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Derrell
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Post Number: 108
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the foundational doctrines of the Church is that relating to eternal punishment. Although I differ with various of the Church's teachings, I adhere firmly to this one. If it can be proven Biblically, beyond doubt, that God will torment billions of souls in hell for eternity, agnosticism will start looking pretty good.

Are there other groups or denominations that teach something similar to the Adventist belief on this subject?
Helovesme2
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Post Number: 357
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell,

Have you tried looking at what the Bible says about this in context for yourself? I personally don't have all sorted out what exactly happens after we die, but I do know that God is in the business of both teaching us from his word, and of guiding us to believers and churches where we can grow and serve.

Praying that you find the one you need (and who needs you!)
Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1073
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell, SDAs are not unique on this doctrine, but most liberal protestant churches have given up their belief in hell. They, along with the late Pope John Paul have redefined hell conveniently as suffering that we cause ourselves while on this earth. Robert Schuller redefined hell as a loss of self-esteem.

The issue is not whether we like a particular doctrine such as hell or predestination, but whether the Bible teaches it. I cannot refute Luke 16, and the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus.(Notice Jesus even used a proper name therefore casting doubt that this is just a parable) Jesus clearly stated that the Rich man was in torment. The question you have to ask is, would Jesus teach a false doctrine on purpose? In Matthew 25:46, Jesus teaches that the righteous will have eternal life, where the wicked will go to eternal punishment. If life is eternal, then why is not punishment eternal? It is possible that hell is not a literal burning in fire, as fire can also be a symbolic word for judgment. In other places eternal punishment is described as outer darkness such as in Jude.

The SDA teaching taught by EGW is that there will be a literal burning in the lake of fire with the amount of time of burning directly proportional to the type and amount of sin committed. This way Hitler, and the like will suffer much longer than mild sinners, with the devil last to be eradicated. However, it should be pointed out that a great number of SDA pastors especially in S. Calif., who are disciples of A. Graham Maxwell don't believe in any literal suffering at all. They say, everybody just dies, and that is all there is. I think the devil likes the doctrines of the Protestant liberals and of the late Pope. Would not the devil like to minimize, or take away the doctrine of hell? There is also a trend even in evangelicalism to minimize the teaching of the wrath of God. J. I. Packer, in his book "Knowing God" says that the Bible mentions the wrath of God much more than the love of God, but what gets preached today in many popular mega-churches? It's almost always th love of God, and almost never the wrath of God. In other words, the gospel is also supposed to include what we are being saved from, or else it is only one-half the gospel, and some have said that a half-gospel is no gospel at all. Romans 1 and 2 sets the proper foundation as to why we need the gospel, and that is to escape from the wrath of God that is certain to come. The good news, is that there is now "no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" Romans 8:1

Stan
Derrell
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Post Number: 109
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Could any human with half a heart consider heaven as anything but hell living with the knowledge that the god they live with is keeping their loved ones alive in the other room for the purpose of torturing them into eternity?
Derrell
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Post Number: 110
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Verses used for immortality of soul and eternal torment:
(1) Gen. 1:26, 27; (2) Gen 35:18; (3) Gen 35:29; 37:35; 2 Sam 7:12; (4) Ecc. 12:7; (5) Matt. 16:26; (6) Matt 22:32, 33; Luke 20:34-38; (7) Matt 25:41; (8) Luke 16:19-31; (9) Luke 23:43; (10) Luke 23: 46; (11) 2 Cor 5:8;(12) Philippians 1:21, 23; (13) 1 Thess 4:14; (14) 1 Thess 5:23; (15) Heb 12:23; (16) 1 Peter 1:19; (17) 2 Peter 2:9; (18) Revelation 6: 9-11; (19) Revelation 20:10.

