| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2004  |
The search for the perfect and true church is a little like a unicorn hunt. And there are so many choices and considerations that it can become overwhelming. While there may not be a perfect church, there are a number of good ones. We visited a number of churches in our search for a new home. For a long while we wondered if we were ever going to find a church we really felt comfortable with calling home. But we learned plenty during the process. We learned about worship styles that we liked more than others. And we learned to focus on the doctrines that were most important to us. One of the most re-assuring things I find in discussion with others here, is that people have found new church homes in a variety of places. And have become a comfortable part of these new churches and grow in their experience of God in each of these. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2002 |
Stan asked "Derrell, what physical evidence for the claims of Christ are you looking for? In your last post #117, you say you like the Jesus you read about in the four gospels. Do you then also believe the claims He made for himself?" I don't always believe what I like. The Jesus represented in the four gospels is a person who cares for people, teaches love, and practices love. Do I believe he existed? Yes, as I believe the Buddha and Mohammed existed. Do I believe he is/was God? Well, thats a little shaky. Do I believe all the stories in the gospels? No, not really, but regardless of their veracity what they teach regarding love and care for one's fellow humans is admirable and good. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2005 |
Ah, this thread has been good for me! Good because as I ponder the questions, I realize that I DO believe in God. It has not always been the case for me. My questions about the reality of God and Christianity occurred more frequently while firmly entrenched in the Adventist system. And they did occur. They still do, but fleetingly. I donít know what doctrines I believe, doctrinal study confuses me, discourages me, angers me etc. I still have one foot in Adventism, one foot out, but I am standing on the Solid Rock. Ric, rarely am I able to "manufacture" a feeling of connection with God when I am purposely trying to do so. Most often, a sense of His presence, His peace, His grace, etc., just occurs spontaneously, often through music or nature-- then I am compelled to study His word, pray, praise, etc. That fact confirms my faith, and my belief in the Gift, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my "effort". My encounters with God have been so personal, and so powerful, that I cannot discount them. God is the ONLY one who has been faithful to me. At some point, every person, including myself, every "belief", every tradition, every institution, every security, has let me down, has crumbled, has disappointed. I believe God in His mercy allowed this to happen, although through most of the journey I cursed, argued, and wrestled with Him. Yet He remains faithful, He actually continues to love me...amazing. I know that now, but I didnít always, and I donít trivialize the pain and questions and doubts of others. Grace, Derrell, Blacksheep, Jeremiah, I Praise God, that you care enough to ask and doubt! Indifference would be greater cause for concern. God is calling you! He created your mind and He loves to see you use it. He is preparing you... He WILL show himself to you. Your faith will be stronger because of your doubt. Itís a rich dichotomy. Itís a perplexing paradox. It is the great mystery! I do see miracles, for now they are mostly personal. The ongoing transformation of my cynical, cold heart, is perhaps for me a greater miracle than a physical healing. I pray that God will reveal Himself to each one of you in a powerful way. JavaGirl | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3048 Registered: 12-2003  |
I also understand the doubts, Derrell, Snowboarding Mom, Jeremiah, Blacksheep--sometimes they still still come out of nowhere and throw me off balance. I do know, now, that Jesus is who He said He was, and I understand increasingly that God is consistent, merciful, and deeply good. I'd like to add one other suggestion to the excellent ones above. (Thanks, Dd, for stating so clearly that the church and God are distinct entities.) That suggestion is to ask God to reveal Himself to you in a way you can clearly recognize Him. Now, that prayer presupposes that you will ask it honestly! IOW, if you really aren't sure you want to know Him, it's probably a pointless prayer. If you really do want to know what is true, however, God will reveal truth. I believe that as long as we hold onto our "right" to rationally conclude truth on the basis of "scientific" fact, we automatically limit our ability to preceive truth. If we believe we are capable of perceiving truth on the basis of our intellect alone, we dismiss the possibility that truth may be bigger than we can see. I believe that if we are not willing to risk giving up all we believe and value for the sake of discovering reality and truth, we will not be willing/able to recognize if when we see it. I further believe that if we are really wanting to discover the truth about God, we have to expose ourselves to the place He has designated as His revealed will: the Scriptures. Even if we doubt the Scriptures, we can't possibly conclude anything definite without considering them. Ultimately, though, it is the desire to really know what is truth and our humble request for God to reveal Himself if He is real that will result in our finding reality. And, as Dd also said, it may take time. Her point about becoming acquainted with Scripture in a venue not related to Adventism was also significant. How one book could have looked SO DIFFERENT in Adventism than it began to look in the context of studying it with people who had no cultic background is amazing. With prayers for all of us... Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 239 Registered: 6-2001  |
My husband also struggled with this issue, and a book he just absorbed over a period of time (it is a very big book) is "evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. I think this book has come up before. Even the fact we had the book in our library at all is testament to God. My mom bought it for us out of the blue because she had enjoyed reading it. Because it is so imposing-looking, it sat around for a couple of years, but when my husband needed to read it, it was there. Providentially, Hannah | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 113 Registered: 6-2005 |
