| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1968 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Derrell, Your humor is amazing. Maybe you could get a job on Comedy Central as a writer. Anyway, on Monday nights on EWTN is a program called Coming Home. You can access it through the EWTN website. It is about non or lapsed Catholics who now are super-Catholics, those who are zellas converets. Awhile back the interview was with a lady who had been raised super SDA and she now is Catholic. Apparently she became a doctor and got a job in a SDA medical center and was expected to do abortions. She refused and then becausae of the respect for life at all stages and in all locations from the wealthy who live in gated estates to the lowest homeless or those in prison she became Catholic. I telephoned Colleen to turn on EWTN immediatelly and watch the program. Maybe Colleen remembers her name. It was very interesting. I attend a prayer and praise group on Monday nights at the local Catholic church. It's wonderful. On the Pastor O'fILL'S WEBSITE i ONCE WROTE THAT THE cATHOLIC PRAYER GROUP i ATTEND HAS A 100% ANSWER TO THEIR PRAYER. i GOT TOLD ON THERE THAT SATAN CAN ANSWER PRAYERS. uNFORTUNATELLY ON THAT SITE THEY WERE TOO SHORT-SIGHTED TO REALIZE THAT THE PRAYERS ARE SAID WITH THE WORDS, "MAY yOUR WILL BE DONE", HENCE A 100 % ANSWER TO THEIR PRAYERS. Oh, I just noticed I must hane hit the shift button. Sorry for all the capitals. | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2005 |
Dinolf and Colleen, You both touched on a couple of points that just get me upset beyond words when I witness it. When a person converts from another religion (ANY other religion) to SDA and speaks or writes of their past religious experience, they are hailed by SDAs as being led by God out of their former religion to SDA. Everything they say about their former religion is taken as absolute gospel. BUT, when an SDA studies out of Adventism, they are suddenly called liars, led by the devil, and every other name in the book. Witness the experiences of Dale Ratzlaff spoken of by Colleen. They froth at the mouth. SDA's (like LDS and many Catholics) can never just study the Bible with non-SDA's to discover what it says ....there is always an agenda to follow. Actually, I have a lot more respect for the people of greatcontroversy.org and other die-hard EGW-ers than those that give her lip service and then pick and choose what to believe. At least they are honest about their religion and what it teaches. DT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2676 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, DT. At least they're honest about their Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2002 |
Susan, Thanks. I have a very good friend who works for EWTN and I'll give him a call regarding that program. I was going through a horrible divorce, and experiencing... well, I cant really talk about it. Its just too much. But, I met this friend at a convention and his love and concern were so palpable. He prayed with me, and gave me a bottle of holy water and a beautiful hand carved wooden rosary. He knew I was a Seventh-day Adventist, but that meant nothing to him. As far as he was concerned, I was a brother in Christ who was suffering and needed help. My pastor never once called or visited during the divorce, afterward, or during the time when I stopped going to church, yet this wonderful Catholic brother ministered to me as no one else has. Don't anyone dare call him the beast of Revelation. He was Jesus to me when I was utterly alone and there was no one else. He and I may have some theological differences, but no one will ever convince me that he is not a card-carrying citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. (that rosary and bottle of holy water remain two of my most treasured possessions for what they meant to that man.) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1893 Registered: 3-2004  |
The first time my sent was sent overseas with the Air Force, a colleague of mine gave me some Catholic medallions that were blessed, to give to my son and daughter in law before they went overseas. This was before I decided not to rejoin the SDA church, but I appreciated them very much as it showed, to me, that he cared. This happened while I was still living in VA. I also have an Uncle, who is a Catholic priest, in Mexico. He has done so much to help people. He has been a priest for over 50 years. Growing up knowing him and all my Catholic relatives, I just did not believe what we were taught in the SDA school. I studied for the tests, got good grades and forgot what I had studied. God is awesome in how He shows His love through others. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1894 Registered: 3-2004 |
I forgot to type in the word "son" in the first sentence and did not proof read it well. In my mind I saw son. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1974 Registered: 11-2002 |
