| Author | Message | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 290 Registered: 2-2001 |
Raven so well spoken. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1159 Registered: 7-2003  |
Pauls, I had an alcoholic uncle who died at 48, looked 88. I understand that routine somewhat. It is the primary reason I never drank alcohol. I didn't want to ever look like he did. But I went overboard with it as well, being very harsh and critical of those who did drink, probably downright obnoxious. That was the pendulum swing to the other extreme. Neither was pretty. But I do understand on some level that concern. My following comments don't really apply to that level of severity. Sometimes, and in some situations, I think that passage about making a brother stumble becomes a crutch for a brother not growing up. 1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours becomes a stumbling block to those who are weak. The verse warns of being a stumbling block for weak brothers, but the presumption is that a weak brother should eventually grow up and it not be an issue at all. Eventually: 1Co 8:8 But food does not commend us to God. For neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. That verse should be the understanding to grow towards. To continue to live as though verse 8 does not exist for very long would seem to be supporting a falsehood because of someone's immaturity. Kids can pretend with Santa Claus a couple of years, but there reaches an age where all fantasies are exposed to reality. Kids who know the truth and hide it to get more presents are being taught how to be deceptive and two-faced. I don't think we want to go there, either intentionally or unintentionally. So, yes, sensitivity. But, teach and continue to grow correcting the false belief at the same time. (Message edited by melissa on October 27, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2815 Registered: 12-2003  |
Melissa, I agree with your take on the 1 Corinthians passage. In context, that passage is discussing Christians eating food offered to idols in the presence of baby Christians who have only recently left paganism. The admonition not to make a brother stumble really had specifically spiritual applications. While I see some some similarity between a situation exposing a person with an alcoholic tendency to alcohol and a situation in which someone is being seduced back into habits and actions that lead one away from Christianity, still I see that we can't use this passage as a mandate for not doing something simply because those around us don't agree or can't participate. I believe that the real issue is, bottom line, what are we communicating about Jesus by indulging in those things that are "OK" for us? For example, a few years ago during a leader's meeting before our women's Bible study, we were discussing this very passage. The issue came up of my in-law's vegetarian status and extreme displeasure with our fixing a turkey (along with vegetarian options) when they came for Thanksgiving. Someone said, "Well, just don't cook what they don't like when they are there." Elizabeth, the leader, instantly reacted. "No," she said; "This is an issue of Colleen being in charge of her own house. She should not have to cease from the things she normally does in her own home just because they don't like it." As I've thought about these issues, I've realized a couple of things. First, the instruction in Corinthians is for "brothers". We are not to cause a weaker brother to fall. Second, even if we can say that my in-laws and I are brothers and sisters in Christ, our serving turkey would never make them "fall". First, our eating turkey will not ever cause them to eat turkey. Second, causing a brother to "fall" means causing him to lose his spiritual footing and turn away from Christ. Our eating turkey, even with a theoretical possible lapse on their part into turkey-tasting, would not constitute their "falling away". Such behavior would have nothing to do with their being in communion with Jesus--and just in case their consciences would be seared by eating meat, they are completely able to resist the turkey. Our eating it is not a temptation for them. Even if it were, there comes a time, as Melissa said, when Christians need to "grow up". We all have to know what environments we can safely be in, and we also must distinguish between personal preference and actual danger. I believe we have often confused issues of spiritual temptation with issues of pleasing people. We really don't have the right to expect people not to do normal, morally OK things just because we can't participate with free consciences. Similarly, we should be free to figuratively "fix a turkey" in front of our figurative vegetarian brothers without guilt. Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2002 |
