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Jwd
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Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Intriguing discussion all ! It's good to fire one's blood occasionally.

Colleen,
Your discoveries concerning the absolute Sovereignty of God is absolutely granite Truth.
That which appears to us as "past," "present," and "future," is all "present" to God's mind. It is an eternal "now." Ps. 90:4 He is "the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity" Isa 57:15.
Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from NY to Frisco, we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it; so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance.

Baptist theologian Dr. A.H. Strong wrote, "..God forsaw the future events of the universe as certain, because He had decreed to create; but this determination to create involved also a determination of all the actual results of that creation; or, in other words, God decreed those results."

Foreknowledge must not be confused with forordination. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but is not itself foreordination. The actions of free agents do not take place because they are forseen, but they are forseen because they are certain to take place. Hence Strong says, "Logically, though not chronologically, decree comes before foreknowledge. When I say, 'I know what I will do,' it is evident that I have determined already, and that my knowledge does not precede determination, but follows it and is based upon it."
Since God's foreknowledge is complete, He knows the destiny of every person, not merely before the person has made his choice in this life, but from eternity. And since He knows their destiny before they are created, and then proceeds to create, it is plain that the saved and the lost alike fulfill His plan for them; for if He did not plan that any particular ones should be lost, He could at least refrain from creating them.
It seems to me that the Christian doctrine of the Foreknowledge of God proves also His Predestination. Since these events are foreknown, they are fixed and settled things; and nothing can have fixed and settled them except the good pleasure of Sovereign God, - the great first cause, - freely and unchangeably foreordaining whatever comes to pass. The difficulty lies in the acts of free agents being certain; yet certainty is required for foreknowlege as well as for foreordination.

I concur with you Dennis and Stan and add some of my findings as I continue to study this fascinating subject:

Aren't there really only three systems which claim to set forth a way of salvation through Christ? Universalism - which makes a strong appeal to our feelings as human beings, but is un-Scriptural, and has never been held by any organized Christian church. Arminianism - which traces back to Pelagianism. A.A. Hodge refers to it as a "manifold elastic system of compromise." It's leading idea is that divine grace AND human will jointly accomplish the work of conversion and sanctification, and that man has the sovereign right of accepting or rejecting. Man merely needs divine grace to assist his personal efforts. This view exalts man's freedom at the expense of God's sovereignty. And third is Calvanism, which holds that as a result of the fall into sin all men in themselves are guilty, corrupted, hopelessly lost; that from this fallen mass God sovereignly elects some to salvation through Christ, while passing by others; that Christ is sent to redeem His people by a purely substitutionary atonement; that the Holy Spirit efficaciously applies this redemption to the elect; and that all of the elect are infallibly brought to salvation. So far the weight of evidence to my mind is that this view alone is consistent with Scripture and with what we see in the world about us. "It is not always the most agreeable medicine which is the most healing." [Ain't that right, Doc? :c) ]
A brief exam of Church history, or of the historic creeds of Protestantism, readily shows that the doctrines which today are known as Calvinism were the ones which brought about the Reformation and preserved its benefits. Dr. Cunningham wrote, "next to Paul, John Calvin has done most for the world." And Dr. Smith also said, "Surely it should stop the mouths of the detractors of Calvinism to remember that from men of that creed we inherit, as the fruits of their blood and toil, their prayers and teachings, our civil liberty, our Protestant faith, our Christian homes. The thoughtful reader, noting that these blessings lie at the root of all that is best and greatest in the modern world, may be startled at the implied claim that our present Christian civilization is but the fruitage of Calvinism."
"Whatever the cause," says Foude, "the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation, and but for them the Reformation would have been lost." James Antohony Froude has been recognized as one of England's most able historians and men of letters and was professor of History at Oxford.
Wherever Calvinism has gone marvelous moral transformations of men and countries have followed in it's wake.
A very practical test for any system of religious doctrine is: Has it, in comparison with other systems, proved itself a success in the evangelization of the world?"
The first great Christian revival is recorded in Acts 2:23; 4:27,28 where Peter says these various peoples "were gathered together, do do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel forordained to come to pass." That is Calvinism rigid enough.
The next great revival in the Church came under the influence of Augustine. And the Reformation admittedly was the greatest revival of true religion since New Testament times, and it occured under the soundly predestinarian preaching of Luther, Sqingly, and Calvin.