Derrell, On Monday evenings I attend the Prayer and Praise group at the local catholic church. These folks would be considered charismatic Catholics and they do talk and sing in tongues. I have never done that and some groups that do that give me the heebee-jeebees. But, the Catholics do it is such a lovely and peaceful way that it sounds like sweet music being said or sung to God. Look up the website for Fatheer Ray. He has a charismatic Catholic church in the LA area. From what I understand his ministry is not endorsed by the Vatican but then, what the heck, he's 15,000 miles from the Vatican so what are they going to do about it? Reminds me a lot of the individual SDA churches that pretty much do their own thing. I'm to the point already where I don't even get too bent up about all their Mary adoration and some of the other really spun ideas. The concept of purgetory is actually very comforting to me and there are several passages in the Bible that would lead someone to the unbderstanding of purgatory. The Catholic church and the SDA church is organized very similir. Both have a pope. aThe Catholic pope changes whenever the current one dies whereas Pope Ellen will remain the SDA pope. When my SDA loved ones get outta line I tell them to go say 20 Hail Ellens. They hate it when I say that. I think I'm funny in a rude sort-of way and we each bite our tongues and leave it at that. But, really, the Catholic church teaches there is no higher authority on earth than the Pope and the Catholic church. The SDA church teaches there is no higher authority on earth than EGW and the Ceneral Conference. Pretty much the same in my thinking. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 556 Registered: 7-2004 |
Derrell, Your story reminds me of a co-worker in my husband's office. He had suffered several years from foot pain. He had endured several operations, painful testing and countless PT sessions. In all that time, not one SDA ever stopped in to visit, sent a card or called (even after he was at church in crutches and a cast) to pray with him. On a trip to Italy this co-worker purchased some holy water and brought it back with her. When she returned she annointed his foot and prayed with him right in his office at work. It touched him deeply. What a beautiful heart of love and service! God used her to encourage him. It's Jesus NOT a religion of man! | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2005 |
Denise, With qualification needed, obviously, but still you can almost say: "It's Jesus NOT religion, man!" :c) Jess | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 883 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree Jess. Denise, I agree that there are true Christians in both Catholicism and Adventism. There are loving compassionate people in all false religions, and some of them are truly saved. I enjoyed your story. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 888 Registered: 3-2005 |
I just read through the above posts, and there seems to be an inordinate amount of praise and sweet words about Catholicism. Now, why is this? Most of us were delivered from one false religious system called Adventism, so why now embrace another false system called Catholicism. Susan, I read your above post with great concern. You say you actually take comfort in the idea of purgatory? And you don't worry about the adoration of Mary? Do you realize that you are embracing another totally false gospel? All that nice music and sweetness and charismatic stuff is NOT from God. Susan, I would respectfully suggest that you run from that kind of service you are talking about. I was given a CD by one of our Bible study members last Fri. night by John MacArthur that I mentioned on the PDL thread. This CD is one of the most shocking and eye-opening lectures you could ever hear about Catholicism--fully documented! Remember all the effusive praise by leaders in the evangelical community about how nice a man the late pope was, and how he was truly born again--well sadly that is impossible. The late pope wrote a full treatise on Mary, and how you could only come to Jesus through Mary, and how you would have to intercede with Mary and beg her to lead you to Christ. That is damnable heresy and blasphemy. How could someone who believes this stuff be saved? MacArthur was saying that on the authority of scripture, that he could definitely state that the pope was not saved, and that likely he is with the rich man right now as in Luke 16. And Mary worship is only the tip of the iceberg with this late pope, and he details many other damning doctrines that he believed. The new pope Benedictus, when he was installed as the Vicar of Christ (does that term sound blasphemous to anyone on this board?), also committed the care and keeping of the Church into the hands of Mary. This is the spirit of the antichrist, and let no one be deceived. If anyone would like a copy of this lecture by John Macarthur, get my email address from Colleen and email me and I will try to see if I can get a copy out to you. This is a must listen for every current or former SDA or Catholic. All the similarities between these two idolatrous and false systems will be clearly evident. As I said on another thread, it is ironic that Adventism may have been right about Catholicism in many ways, but they didn't realize they were looking into a mirror at themselves--the very beast they condemned is so much like them! Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1982 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stan, I do not agree with those teachings, particurally the Mary mumbo-jumbo. However, there are Bibical passages in which someone could come to an understanding of some sort of purgatory, especially in some of the Apocrapha books. Believe me, I am not of the verge of becomming a true-blue born-again Catholic. At the same time though I do totally love attending the Prayer and Praise group at the local Catholic church. Most the folks who attend that group are very Bibically knowledgeable as well as knowledgable in their early Christian history. I have learned a lot from that group. I attended a three month course at that church on the world's religions. We learned the basics of Hindu, Buddah, Islam, etc. Of course, when we got to Christian we learned that to be a true Christian was to be Catholic and the non-Catholic Christians are not quite at the high of level in their Christianity as the Catholics but I shined that part of the class on and I really did learn alot. I even got to wear a burka on Islam night. Truly though, every Catholic I know puts Jesus first, not Mary, not any other saint, but Jesus. Thanks for your concern. I appriciate it. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 890 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, Please, the Apocrypha is not God's inerrant and infallible word. MacArthur made the point on the tape referenced above that it is purgatory that holds the whole abominable system of Catholicism together. If it wasn't for purgatory, this false system would fall apart. But if you don't agree with all of the Mary mumbo-jumbo, then how can you feel comfortable with the adoration of Mary? Susan, Catholicism is the doctine of demons, and I would encourage you to run, not walk from anything having to do with that false system. I am not trying to be mean. Send for the CD I talked about and make up your own mind. God bless you. Stan | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2002 |
Stan, Let me clarify. I, in no way, adhere to or support Catholic theology, nor do I praise it. I do, however, know that there are very good people in the Catholic Church whose actions and attitudes reflect Christ. I do not hesitate to praise that regardless where it may come from. I have seen precious little of it in my life. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 893 Registered: 3-2005 |
Derrell, Agreed about truly saved and truly good people in many false religions. Thanks for your clarification. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1988 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK, Stan, Here I go opening up pandoras box but I just gotta do it. Do you believe the wine and the bread are the blood and the body of Christ? Before you answer let me remind you of the words Jesus spoke. "Take, eat for this is my body which has been broken for you. Take, drink, for this is my blood which has been shed for you." | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 896 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, I do believe in the Lutheran view of the communion. It is certinly much more than just symbolic. I believe that there is a real presence of Christ in the bread and wine and grace is received in the sacraments. But what I don't believe is the Catholic view of the mass in that in effect Christ is sacrificed over and over again. Susan, I hope you take me up on the free offer of that CD by MacArthur that I referenced above. You will be amazed at how false the Roman system is. Here are a few quotes from the above referenced CD that I am offering to send out if you ask Richard for my email address. "The papacy is nothing more than a front for the Kingdom of Satan" "Christ did not spill his blood so the pope could steal His glory" "The evangelical church today is shockingly ignorant of doctrine, and are cowards when it comes to confronting what the papacy is all about" "The Catholic priests with their vestments resemble Baal worship more than anything else" "The most loving thing that I can do is tell the truth. Nothing is more loving than rescuing people from a damning doctrinal system" "Luther and the Reformers knew from their study of the Word that the Papacy is clearly anti-christ." "Spurgeon said, 'we must make war against the papacy' Away with their evil doctrines. May the smoke of hell do away with this evil" What was it that these godly men knew about an evil system that so many evangellyfish types reject today? Why will not Hanegraf acknowlege that both RCC and SDA are false gospels? Why does Billy Graham ad infinitum go on Larry King and extol the virtues of the papacy? If Catholicism is true, says MacArthur, then the martyrs blood was shed in vain, and centuries of evangelism is rendered meaningless. Now, MacArthur is not some looney