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Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,
I was wondering how many of you in your journey out of Adventism struggled with doubting all of it (the whole Christianity thing)?

As I've been struggling with trying to find where my beliefs lie, and recovering from having all of my "pillars of truth" that have defined who I am crumble, I'm starting to question the foundation -- God Himself. What if none of it is true? What if it's all just one big theory like Adventism?

Being an Adventist was easy (in my opinion). I had to follow a list of do's and dont's. But this whole relationship thing is so abstract. I don't get it. And if that's the focus of New Covenant teaching, I don't know if I can do it. I know it sounds so elementary, but how do you have a relationship with God? I've heard all of the platitudes and cliches (I've spouted them off before myself), but really, how do you know any of it is real?

I've realized that without the rules and guidelines, I don't have much. I'm frustrated, discouraged, and scared.

Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops, I was trying to start a new thing, but it ended up under the "burn in hell" part. How do you start a new thread/topic?
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 385
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For a period of about 7 years after I first identified a series of problems in SDA doctrines my reaction was to openly doubt Christianity as a whole. I still (10 years after this period of time) can't explain all of the emotions involved. But I was certain that if there was a God (which I was still at least moderately sure of) I clearly couldn't measure up and was sick of trying. And even over the last 10 years, I have experienced stretches of serious doubt and confusion. These have diminished, but not disappeared, over time.

Personally I struggle with the whole "relationship" aspect as well. For me it isn't so much about lists of do's and dont's, but instead burying myself in theological concepts and discussions. I envy people when they describe their experience of God as continual or regular intimacy. My own life is at best glimpses of that. If I knew of a formula or step by step guide, I'd share. Sometimes when I just reading Scripture (as opposed to specifically studying a section), God is vividly and personally real to me. But I don't know of any passages or formulas that make this happen. Traditional morning devotion and prayer has never left me experiencing God in any meaningful way. Instead I find myself praying at various times and lengths throughout the day. But it is probably through music that I am touched the most deeply and regularly. And many times find myself praying or praising God without even thinking about it. These are the times when I know in the depth of my being, that God is real and personal.

I realize that my response is short on answers, but hopefully it has avoided cliches. I will be watching with interest to see other responses.
Derrell
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Username: Derrell

Post Number: 111
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Snowboardingmom, (That is way cool! Hope you get the kid(s) into it too.)

Absolutely. I am there right now. I have thrown all of it up in the air, and am questioning every part right down to the existence of God, and the validity of the Bible. Far too much has turned out to be fraudulent (and much more highly questionable) to not question the veracity of the entire thing.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1074
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snowboardingmom (aka Grace-I just went back and read your first post), welcome again to FAF. After re-reading your first post it is clear that you have done a lot of research and study, and have done your homework with regard to the faulty foundations of Adventism. One of the common reactions that has happened to most of us as others have said, there is a time of doubting, and the temptation is to throw everything out, the baby with the bathwater, and unfortunately that is what happens to the majority of ex-SDAs, as well as others such as ex-Catholics, etc. who have said that because their particular version of counterfeit Christianity is wrong, then all Christianity must be wrong.
My suggestion is to continue studying the Bible with the Holy Spirit's guidance, since He has promised to guide us into all truth. (I realize even a statement like this can be interpreted as being a cliche). Also, along with the Bible, I would highly recommend the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This book will go a long way in solidifying your confidence in the reliability of the scriptures, and the irrefutable evidences for the basics of the Christian faith. This book reads like a novel, but the basics of the faith are presented so well. If we can have confidence in the reliability of scripture itself, then our confidence in the faith it proclaims will increase.
Adventism is in mass confusion and chaos with so many divisions because they have lost confidence in the reliability of scripture. They reason that if EGW was false, then the Bible is not reliable, and then a religion based on human reasoning is the result.

Stan
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 131
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I definately doubted God and eternity. I'm sure it happens to many Adventists. If you believe the false doctrine of adventism as I did, and you have been as sincerely following God as I was, there is no way you can continue to believe in God at some point in your journey.

That is the beauty of the New Covenant, the true gospel of Christ. It will take away your fear because you will no longer be following the false doctrine of Ellen White.