I discovered this quote by Spurgeon which I would like to add to Dennis and Chrises comments:
Spurgeon is quoted as saying, "I am never ashamed to avow myself a Calvinist. I do not hesitate to take the name of Baptist; but if I am asked what is my creed, I reply, 'It is Jesus Christ.'" Beautiful, eh?

Calvinism touches all the music of life because it seeks the Creator first and above all and finds Him everywhere. Calvinism shows us God and traces His footsteps - God, in all His greatness, majesty, wisdom, holiness, justice, love. Calvinism shows us God high and lifted up; and our souls cry out again, "What is man that THOU.....art mindful of him?"

Deut. 29:29 is a text for myself, I must sit upon every moment I study anything regarding Predestination or the other more intricate details of foreknowlege and foreordination and election. The plan of our redemption was and is hidden in the eternal counsels of God Himself. Why should all the questions our finite minds want so desperately to find answers to astonish us? Does not nature teem with wonders? Why should not revelation? Can any of us explain the why's and how's of the Trinity, Creation, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the indwelling Presence of God and Christ in the Holy Spirit? Yet we believe them all to be the truth of God. Science brings to light many astonishing truths which an uneducated man finds it hard, if not impossible, to believe; and why should it not be so with the truths of Revelation and the spiritually uneducated. If the Gospel does not startle and terrify and amaze a man when presented to him, someone has said, it is not the true Gospel.
The effect of Calvinism down through history, including the redemption of Scotland, is mind-boggling and a shocking discover for me.
Prof. John Fiske said, "It would be hard to over-rate the debt which mankind owes to John Calvin."
From Cromwells victories, the Huguenots, Calvinism in England and Holland up to the Pilgrim-fathers, the writing of the Declaration of Independence which historian Tucker, in his Life of Jefferson says that it's contents must have been largely patterned if not copied from the "Mecklenburg Declaration" proclaimed by the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians of North Carolina more than a year before the Declaration of Independence. So great was the influence of Calvinism in the founding of America, that Ranke, one of the profoundest scholars of modern times, said, "John Calvin was the virtual founder of America." Bancroft, who was far from being a Calvinist in his own personal convictions, still called Calvin "the founder of America," and adds: "He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty."
Politically, Calvinism has been the chief source of modern republican government.

It appears from my brief study that once you put the truth of the sovereignty of God into a man's mind and heart, and you put iron in his blood.

There is something within these teachings, call if Calvinism if you will, that has brought me and my wife onto a stage of a higher level in our spiritual growth and experience than any other single Gospel teaching I have ever been exposed to. My exposure simply to this grand subject of the sovereignty of God, alone, has dramatically affected my worship and the thoughts of God that occupy my mind throughout the day and night season. While I will never satisfy the hair-splitting questions which arise whenever Predestination in any of it's shades is discussed or studied, I am relaxing more an more in simply allowing God to be GOD, without my understanding why He did and why He does certain things. He could have annihilated all humanity and His decision and action would have been absolutely perfect justice. But NOW I rejoice that "he chose (me) in HIM before the creation of the world to holy and blameless in His sight...and in His love He predestined (me) to be adopted as his (son) through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and (His) (sovereign) will. (Eph 1:4,5)
That humbles me like nothing else! I'll never understand it in this life, and I'll never have all my questions answered; but it's enough for me to trust Him and to be eternally grateful that because He predestined me, called me, justified me, He will glorify me someday (Rom 8:30).
I thank God for John Calvin and all the other great men and women of God whose exposure to his explaination of predestination, etc. has given greater beauty and glory to the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Sorry for the length. Just so much "good stuff" one wants to share it all.

Soli Deo Gloria
Jess
Lydell
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Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know....I really wonder about some of the statements I have seen here.

Let me tell you the perspective I am coming from....I am one who laid on a delivery table holding a dead child in my arms. An innocent child. One who never had opportunity to hear about Christ, never had the chance to know the difference between good and evil, one who had never even taken a breath.