Verses used for mortality and annihilation:
(1) Gen 2:7; (2) Gen 2:9; (3) Gen 2:15-17; (4) Gen 3:1-4; (5) Gen 3:5-6; (6) Gen 3: 17-24; (7) Revelation 1:18; (8) Gen 4:6,7; (9) Romans 5:12; (10) Eccl. 12:7; (11) Job 33: 4; 34:14; (12) Eccl. 3:19-21; (13) Job 27: 3; (14) Psalms 146:3; (15) James 2:26; (16) Gen 12:5; 36:6; Lev 4:2; (17) Matt 16:26; Luke 9:25; (18) Eccl 9:5,6; (19) Eccl 9:10; (20) Ps. 6:5; (21) Ps. 115:17; (22) Job 14:21; (23) Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36; (24) Psalms 13:3; (25) 1 Cor 15: 21, 22; (26) Job 14: 12-15; (27) Job 19:26; (28) John 5: 28, 29; (29) 1 Cor 15:51-55; (30) 1 Cor 15:12-18; (31) 1 Thess 4:16-18; (32) 1 Cor 15: 26; (33) Rev 21:4; (34) Luke 20:36; (35) Acts 7:60; (36) Psalms 23:4; (37) 1 Cor 15:55; (38) Romans 8: 38, 39; (39) 2 Tim 4: 6-8.
Verses viewed as clinching this view are: John 14:1-3; 1 Cor 15:18; Hebrews 11:40; Titus 2:13; and 1 Thess 4:13, 17.
Helovesme2
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) I see the verses 'on both sides' and yet the Truth is 'of a piece'. God, and Reality, are both so much bigger than us that we can only see partially what is happening, and can only understand in part what is going to happen. I think that is why what the Bible describes seems contradictory at times.

What I do know is that God does not think as man, that He does love us and does not want any to perish, that He is both Just and Merciful, and that he has the Best for all of us in mind.
Heretic
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of all the core Adventist doctrines, this has been the toughest for me personally to deal with. It was always comforting to know that since I wasn't going to be able to meet God's or Ellen's standard of perfection, that I could never stand without spot or wrinkle on my own, final death by incineration would come quickly and mercifully. And how could a God who is fair and loving send his beloved creations to an eternity of agony and torment, anyway? But as I mentioned on another thread, maybe the real question isn't about fairness as much as it's about God's perfect justice.

The only acceptable sacrifice/propitiation for our sin was satisfied in the person of Jesus Christ. For those trusting in Him and His finished atonement made for us, like Stan said stand blameless before God, there is "no condemnation" of them for they have been declared righteous. How then, are those who stand outside of this imputed righteousness reconciled to God? Does their annhilation satisfy the just wrath of a holy God? So I asked myself that if this were the case, wouldn't the wicked, in effect, be atoning for themselves? These were the questions that really got me thinking about this and helped me see the greater likelihood of eternal punishment.

It was mentioned on the other thread that suffering eternal torment doesn't satisfy His wrath, either, and I totally agree with this. But I think that's the reason why hell is indeed eternal. How can that which is finite and sinful ever satisfy or properly propitiate that which is infinite and holy? That is why Christ - who was both perfect in His humanity and holy in His divine nature - is the only one who could atone for us. Once Christ comes, there will be no more second chances...no purgatory (sorry about that RCC).

This is just how I have come to see it, but really, thank goodness that this isn't a salvational doctrine. There are many things that I know I could never fully comprehend this side of heaven. I think Helovesme2 stated it beautifully in the last sentence of the previous post. "What I do know is that God does not think as man, that He does love us and does not want any to perish, that He is both Just and Merciful, and that he has the Best for all of us in mind." Amen!

Heretic

(Message edited by Heretic on December 10, 2005)
Catalyst
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Post Number: 82
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell, I agree with you - knowing that God is specifically and miraculously keeping people alive simply so that they can suffer and that the devil has nothing to do with it would make me an agnostic as well.

There are those that will try to convince you otherwise.

If one asks his father for a fish - does his father give him a stone? How much more your heavenly Father... so I ask you - would YOU make YOUR son or daughter suffer forever? I think not - How much more YOUR heavnely Father...

'nuff said...
Derrell
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Post Number: 113
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Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

True, God doesn't think like a human, but I cannot love, worship, or praise a mind that requires an infinity of torture to satisfy its wrath. No, I would have to abhore such a character. That is not just inhuman, it is monstrous.

I need to go read some Jewish books I have. To my recollection they assert that the Hebrew religion did not even address the possibility of life after death for several centuries. They also indicate that hell was invented by the Greeks. I shall return with some quotes.
Derrell
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Post Number: 114
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is the concept of an afterlife a Jewish belief?
Certainly. However, Judaism's idea of the afterlife is very different then that of other Western traditions. For one, Judaism does not believe that Hell is a punishment, rather a process of refinement for the soul to rinse free of its collected "dirt" so that it can enter a state of paradise.
Sarah Levi
Derrell
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Post Number: 115
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is the World to Come? Indescribable. Beyond time. Beyond place. Beyond dimension. Dispose of Heaven and Hell and planets and science fiction--they are false. The World to Come is not physical or dimensional at all. Images of angels, clouds, and 70 virgins for every martyr are complete nonsense--the World to Come is just totally beyond our imagination. And neither is it borrowed from another religion. The prophets refrained from descriptions because words couldn't possibly paint the full picture. But it's a place, if it can be called that at all, a form of existence, where you're washed in a "cosmic washing machine" before you may absorb good incomparably beyond the greatest pleasures of physical existence. The washing erases all traces of physical existence and restores you to your pristine, pre-birth state of spiritual existence. Once restored, you reconnect with G-d at the level of spirituality attained during physical existence. The washing is your "punishment," and the reconnecting is your "reward." Both are good--no "Hell" here! However great the World to Come may be, it should not be one's goal. Maimonides describes this as serving G-d out of fear of consequences or anticipation of benefits, thus ultimately, self-concern. Rather, the great sage elaborates, one's relationship with G-d should be built on love--and love is giving, not getting, selflessness, not selfishness.

