out of context proof texts. I thought God was making it difficult for people to be saved. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2002 |
Susan. Shamelessly wondering after the beast. Taking pleasure in the harlot of Revelation 13, Mother Angelica. Susan, don't you know that those happy little children watching history programs on EWTN will one day be your persecutors? Don't you understand that they are nothing more than Jesuit Pathfinders? Oy Vey! May a church discipline afflict you. Just kidding. Couldn't help it. LOL |