If you think you are serving a God who had already doomed that child to hell, then my friend, you have a most twisted view of God. And your theology needs a long hard look.
Riverfonz
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Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I will also say thanks for pointing out the message of the book of Obadiah, as I read it for the first time in a long time this AM while here at our timeshare on vacation. I am sure glad I have clubhouse access to a computer as I would have been sorry to miss this very exciting discussion. Malachi 1:1-5 also seems to be very specific about the fate of Esau and Edom, and according to the Reformation study Bible the context of the word hate seems to dictate its meaning, not just the concept of loving less like the Hebrew word for hate can mean in other places, but the concept of despising is there. But again, I would like to stress that the discussion of these issues should never divide us as Christians.

Chris, Have you carefully read the Spurgeon link I referenced above, where Spurgeon clarifies what he meant by his statement regarding the nickname of Calvinism. After reading the whole article, it comes across as a soul stirring and inspiring message of the gospel of grace.

With regard to Limited Atonement or a better term "definite atonement" I wonder if anyone has ever considered some evidence from the Old Testament in Leviticus 16? As a hospital based internist, one of my duties is to supervise medical residents in the care of patients. One of the residents who happened to be a Christian had a husband who gave me a book by H.L.Heijkoop called "The Glories of Christ" which is a great book detailing the anti-typical aspects of all the sacrifices and offerings in Leviticus, and believe it or not it was a fascinating read, and of course that medical resident got her "extra credit" recommendation and grade from me. Anyway there was a chapter on Leviticus 16, the anti-typical day of atonement with the two goats. And of course in SDA history we are all familiar with the terrible scapegoat doctrine where Satan is said to have born the sins of the saints into the wilderness and becoming perilously close to a co-redeemer. However, it was pointed out in this book, as well as confirmed in the Reformation study Bible in the notes on Lev. 16, that the two goats actually represented one total picture of a type of Christ's sacrifice. The one goat that was slain and blood sprinkled in the Holiest represented the actual sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. That is one aspect of redemption. But the other aspect is when a person is brought to faith in Jesus Christ and is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, then there is a response necessary after Regenration takes place, and that is confession of sin. So back to Lev. 16, on the scapegoat Aaron put both hands on the head of the goat and confessed the sins of Israel, and then the scapegoat was led away to the wilderness. Most of the Christian church has held that both of these goats are but two aspects of the same sacrifice and typifies Christ, and not Satan like in SDA theology which seems to say that Satan had something to do with bearing the punishment for the sins of the saints. Instead, in Reformed theology, this is a great picture of the fact that Christ died only for the sins of the elect, as it is the sins of the elect that are confessed on the head of the goat and led away. I think this analogy makes pretty good sense and is a great contrast to SDA theology. In fact, the more I study Reformed theology, the more I see it as a direct opposite to the theology of Adventism and extreme Arminianism or semi-Pelagianism or even outright Pelagianism that is seen in some evangelical circles today.

InSearchOf, Thank you for your post above. It is exciting to hear more of your story and exit out of SDA, and see your discovery process as you have studied the doctrines of grace. You are absolutely right though, as what I like about Michael Horton is he effectively avoids the extreme right of hyper-Calvinism. In fact in his book "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" he talks about the foolishness of Christians getting into "dogfights" over the topic of grace. How can Christians become so proud of their being chosen by grace, that they despise their fellow Christians who don't quite see it that way. But I love what Horton says about what happens when the doctrine of Predestination is announced as a topic of discusson today in evangelical circles. He says there is no quicker way to empty a room faster than to announce that you are going to discuss the topic of predestination. Everyone sort of just slinks away. Then Horton compares this to what happens when Jesus gave His famous sermon in John 6 on predestination, as there were 5000 people when he started, and there was only the 12 left when he finished.

Rejoicing in God's wondrous grace,

Stan
Riverfonz
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Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, Did you see one of my posts back aways where I stated that one of the most responsible spokesmen of Reformed theology Dr Michael Horton, professor of theology at Westminster seminary, believes it is Biblical to believe that that dead child you referred to was elect before the foundation of the world? The tone of your statement seems to ignore what I tried to say. In contrast to Esau who was "hated", remember he grew up to the age of accountability, whereas, children who don't reach an age of accountability, God mercifully elected to save before time began. God's heaven is big enough for all those precious souls.