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Winston Churchill "There are people who strictly deprive themselves of each and every eatable, drinkable, and smokable which has in any way acquired a shady reputation. They pay this price for health. And health is all they get for it. How strange it is. It is like paying out your whole fortune for a cow that has gone dry." Mark Twain "In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." Mark Twain "Digressions, objections, delight in mockery, carefree mistrust are signs of health; everything unconditional belongs in pathology." Friedrich Nietzsche "You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred." Woody Allen "My favorite animal is steak." Fran Lebowitz "Age is not a particularly interesting subject. Anyone can get old. All you have to do is live long enough." Groucho Marx "Everyone is normal until you get to know them." Doreen Williams "He is just a spiritual idiot." Danny Shelton | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2819 Registered: 12-2003 |
I picked up the contrast, Derrell! While I differ with one or two of those statements, still I get your point. Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2001 |
Are we not told to be in the world, but not of the world? How can SDAs be in the world if they do not go around people who have turkey for Thanksgiving. We had one elderly couple in our church that I wanted to invite to Thanksgiving Dinner, but I could not feed them. They were vegan and I would of had to fix two meals--I make homemade rolls with milk or cottege cheese, butter in the greenbeans etc. My family would of revolted if I had made it vegan. It was sad for me as the fellowship time was lost over dairy! | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2004 |
I have been enjoying the posts here the last few days. We are going through a big discussion in our faculty meeting about taking our student body to a prescreening of The Chronicles of Narnia. The ASB wants to take a group to the theatre before it officially opens. This is being offered to schools and church groups in our area. We have a few staff members that are hiding behind this very arguement of the weaker brother. They are also looking at it from a stand point of loss of support from a section of our community that does not approve of movie going. I told our principal that we cant live our life trying to please a group of people who believe that your are rightous by what you do! It will be interesting to see how the next faculty meeting goes. I sometimes get so tired of all the petty arguments that Adventists get themselves involved with. The bigger issue for me is the fact that we cant see the movie before hand. I have been involved as a teacher with showing a movie in my class before I saw it and being caught off guard with something that happened in the movie.........I just hope that the right decision is made for the right reason. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey Colleen, The main point is humour. I collect quotes that amuse me and add them to "My Book of Quotes." I have gleaned a few from this site. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2822 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey, Derrell, I got the humor too! I just found some of the quotes to be 'way more congruent with their originator's personalities than others! Schasc, I SO relate to your faculty dilemma! It reminds me of my Gem State Academy teaching stint...I also remember the time during my senior year at WWC when we showed "Fiddler On The Roof" for the girls' club banquet. The officers and a select faculty committee preveiwed it to see if anything should be cut before showing. There was an animated dicussion among the faculty afterward regarding the dream sequence where Golda sees many ancestors rising from their graves. Should we or should we not showóof all thingsóGHOSTS, especially since we knew where people REALLY went when they die...??!! I'll never forget Gordon Balharry, the dean of the school of theology and not far from retirement, ending the discussion by saying, "Well, I've had dreams I wouldn't want anyone to know about!" The scene stayed in. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 321 Registered: 8-2004  |
Ever notice that what's his name made up that whole dream sequence to convince his wife to change her mind? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2826 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yep! That whole scene is disturbing to me now in ways it never was several years ago. Colleen | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2005 |
Violet--Many SDA's have become like Jews--believing that being around something makes them ceremonially unclean or something...Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a wine bibbler--Luke 7:34 because he hung around with street people, villains, the party crowd and with hookers, etc. People forget its not whats outside you, but inside you that defiles you....Matat 15:17-20... We used to sing a song "Anywhere with Jesus I can safely go..anywhere He leads me in this world below..." The key is "WITH JESUS". There no condemnation for those that are "IN CHRIST" Rom 8:1.... I really am starting to believe that with MY life, instead of trying to come up with all these policies--I should pray and ask the Holy Spirit--He will lead me into the Truth He has for me about that situation. John 16:13..I could never possible figure out all the ramifactions of a particular act...) perhaps your shool administration should quit arguing policy over a moview and get in a circle on their knees and keep praying until there is UNITY regardless of what the decision