Grace, Im tired too. I'm tired of feeling isolated from the people and the beliefs of adventist church. I'm tired of the search for a different church home. I find I dont trust any church, I find fault with every church I visit in my area. I dont trust any of the pastors or their beliefs or the denominations. I question their motives. They all seem to want to build a bigger church...they all call it "God's Vision, or God's Challenge, or God's Miracle, or God's Purpose....As if God's greatest desire is for us to build larger tabernacles on earth... I need a church large enough to have a decent youth program, but the large ones all seem focused on bigger, newer buidings. I'm just lonely. I miss the sense of belonging. I miss having some degree of certainty about all the doctrinal issues. Im really floundering. Im ready for some resolution too. Thank God I have God, or He has me... I guess part of my cynical heart remains intact! Hugs JavaGirl 4excape@bellsouth.net | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2091 Registered: 3-2004  |
JavaGirl, When I left adventism, I prayed about a home church. God finally impressed me with the church He wanted me to attend. When I walked in and sat down, I felt like I had come home. I have since discovered the head pastor believes in tithing, but does not teach it as a must do thing. I have spoken to him about it, showing Bible texts in the OT about tithing. I told him when I heard him mention tithing, I felt like walking out. But now when I hear that word, I just tell myself that God loves a cheerful giver. What I am trying to say is that God has a church all picked out for you. He will lead you there in His time and not your time. I do not know about you, but I want things done, like yesterday or right now, this very minute. Well, God does things in His time and when it is best for us. He does not make mistakes. I understand the loneliness and the sense of belonging. Keep asking God to send the Holy Spirit to teach you when you read the Bible. What I have been doing recently is read only a few verses and concentrating on them and what they say to me. God does have a special church for you. He will take you there, in His time. I have you on my prayer list. God, You know about JavaGirl's loneliness and sense of belonging and the doctrinal issues and the certainty she would like. You have made very clear the one important doctrine and that is that to know the Father, we go through the Son, Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus we are saved when we love and accept Him. There are so many other things in the Bible that are not clear, but what is important to me is not knowing the right doctrine, but knowing who we know and that is Jesus Christ. Be with JavaGirl tonight that she will know you are holding her in your awesome hands while she is going through all this. Thank you God for answering this prayer. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 596 Registered: 7-2004 |
Java and Snow Mom, Hang in there! God has lead you this far and He will not abandon you now. All along this journey of finding God during a difficult transition you are growing and learning principles that can only be learned through trials. Keep Jesus first and your reward will be a peace that passes understanding. Look at all the Bible greats. They all suffered highs and lows. Faith is not about a doubt-free life nor is it a ticket on a ride devoid of pain. Sometimes faith is just hanging on in the darkness. It means depending on God. I have the following quote written in the margin of my Bible by James 1:2,3: "I can say with complete truthfullness that everything I have learned in this world that has enhanced and enlightened my experience, has been through affliction and not through happiness." I think it may be a quote of Mother Teresa but I can't remmber where I got it from. I think it is so true..."Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encournter various trails, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance" James 1:2,3 The church we have been attending for a little over a year is FINALLY starting to feel like home to my husband and kids and me. It has taken endurance. We have missed knowing those who attend, being a part of the planning and having connections that reach outside of the service but by sticking with it we are finally feeling like part of a family. You are on the right road...just keep on keeping on! Denise | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi all: In answer to the original question...yes, I have most assuredly doubted that God existed. I have doubted the validity of Scripture and definitely doubted that Jesus is who He said He was. The first question is this (in my opinion): "is there evidence of good and evil?" If so, is it random? Is it part of an evolutionary process? Is it supernatural? I believe that is the most fundamental question to be answered in the quest to decide whether God is real or not. The hard reality is though, that it does come down to a decision. It may come when your loved one is on their death bed and you're begging for their life to be restored...it may come when your baby is born and you realize the amazing-ness of it. It may come when you're driving down the road and listening to Bon Jovi  ...but a moment in time...a very solid, real, tangible moment will come...when the God of the Universe will speak to your soul and ask you to make a decision. You have to be honest (I only say this because I've been there) and decide whether you WANT Jesus to be real. I don't know about you, but for a while, I was just FINE being without a God. I figured that I was duped once, hades would freeze over before I would be duped again. I don't say that you need to decide if you want him to be real because that will change His "realness", only your ability to "see" Him. Anyway, rambling thoughts from a fellow traveler! Patria | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 736 Registered: 7-2000 |
Javagirl, I'll warn you right now that you aren't probably going to like what I have to say. But would you please be willing to read it and just consider? Remember, this is coming from someone who was where you are right now. My husband and I met with friends as a home church for 7 long miserable years. Then we finally found a church.....and I will tell you here HOW we found that church. You will never find a church if you continue to go to visit looking for what is wrong. You have to be willing to look for what is right. For the former, the only "checklist" should be the most basic fundamentals of Christianity. Beyond that, we have to be willing to suspect that there are a few things they can teach us. After all, WE are the ones who have been wrong for years. WE are the ones who were following a false prophetess. We were the ones caught up in legalism. And all that time other Christians were going along joyfully enjoying their Lord. You've got to ask yourself what they know that you haven't known. I see you are saying that you can't trust the churches, the pastors, the denominations, or their beliefs. That's not