tune kook. He is one of the few evangelicals who also is given a forum on Larry King, and when he comes on he does not extol the virtues of Rome. He will not hem and haw like others about whether Jesus is the only way to salvation. I have to correct something I said on this forum several months ago. I said that I didn't believe that the papacy could be the anti-christ. I was wrong. I believe that 2 Thess 2 is very clear that it describes a power that will usurp Christ's authority. I believe that we are living at the very end of time. Jesus warned about false prophets who would come as wolves in sheep's clothing. These wolves can appear to be doctrinally orthodox, and if it were possible Jesus declares, they will deceive the very elect. I can see a scenario in which the pope united with popular or liberal evangelicalism which are lukewarm like Laodicea comes together with Islam to form a great world power. (Realize the pope kissed the Koran recently, and a famous evangelist said that Islam is really quite close to Christianity. Huh?) I could be crazy, and far out in left field, but if you would like to challenge MacArthur's statements, or talk about the scenario above, I welcome your comments. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2692 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, when Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood", he was giving us the symbols of His sacrifice. Communion is a metaphor of Jesus' broken body and his shed blood. The Bible is clear that Jesus died "once for all", and He shed His blood of the eternal covenant on Calvary. If the bread and wine literally became Jesus' body and blood, He would be sacrificed each time someone took communion. Further, if transubstantiation were really real, then communion would be necessary for a person to be cleansed from sin. If communion is the way that Christ's body and blood are applied to us, then Calvary was not enough. His work was not finished on the cross. If Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice on Calvary paid the price for sin, there is no further need for us to ingest His blood and body. Indeed, there is no Biblical suggestion that such a thing is necessary, either. Communion is done IN REMEMBRANCE, not as a fresh application of Jesus' body and blood. We honor and celebrate Jesus' death until He comes again--but we don't "re-sacrifice" Him. He did the one perfect sacrifice already. If communion were a necessary ritual in order to experience the cleansing effect of Jesus' body and blood, then we would be saved (or would be "kept saved") by performing that ritual. Communion would be a work necessary for salvation--in the same way the Sabbath is to Adventists. Jesus' sacrifice was all we need. We are saved by grace through faith--not through literally ingesting Jesus' body and blood. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 313 Registered: 1-2003  |
Stan, I just woke up to see if Annie was home yet and read your post. "It is certinly much more than just symbolic. I believe that there is a real presence of Christ in the bread and wine and grace is received in the sacraments." In what way is it more then symbolic and in what way is there a real presence of Christ in the bread and wine? Is our participation in Communion required for us to receive the grace of God and salvation? Just wonder since you said grace is received in the sacraments. Good night again ! ! !  Richard | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 305 Registered: 7-2004  |
This is an interesting topic for me. I do not believe the bread and wine physically become the body and blood of Christ (as the transubstantiation doctrine teaches), and I do not believe the physical body and blood of Christ is "in, with, and under" the bread and wine as Lutherans teach with their consubstantiation doctrine. However, I tend to think while the bread and wine are metaphorical symbols, there is also a real spiritual presence of Jesus that is received. Don't know what that belief would be called. (That's not to say that I believe you have to do communion to receive Jesus, like a "works" thing. I see it the same way as how one receives the spiritual presence of Jesus during prayer and Bible study.) What bothers me, is when a church insists you have to believe their particular way about communion or you can't be a member. Regardless of what a person believes about it, it's not going to change the fact of what it really is, and it's not going to hurt to participate. The only way you can be hurt by your pariticipation is if your heart is not right with God. I'm working on my argument here, because we're going to have to have this conversation with the pastor at the church we are so far feeling the most comfortable in--a Lutheran Missouri Synod church that has a contemporary service (and has a grape juice option). The way I see it, if the church insists members have to believe the way Martin Luther interpreted things, then that's putting Luther in a similar role as EGW. His view isn't exactly "provable". (Message edited by Raven on October 11, 2005) |