Right now, I'm not focusing on getting every little thing in the bible right. It will take me time. I've been believing the false doctrines of adventism for 18 years and I've only stopped believing in that for a couple of months now.

I'm just reading the bible, praying and attending services and bible studies at my church.

I will pray for you that you can find a true bible teaching church as I'm sure many here will also do.

I had nothing with rules. God didn't want anything from me. I was always trying to please Him on keeping the sabbath and with what I ate. He doesn't expect that of me. He only wants my heart!

When you accept Christ into your heart as it is written in the bible, you will have everything you need inside you. The Holy Spirit will guide you.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

You will be free. It is called "Free Grace" - Something the Adventist Church claims to preach, but former adventists and present adventists know better.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

I found a lot of helpful information at www.sdaoutreach.org

Blessings to you.

Lynne
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 591
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Snowboarding Mom and Derrell,

Being raised a good/strong Adventist I completely understand anger at God. I never understood that the church and God were two seperate "beings". What the church said was fact. I had strong faith in the church so I automatically had a strong faith in God. Since I never had reason to doubt the church, I never thought to doubt God.

The truth, of course, is that God is so much more. For years I would want nothing to do with Him but then would lapse back into wanting to know Him. The problem was that I always came back to Him by way of Adventism. It was not until I began attending a non-denominational Bible Study (BSF) that I began to see a whole new side of God that I had never seen. Even so the process took almost 7 years to finally understand God is sovereign, merciful, judge...and completely unexplainable except through the knowledge only gained by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

There are no quick fixes...it is difficult...trying...gut wretching...but it is only through the desire to know and search that you will find answers. I could give you all the standard cliches that you already know but the bottom line is God's Word which is overflowing with promises and real truth.

"The Lord IS near to all who call upon Him,
To all who call upon Him in truth.
He WILL fulfill the desire of those who [search for] Him;
He WILL also hear their cry and WILL save them." PSALM 145:18,19


I would love to be able to disspell all your fears, frustrations, anger...but only you can do that by the power of the Holy Spirit and God's Word. Paul says to "take the helmet of savation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" (Eph. 6:17). Know the words of Scripture and not what someone else tells you or what someone writes.

It's a growing day by day in Jesus for "I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you (ie...your questions!) will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6)

Denise
Blacksheep
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Username: Blacksheep

Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I, too am in a doubting phase. I doubt the whole Christianity thing, (yes, even Jesus), the Bible, God...the whole 9 yards. I want something solid to believe in. But it gets pretty confusing. I read virtually every word on this forum. I figure if anyone has it together, FAF does. I just thought everybody on this forum had no doubts about Christianity and the Bible so I thought I was too far out there to comment on this subject. Thanks, Snowboardingmom for bringing up such a touchy subject. I have been dealing with these agnostic/athiestic type thoughts for a long time. I've studied some into how the Bible came into being, and that in it's self is very disconcerting. Derrell, I too have thrown it all into the air so to speak, doubting everything I once held so dearly. I was strong in Christianity, Adventism and the Bible. I was a diligent Bible student. I had no doubts. But when SDAism started falling away (due to Bible study with a non SDA group) eventually it all started to crumble. It was not until this forum that I started seeking Bible/Christianity/Jesus again. But it isnt too comfortable. I want to be solid in what I believe.
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah

Post Number: 16
Registered: 1-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, me too. It was worse before... my faith is growing now. I had to dig into how the Bible was made. I can't find much in the order of "scientific" evidence... but I can find enough historical evidence to be able to believe that Jesus really existed and that the ressurection must have really happened.

However... all my study into history has placed me looking straight at the ancient churches and what Christians really believed. You know, those churches who can list their bishops all the way from the ones appointed by the Apostles themselves on down to this very day... it's starting to look to me like they still believe what has always been believed. That's scary, coming from an SDA background!

Jeremiah
Blacksheep
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Username: Blacksheep

Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do believe Jesus really existed. It's his divinity that I question.
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah

Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the people in Jesus' time questioned his divinity as well!

An excellent historical document for you might be Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew" written around 150 A.D... It's kind of long, but it really goes into "why should I believe Jesus is the Messiah?"... And it's like it was written with SDA's in mind!