Jess, Another great and inspiring post. You truly have God-given writing ability that springs from a heart who knows this great awesome God we serve.

Stan
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, I do not believe your baby was doomed to hell. Just as Jesus has met you in your loss (which lasts your lifetime), He has also taken responsibility for your baby. Just as He is faithful to complete the work he has begun in you, He is also faithful to complete the work He began in your infant as He knit your baby together before its birth.

He is faithful.

Colleen
Lydell
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Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem I see with reformed theology is that it seems to form it's understanding of God as: God is sovereign. That this is the only one great overarching thing that defines God's character. Period.

I don't think it is so much a proof-texting problem, as was mentioned above, as this problem of not paying equal attention to the rest of who God is. He is not only Sovereign King who sits on a throne and controls and sees all. He is not only God who is master. Rather he is also God who is loving Father, God who is husband to his church, God who is shepherd, God who is sufficient for every need, our banner, our healer, and all the rest. He is a God of perfect justice as well as a God of perfect love.

Reformed theology, to me, just seems to present a view of God as high and lifted up, and very distant.

To understand who God is, you can't focus on only one aspect of God's character to the exclusion of the rest. Otherwise you are certain to end up with a very off balanced understanding of God and the very scriptural passages you are trying to understand.

Sorry for being abrupt before. The issue of what happens to infants and those who are unable to understand truth, really sets me off. It has done so ever since a dear lady came to us in tears asking what would happen when her profoundly retarded child died. She had been informed by several "loving" folk that, because of his condition, he was most certainly doomed to hell. That still makes my blood boil!

And the times when I get on her I have to read very quickly, so I can overlook things.
Dd
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Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,
I totally agree with your understand of God. He is all those things you mentioned - and more... I believe all that God is is all inclusive in His sovereignty.

I was always raised with the understanding that the God of the Old Testament was a different GOd of the New. In the Old He was a firm, distant, merciless God. In the New He is the kind, loving, caring Shepherd. After a study of Isreal and the minor prophets, it is very clear to me that as a sovereign God, He is EVERYTHING. It is my little limited mind that cannot comprehend One Being as all those seemingly opposed traits.

I have always thought of all the different things I would ask God when He returns..."Why did You allow mother's to suffer the seperation of her child through death?" Why? Why?

In my studies of God's Word, one why that I have answered for myself is that God's ways are not my ways. God's judgments, His long-suffering, His thoughts, His motives are always right and just and good.

I love the promise in 1 John 3:2,3 - "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as His is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

The day is coming when these questions will be answered but now I wonder if I will even think to ask them! I won't even need my faith! I will be like Him becuase I will see Him just as He is! It is through my faith that I know He is my Master, Loving Father, Healer, Redeemer, Judge...but the day is coming when all my faith is gone and I will KNOW and see His sovereignty in all His glory!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am amazed at your faith despite your sorrow. It is a testament of your love for your Savior.

Denise
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, thank you for your wonderful post. I completely agree with you.

I also agree that you, Lydell, have inspiring faith; I've admired your trust and insight ever since you first posted here years ago! You are an inspiration.

I'm so thankful that God in His sovereign love has juxtaposed our lives here! I learn so much from my FAF family, and I am thankful for you all!

Colleen
Freeatlast
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Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is one thing that Ellen White had to say about the salvation of children:

"Parents stand in the place of God to their children, and they will have to render an account, whether they have been faithful to the little few committed to their care. Parents, some of you are rearing children to be cut down by the destroying angel, unless you speedily change your course, and be faithful to them. GOD CANNOT COVER INIQUITY, EVEN IN CHILDREN. HE CANNOT LOVE UNRULY CHILDREN WHO MANIFEST PASSION, AND HE CANNOT SAVE THEM IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE. Will you suffer your children to be lost through your neglect? Unfaithful parents, their blood will be upon you, and is not your salvation doubtful with the blood of your children upon you?--children who might have been saved had you filled your place, and done your duty as faithful parents should. {RH, March 28, 1893 par. 4} (EMPASIS MINE)

I'm going to go barf now.
Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Freeatlast,

Thank you for sharing this dreadful quotation from our former church mother. It is truly mind-boggling and amazing that we ever believed in this false prophet. This quotation alone is sufficient to debunk all their claims of being inspired by God.