Rabbi Mendy Hecht
Susan_2
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am with the understanding that hell is the cognative awareness of eternal seperation from God. That is true misery.
Derrell
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Post Number: 116
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess there are many possibilities.
Dd
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell,
Susan's thought reminds me of a friend who once gave me a different thought regarding hell...her son suffered from a rare viral infection that suddenly paralyzed him - he lost bladder/bowel control and eventually the ability to breath on his own. Later when he had recovered she said she had never felt more alone, lost, defeated...and that if it was any indication of what hell would be like she would never want to experience it.

It made me wonder about the eternal fire that we have all heard. Is it really fire? I can't tell you...but what I do believe is that to not choose is to choose. To turn our backs to the eternal peace, fulfillment, joy that is promised seems to indicate a choice to remove God's presence from our lives. Hell for me is a hopelessness, a discontentment, a longing that will never be anything else.

Denise
Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1076
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell, who would you rather put your faith in, Jewish Rabbis or the greatest Teacher who ever lived, Jesus? Also, it just isn't true about all Jewish authorities and their belief in the afterlife as you quoted these above. Usually the Jews who don't believe in the afterlife are the liberal Jews from Reformed Judaism. There is a famous orthodox or conservative Jew named Dennis Prager who hosts a nationally syndicated radio talk show, and is a widely respected expert on Judaism. He clearly states that there would be no justice served for people like Hitler if there was no conscious punishment in the afterlife. He is not a Christian! Any sense of God's justice says that heinous criminals must be punished for the horror and terror they caused.

One of the problems in our postmodern world is the complete loss of any sense of how offensive sin is to a Just and Holy God. God would be perfectly just to send the entire human race to hell. God did just that with all the angels that rebelled in heaven, he didn't save any of them. But, thankfully, He has chosen to make a way of escape for us by sending His Son Jesus, born of a virgin, the Creator of the universe humbled himself to be born in a manger, then live a perfect life, then suffer the most horrible death imaginable suffered in our place, taking the penalty on Himself. He rose miraculously from the grave for our justification. All those who place their faith in Him and trust in Him alone for salvation will escape the wrath to come.

Stan
Dennis
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Obviously, the fires of hell are not consuming fires like we know in this world. Some speculate that there will be a wall of fire to keep the ungodly in quarantine--creating an effective barrier with no crossover from one dimension to another. SDA apologists not only quote passages out of context, but conveniently ignore the biblical view of death to avoid letting their members know what the Bible actually teaches about death (i.e., the SDA "Clear Word Bible"). For example, I Thess. 4:14 is never quoted by Adventist ministers in funeral sermons, etc. It is as though this passage does not even exist. Indeed, we can trust the words of Jesus Himself in Matt. 25:46: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (NASB). No amount of linguistic gymnastics can get around the fact that Jesus uses the same adjective, eternal, to describe the fates of the ungodly and the godly. As different as those fates are, they have this in common: they will be experienced forever. Jesus talked four times more about hell than he did about heaven.

Without any exceptions, the list of proof-texts that Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses claim support their view in reality support the biblical, traditional view instead. With utilizing accepted principles of hermeneutics, the big picture clearly emerges. Importantly, there are no two sides or views to this topic in Scripture (only one is biblical). God has given us a library of literature which we call "the Bible," and we must avoid misinterpreting it or reading into it our own theological biases (eisegesis). Hermeneutics (utilizing the clarity of Scripture, progressive revelation, importance of original languages, grammatical interpretation, the principle of context, figures of speech, etc.) is the attempt to curb or bridle invalid ways of interpreting the Scriptures and to set forth those positive literary principles which should govern everyone's interpretation of the Bible.