In my case, I just eventually had to make a decision. I decided I believed in Jesus as who he claimed to be. That was when the trouble with my SDA beliefs really started... I studied the book of Galatians at that point and was shocked by what I discovered! You know how they say around here "the veil came off"... :-)

Jeremiah
Derrell
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Username: Derrell

Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ever since I was a small child being raised in an SDA missionary home overseas, I have been developing my scepticism. What really bothered me as a little kid was that we were being told what to believe with a "this is the only true interpretation of the Bible because we said it is. Those who question it will become our bitterest enemies and will go down to perdition."

Now that I am freeing myself from one prison, I have no intention of walking into another. It seems that everyone is saying the same thing. "This is the truth because this book says so. This is the truth because Dr. Somebody said so. This is the truth because my exhaustive research of the Bible leaves no other viable conclusion."

Well, there is much to Bible history and science that I find very questionable, and when it comes to God, the contradictions seem endless. He is the very essence of love, yet he creates billions of people who he knows will be lost, and keeps them alive for eternity for the purpose of torturing them. He orders tens of thousands of innocent women and children slaughtered, and then says that anyone who would harm a little child would be better off... you know the story.

In the end, I find it difficult to consider him any more real than Baal, Horus, Brahma, etc.

It just seems wrong that all through both testaments of the Bible, God was parting water, raising the dead, striking people dead, healing the sick, doing all sorts of miracles that are later written into that particular history, but now it doesn't happen. Kind of like all the other stories of all the other gods and their miracles.

I deeply apologize for any offense, and I assure you none is meant. I just have no one to communicate with on this subject, and since there are people here with similar questions, I am communicating.
Heretic
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Username: Heretic

Post Number: 226
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In addition to Stan's book recommendation, I'd also highly recommend I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek. I went to a day-long conference given by these two authors 3 Saturdays ago and it was EXCELLENT. I scribbled notes furiously until the first break when I looked at the book and realized everything I was writing was in it. It goes over absolute truth, the proofs for a Creator using scientific laws and methods, the proofs for the validity of the Bible using science and non-biblical historical documents, and the proofs for Christianity being the only true religion. After attending the conference, my faith in God and the Bible was greatly fortified. If you're interested in checking it out further, click here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1581345615/qid=1134282894/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-1427208-7076134?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

I hope this can help in some way.

Heretic
Blacksheep
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Username: Blacksheep

Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell, you say it just like I would. Christianity mirrors ancient pagan religion in many ways, including a baby born of a virgin, who died on a cross to save the people. I never would have known this except, now I read other stuff besides Adventist stuff, and I find out even more how much I was sheltered. I apologize also if I offend anyone. I just keep seeking what is true.
Derrell
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Username: Derrell

Post Number: 117
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, me too. I simply want to know what is true. These days I am looking at physical evidence rather than what someone said.

Some say that miracle healings and financial turnarounds are being performed by the like of Benny Hinn. I have been in the religious TV business long enough to know them for the frauds they are.

I like the Jesus I read about in the four Gospels. He is everything good. He even begs forgiveness for his executioners after a lifetime of helping, healing, forgiving, teaching love and concern, and never harming anyone in any way. God or not, I can get behind that!
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 593
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My BIL is a pilot and flew me early one morning over the mountains of western Montana. It could not have been more clear and pristine. As the sun was coming up and the lighting from it was at its peak, it dawned on me that to truly and completely believe there is no God who created such perfectness took as much faith or more than it takes to believe that there is One True Being.

Derrell (and Blacksheep and Snowboarding Mom), I completely understand the words you are sharing and I know the emotions you are feeling. I have walked where you are walking...it's okay...Jesus is THE ONLY place one can really begin in the journey of faith. Just keep walking... :-)
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1075
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell, what physical evidence for the claims of Christ are you looking for? In your last post #117, you say you like the Jesus you read about in the four gospels. Do you then also believe the claims He made for himself? In other words He would either have to be a lunatic or a liar if he claimed to be God if it were not true. He claimed He would die for our sins and rise again on the 3rd day. He says He is coming back glorified at the right hand of the Father to judge the living and the dead. Also, in the four gospels Jesus spent more time talking about hell than He did heaven. He even said that hell was eternal. That Jesus is also in the 4 gospels you are talking about, but these features were not listed in your post.