Dennis Fischer
Pauls
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Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

given the sovereignty of God and the theology of election, someone asked in a prior post why do evangelism?

1. I do evangelism because God asked me to do it, not to "save" somebody else. If somebody happens to get saved, that is God's business, not mine. mine is to obey.

2. I do evangelism because it puts me into Jesus shoes--and gives me a more intimate knowledge of Him--the bond of any friendship is common experience--the tightest bond is formed under intense conflict--which outreach will provoke.

When I go out and do outreach, I am experiencing the world in a small way as Jesus did.

Many wise persons have observed that any time one person attempts to persuade another of their point of view, it is a violent act commited against that individuals personhood.....and i subscribe to this belief.

Maybe this is what is wrong with evangelism--going out to try to convince another person to believe as you do....especially the hard core approaches like: if you died tonight, would you go to heaven or hell?

maybe a truer, more accurate approach would simply be sharing a personal testimony of how God has called me out of my former life into the light of His grace and what that has meant to me--how my life has changed, then asking the person if they have ever felt the call of God in their lives and what they did about it and what the effects were. If they have felt it, but never responded, invite them to respond now and join the body of the elect to celebrate and cerebrate on His marvelous and unspeakable Grace until He re-appears!

It all really might be that simple!

p.s. i really appreciate this great thread. The sovereignty of God is in my experience the second most powerful experience/truth i've known---the first being Saving Grace. (that may seem redundant--but I am referring here to God's gift of spiritual eyesight to become aware of my absolute spiritiual poverty while simultaneously making me aware of His atoning sacrifice!)

I think you could build a whole church on Saving Grace and God's sovereignty and it would be just fine.
Riverfonz
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Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,
Just to expand a bit on the issue you raised about God's grace manifested to children who die before the age of moral accountability, and the case of the retarded that you and Melissa brought up. It is interesting that there is a difference of opinion in Calvinist circles on this question. Dr. Michael Horton is a classical Calvinist who holds to the position as I do that none of the above categories will suffer in hell. Romans 1 is very clear that the wrath of God is poured out on people who suppress the truth about God, and who consciously ignore the general revelation about God that is obvious in nature. They are said to have no excuse. It seems logical then that God will only send people to hell who are capable of rejecting the truth. Classical Calvinism has always expressed the paradox of God's sovereignty and personal responsibility for our actions. Also Jesus was very fond of children in the gospels saying things like "suffer the little children to come unto me" etc. So because God is infinite in mercy, I believe He has made provision for saving aborted babies as well as those who die young and retarded. It is still necessary for them to be regenerated and become born again, but we see ample evidence of infants such as John the Baptist sovereignly being saved in the womb. Although I have no definite Biblical proof of these statements, it seems that you can infer these truths by an understanding of the character of God. As I said previously, I believe God's heaven will be big enough to accommodate all these children.

I would also like to ask you about a statemnt you made in your last post about your view of Reformed theology "presents a view of God that is highly lifted up and very distant". I would ask how you formulated this view? Have you read any particular Reformed authors? Have you ever read J.I. Packer's book "Knowing God"? This is a Christian classic, and I would challenge anyone who reads this book as coming away with a cold distant view of God. One more that many different folks have mentioned is "Desiring God" by John Piper. This is a great book. Then what about Spurgeon and the morning and evening devotionals of his? There is no distant view of God in any of these books. Also, since you attend a Vineyard fellowship, have you ever read Wayne Grudem who is famous for his book on systematic theology? He is fully Reformed in his theology and attends a Vineyard and has even defended John Wimber from attack. Now, I think you would have to agree that Grudem, since he is charismatic and believes in the gifts as you do would be quite balanced. I wonder if a lot of folks who may be somewhat uncomfortable with this discussion on this thread may not be that way if exposed to the great reading material mentioned above. One more book that is a great intro to Reformed theology, and reads in an entertaining way, and the experience of this author parallels in many ways some of our experiences in Adventism, is the book by the previously mentioned Michael Horton "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace".