is. for unity is a marker of the Spirits' presence..... I remember I had a SDA friend who played in a bar rock band weekends...and I judged him harshly...and one day I confronted him about this and he told me he was "called" to this ministry by God--that he wrote the lyrics for the band, and although his gigs were secular (at least that was what he was hired to do, he always included a gospel slant in his lyrics) and he asked me--if I don't go to those people who will--all the other SDA's are too embarassed or afraid to go---and I was humbled and embarassed because I had judged him.....God forgive me for my arrogance...let me trust you and bless others by encouragement and support and not criticism...if you are the Supreme Sovereign of this universe, than all of us are your humble servants--even the unsaved pagan--(Isa 44:28) who are playing a part in your great plan--and who am i to criticize them--for in doing so--i judge you--and that is blasphemy--the same sin that set Satan against you.....forgive me..... | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2005  |
Derrell, I really like the end of that Nietzsche quote, "... everything unconditional belongs in pathology." I would say that applies to darn near all things human, perhaps without exception. -Tom | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 300 Registered: 2-2001 |
Pauls you are so right about SDA's being like Jews, but you are not alone in judging people. That is one area I still struggle with, it is so engrained in me from my SDA days. I love that song, never took it to that context-but it makes sense to use it that way. As long as Jesus is leading and always with us who are we to question where He takes us--He knows so much beter than us where we need to be at every seond of the day. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 964 Registered: 3-2005 |
I am catching up on a few threads today, and I noticed again the alcohol discussion coming up again, and making a brother stumble by what we approve. I heard a great take on this problem yesterday on a Christian apologetics talk show hosted by Greg Koukl at www.str.org, and the weekly Sunday shows are archived so you can listen. A caller raised this issue about destroying your Christian witness by drinking. So Koukl took the caller through the Bible and asked the caller if alcohol was specifically forbidden anywhere in the Bible. The caller had to say no. He then went and defined legalism as any attempt to prohibit behavior that the Bible doesn't prohibit. So, Koukl asked the caller "what is the witness that you are destroying by drinking?" "Is it the witness that Christians shouldn't drink, and is that the message you want to convey, that Christians are known for not drinking? That is not a witness worth protecting." Now, he did go on to say that a Christian should not drink in front of someone who is a recovering alcoholic, as that is just common sense. One more reason I personally see for abstaining in certain circumstances, is if I want to reach an SDA who's hangups would not be able to get around the fact that I drank wine, then that could be a hindrance as well. Stan | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 690 Registered: 1-2003 |
Is there a transcript for the above show? I can't listen at work but would like to read it. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 967 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pheeki, There is no transcript, but you can listen online in the show archived section, and the discussion came up in the second hour of the show. The whole show was terrific, if you did have time to listen. Koukl has become one of the more respected apologists, and that is a great theological blog as well. Stan | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 301 Registered: 2-2001 |
In this months issue of Christianity Today it speaks of 80 "evangelicals" being ran out of a village in Mexico by threat of death if they did not denounce their faith. Further into the article it explains that the converts were no longer frequenting the taverns and it threatened to bankrupt the town if large numbers of villagers were converted. These "evangelicals" were SDAs and Baptists. This is the drum I have been beating for the past five years. When you add requirements to the gospel you can loose your whole ability to even speak of Jesus. I hope those Adventist feel it was worth not being able to share Jesus so they could cling to their health message. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2859 Registered: 12-2003 |
You know what really bothers me about that report? Christianity Today ran it. Of course, it's not surprising, given the senior editor was Adventist and is still sympathetic. Christianity Today began as a truly evangelical magazine a few decades ago, and it's now becoming less and less "evangelical" in the classic sense. BTW, I received the following link from a friend of mine today. It's a fascinating look at the GC's plans to try to grow the NAD church by 2010: http://www.nadadventist.org/article/articleview/685/1/8/ Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1966 Registered: 3-2004  |
And Jesus is not mentioned anywhere in that plan!! That is a shame as He is the only one we need. Diana |