There was a lawyer years ago named Frank Morrison, who set out on a determined mission to prove that the resurrection of Jesus was a myth and a hoax. He set out to write a book once and for all proving this fact. Well, guess what, in the process of this project, something happened. He actually examined the evidence of the four gospels from a lawyer standpoint, and realized, that if he were really an honest man, he would have to admit that the evidence was overwhelming for the truth of the resurrection. God opened up his spiritual eyes as well and the book that he wrote was called "Who Moved the Stone"? This is a classic illustration of what happens when even an avowed skeptic will at least study the evidence from the New Testament documents, and put together all the Old Testament prophecies and evidence that leads men to call Him "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" as Handel did in his great "Messiah " Hallelujah chorus that we celebrate this time of the year.

Stan
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 594
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snwoboarding Mom,

You asked about starting a new discussion...go to the "Topics" page and scroll down...down...down... at the bottom it says "New Topic".

You also mentioned the safety of the SDA box vs. living with the New Covenant...Trust me - I think this is a "normal" thought of everyone who begins a journey of finding their own walk with God...:-)

Jesus said, "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS." (Mtt. 11:29)

Acts 15:10 calls the law our yoke that is a "bondage too heavy to bear". Gal 5:1 tell us that through Jesus we are free and that we will never have the yoke of slavery again.

Though the lists and regulations give us comfort, they also give us fear. If all we have is guidelines then the relationship is not real or comforting. Look at the great Old Testament characters of faith. They are not known for their keeping of lists and regulations...they are known for their faith and dependence on God which only comes from a relationship not a keeping of lists.

It is only through a relationship that we have complete comfort without fear or discontent. And we only have a relationship when we skip the lists and requirements and fear that goes with them.

It seems like I am talking in circles...sorry for rambling...I really wish I could give you the encouragement you need. Please know you are not walking your journey alone...I know exactly what your emotions are. If I could encourage you to do one thing it would be to read Galatians...it is about Christ living in us and not us living in the law...that is where all our security lies!

Denise
Lydell
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Username: Lydell

Post Number: 735
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would enourage those questioning to go back to the gospels and read them again. Not to scrape doctrine from them, but to observe Jesus. He said that those who had seen him had seen the Father. So to know what God is like, you look at what Jesus was like. I really don't think anyone can come to conclusions on much doctrine until they reach the point of being able to acknowledge that God is real and trustworthy.

I have no doubts of the existence of God. He is so real to me. I have seen has hand in my life. I have felt the touch of His presence, even during the darkest blackest night.

Derrell, financial turnarounds and miraculous healings ARE happening today still. I'm not talking about those TV preachers. Rather I'm speaking of ordinary Christians. Don't give up looking for God. His love for you is such an awesome thing!
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I'm relieved to know that I'm not alone.

Denise, I've been thinking about what you said, and I think you hit it right on. I never understood that the Church and God were two separate things. Because I have faith in one, I have faith in the other. When my faith in the Church wavers, everything else does too I guess. And to have knowledge from the Holy Spirit rather than man is such a new concept. Sure, while in Adventism, I would say I was being lead by the Spirit in my understanding of Scripture, where in reality I was being lead by man-based doctrine. And now that I don't have that man-based theology to rely on, I realize I lack the faith in relying on God (hard for me to admit that, but it's true).

And Lynne, your advice on not rushing to try and get every little thing right with the Bible is good advice for me. I think I am focusing so much on trying to find the "true church" to replace my previous "true church", that I am getting overwhelmed by all the different beliefs out there and since I haven't been able to find anything that's close to having all the truth (whatever that is), then I think none of it may be true. Wierd reasoning, but I think that's part of what's going on in my head.

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm not alone, and it's been encouraging once again to hear everyone else's experience.

Thanks. I'll just keep going, and hopefully this journey will come to some sort of resolution here soon... I'm tired! Sometimes I think it was better when I didn't know any better.

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