Pauls,
Thanks for your thoughts. And in fact, churches like conservative Presbyterian churches and similar have built their churches on grace and God's sovereignty.

Stan
Jwd
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Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,

The following passage from the Westminster Confession of Faith, in Chapter II, on the subject of God, and of the Holy Trinity, may help to shed more light upon the discussion of God's sovereignty suggesting that he is distant and removed from His adopted children.

" 1. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensivble, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

"II. god hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whome are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

"III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

However we may think of Him, our thoughts do not define Him, our minds cannot comprehend Him; but we dance with joy as we sing "The Lord our Righteousness." (Isa 23:6).

Sola Deo Gloria

Jess
Cy
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Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do we FAFers have a "reading room" - a list of Christian classics, plus perhaps a quick review of each? It sounds like Grudem's systematic theology should be on our list, now plus Packer's "Knowing God" and Piper's "Desiring God"...

Cy
Colleentinker
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Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, I recommend all three! I also recommend "Classic Christianity" by Bob George. It was a pivotal book for me. It's the best book I've read on learning what it means to have my identity in Christ and living in that identity instead of in my compulsions and perfectionism. Bob George has an amazing grasp of the new covenant---and he's never been Adventist! (Amazing, huh?!)

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 2:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cy, you brought up an excellent idea. Michael Horton's "Putting Amazing back into Grace" also rates top billing. Also R.C. Sproul's "Chosen by God" and "Knowing Scripture" are excellent. Luther's commentary on Galatians is so basic for former SDAs who were brought up in a legalistic mindset. There are so many of the Christian classics that should be included plus the books important to SDA issues such as Canright, Brinsmead, Ford, Rea, Ratzlaff, Greg Taylor etc etc...

Stan
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Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 5:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For a much lighter read, I would suggest Yancey's What's so Amazing About Grace. It is hard for someone transitioning from SDAism to read too much about grace. Of the books I have read by Sproul, I would have to place Faith Alone at the top of the list. The 2 chapters devoted to the discussion of the Evangelical doctrine of imputed righteousness and the Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness couldn't make the issues more clear. Dennis had recommended a really good book to my wife and I on annilihation vs eternal punishment that should probably be on this list, given how much transitioning SDAs struggle with this topic, Two Views of Hell by Fudge and Peterson. The style, where each view is presented and then responded to by the other person, provides a very accessible means of understanding the pros and cons of each position. It may not convince you of the doctrine of eternal punishment, but it will certainly open your eyes to the weaknesses in the SDA position and help you understand how others can conclude the doctrine of eternal punishment.
Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 6:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jess, the reference is Jeremiah 23:6:

6 ìIn His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
ëThe LORD our righteousness.í

In Christ,

Larry
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 503
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of books, I recently ordered Dr. Martin Brecht's book entitled, "Martin Luther: His Road to Reformation." I am looking forward to reading this biography by a Lutheran scholar. This biography is considered to be nearly impeccable.

Also, I recently visited the local Catholic bookstore to purchase their New American Bible. I wanted to buy a small brochure about examining the conscience before confession, but they didn't have one. Oh well, their list of mortal sins is rather exhausting--akin to Ellen White's rules for Sabbath-keeping and diet. Obviously, Adventists don't consider Jesus our example when it comes to diet.

Dennis Fischer
Derrell
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Username: Derrell

Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Obviously, Adventists don't consider Jesus our example when it comes to diet."

That and in many other areas. We often hear anecdotes from the life of our distinguished prophet cited to make a point or prove an argument in life areas such as food, drink, dress, etc. In relation to that, how often is the life of Jesus cited for any reason at all?

Back on topic, those statements regarding children are an absolute abomination. The only demographic group that was held up, without exception, by Jesus, as a pure example of the ideal human was children. There were no modifiers attached to those statements, they were comprehensive. He also made a very powerful, blanket statement of condemnation against anyone who might dare to harm a child. Bearing in mind that this was spoken by God himself, I believe that anyone who presumes to represent God as sending any child to hell for any reason, is carving out a very special, very nasty section of the Hot Place for themselves. I have no doubt that children are, without exception, the closest part of humanity to God, and any attack on a child, or children in general, is nothing less than a personal attack on God himself.

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