Also, SDA historians intentionally misinterpret church history in an attempt to validate their worldview. For example, the late SDA apologist, Dr. Leroy E. Froom, had aligned nearly all the church fathers as conditionalists when actually they were traditionalists. Similarly, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi casts a blind eye to historical facts that don't support his presuppositions. I heartily recommend Dr. Robert Morey's book entitled, "Death and the Afterlife." In this 315-page book, Dr. Morey goes face to face with the late SDA apologist, Dr. L. E. Froom. I am firmly convinced that the SDA view of death is their most harmful deception. Like with many other former Adventists, this aberrant doctrine was the last one that I surrendered to Jesus. Thereafter, the whole Bible became a new book to me. It affects how they view the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of salvation (soteriology). If we don't get Genesis right, with God creating us as dualistic beings (body and spirit), the new birth experience becomes merely an intellectual assent to doctrinal statements and behavioral standards. Scripture tells us that spiritual things can only be spiritually discerned as our spirit communicates with His Spirit. There are no two ways to be born again.

Finally, common sense dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler's Holocaust will never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress and is later quickly extinguished or obliterated. Common sense also dictates that without a hell there is no need of a Savior. Little needs to said about the absurdity of suggesting that the Creator should suffer more than the cumulative sufferings of all of mankind, if there were no hell to save us from. Without hell, there is no need for salvation. Without salvation, there is no need for a sacrifice. And without a sacrifice, there is no need for a Savior. As much as we may wish to think that all will be saved, common sense precludes the possiblity.

Furthermore, common sense leads to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all--as Norman Geisler aptly puts it, "to affirm that nothing can better than something is a gigantic category mistake." It also is crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell is equal.

"God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns his grace will suffer exactly what he deserves (Luke 12:47-48; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11-15; Proverbs 24:12)...Humans are fashioned in the very image of God; therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to his nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. And that is precisely what hell is." (Hank Hanegraaf; The Bible Answer Book, p. 218)

Dennis J. Fischer

Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Dennis' recommendation on Dr. Robert Morey's book "Death and the Afterlife". You can order this book online at Morey's website www.faithdefenders.com or call 1-800-41-truth and order directly. Morey has been consistent in calling SDA a cult, and it is over this issue on the nature of man that he bases his opinion partially, in addition to the false authority in EGW.

Stan


Colleentinker
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Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I completely agree with you about the SDA doctrine of soul sleep and "hell" being the most dangerous and sinsiter of the SDA doctrines for the sequence of reasons you stated so clearly.

One of the fallacies of the arguments against eternal hell is that if it is true, God is "keeping people alive" for the purpose of torturing and punishing them. On the contrary, the Bible is clear that God is not willing that anyone should perish.

Jesus completely took care of sin--those who end up in hell are not going to be there because God is harsh or unforgiving. They will be there because they did not say YES to the Sin Bearer. The avenue for eternal life is available to all humanity.

The bottom line issue is surrender--again. God asks us to surrender our feelings of deserving, our ideas and rational "logic" about what is or is not reasonable. Instead, He asks us to accept the truth about Jesus and the reality of our lost condition and to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ. We have to trust Him even for the things that don't make sense.

And has been stated above, when we surrender our understanding to Him, the Bible becomes a whole new book.

Hell is not an out-working of God's desire to punish. It was prepared for the devil and his angels; those who refuse to surrender to Jesus will also be sent there. It is the natural consequence of refusing eternal life.

One last thing--I had to finally realize that my personal definition of "death" might not have been biblical. It appears that "death" does not equal unconsiounessóit equals being unable to relate to the Source of Life.

Colleen
Jackob
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Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 4:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I confess that I pray daily for God to teach me the truth, and I wait every day for Robert Morey's book, which I have purchased with the help of a friend. Until then I still struggle with this subject in this way:

Matt. 25:46: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (NASB)

Eternal punishment, meaning eternal death, if through death we understand that the person cease to exist, means a death which will no more be followed by resurrection. Not a death like we experience now, which will be interrupted by resurrection, but a death eternal. From the anihilationist perspective, this can be very well the meaning of the words of Jesus.

I don't want to argue for anihilationism, and I really want to understand, to know the truth. What is the element in the text which eliminate the posibility to interpret it in this way? Not arguments from others parts, but from this text itself.


Dennis
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Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,

Before the millennium, Rev. 19:20 tells us that both the beast and the false prophet "were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone." One thousand years later, the apostle John adds, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE ALSO, [present tense]and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10 NASB). Indeed, the objective Bible student has no choice but to understand that the wicked "shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." Please notice how consistent the Bible writers are on this topic. Jesus' words in Matthew 25:46 are completely in harmony with the words of John in Rev.20:10. These passages leave no room for doubt about the reality of hell.

Dennis Fischer

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