where you want to be putting your trust. That is what kept us in our wilderness home church for those 7 years. We didn't trust anyone. Finally one day we took a long hard look at ourselves and had to admit that we were not happy. We were lonely, we were miserable, there was no joy in following the Lord. Our suspicious minds, our lack of trust in Him, was keeping us isolated from Christendom. Then we had to look at who God is. Creator of universe, the one who makes the rules, able to give the Bible for us to know His thoughts. No matter where you are right now in your understanding of God, you have to acknowledge that if He is truly "God" then it means He is WAY bigger than you. We finally had to reach that decision point of acknowledging that it was only logical that someone large enough to be "God" is someone large enough to have many people in our area who He talks to. In other words, we had to lay aside pride. We were not, and this was a humbling little revelation to realize we had been prideful, the sole extra special holders of truth in our corner of the world. You are talking about GOD! Javagirl, do you really think you are the only person in your corner of the world that God reveals truth to? Does it honestly make sense that someone powerful enough to be God is only able to reveal truth to you? Or does it make a heck of alot more sense that He has a bunch of people that He has worked with? You can attend a church and not join you know. You can go there and never join (which actually is a mistake because it means you have never accepted someone as your family). So, we finally told God we gave up on following after what we, in our immense wisdom, knew was "the way it should be" and that we were, in fact, clueless. We would be willing to go anywhere and keep an open mind. BUT we also asked Him to go before us, to direct us, AND (this is hugely important!) to validate for us that we were in the right place....that he would give us the validation not just once, but numerous times. The first place we went was a neighborhood Bible study group. These people were absolutely in no way what we would have thought of as "church folk". They were all.....every single one of them....former alcoholics or drug addicts. Several were still (religious gasp) smoking! Some were still (bigger religious gasp) still struggling with their addictions. Their language was definitely not "churchy". But you know what, they loved the Lord, the were doing their best. As time went along we came to realize that some were making progress, some were not, and some were playing religious games after all. Actually when we went there that night we told God we were too stupid and if we were in the wrong place He would have to send someone to give us an invitaton to the right place. That night 4 people invited us to the same church. That church is where we are now. We continued with the other group until we just had a settled feeling that we were not to continue meeting with them any more. It wasn't because we saw the problems there (because we hadn't yet) it was just that it wasn't the right place. When we walked into the place that is now our church home, I was ready to walk back out because they had (here's another religious gasp) drums and electric guitars. I've seen people turn around and walk out the door for several reasons: because people there wear blue jeans, we have music CD's for sale by the front door, we drink coffee while Lyle is preaching, we have cookies to eat in the sanctuary, the pastor doesn't wear a suit, we don't use the King James Version, we don't do communion the "right" way, we dare to actually laugh at something during a service, and because we were putting up a new building (debt free, church members did a huge portion of the work...building because their were more hurting people who needed a different sort of church to attend)see, they never stopped to ask how or why. Good grief the list is long. The point is, we have a load of assumptions for why these people called "Christians" do what they do. But our assumptions are colored by Adventism's suspicions that we were brain washed to carry. The only way to cut through those assumptions is to not trust our own judgment any more--hey our judgment kept us in adventism. We have to be willing to trust God. If you are putting your trust in Him, seeking Him for your direction, willing to focus on the things that He is focusing on and set aside our pet peeves or even those questions that we deeply want answered, then He can lead us. He is going to answer your questions and He will make sure you hear the answers! As long as your ears are open to listen and work with Him on this thing. And I do apologize for the wordiness. I am passionate about this thing of folks finding their family! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2004  |
No need to apologize for the wordiness, Lydell-- that was an excellent post! I can so relate to many of your points. I know that I'm so used to proudly having the "correct understanding" on doctrines, that it does make it very hard to find a church to fit into. However, there are two factors that still limits options for me. One is resolved, and don't know if the other will be. These two are: 1) There are a LOT of churches out there who simply don't understand grace either and 2) will the church I'm eventually a member of accept that I don't agree with 100% of their doctrines? It seems that the non-denominational churches are more likely to have a short list of required beliefs. But, the non-denoms in our area simply don't get the grace thing and I will not tolerate legalism. We found a great church that I'm certain is where God wants us right now, and understands grace--BUT, since it's a denominational church and has a lengthy list of doctrines, is it okay with them for me to agree on the "essential" ones, or do they expect agreement on every point? Guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I can just envision the SDA scenario, where basically you publicly affirm belief in every doctrine, but everyone knows you really don't. It felt dishonest to be that way as an SDA, and I don't want to be that way now. I won't say I believe something if I don't. Part of what continued to motivate us to find something that would work out for us is because I do strongly feel like every Christian belongs in a supportive fellowship of other Christians, and I realize that our SDA background negatively colors many things in this transition process. I've known several former SDA's who just stay out of fellowship for literally years and years, and I'm sure that is not what God intends! I too have come to the place where I don't think my particular way of viewing doctrines is more important than healthy Christian fellowship. It can be scary and discouraging, but God leads on. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1216 Registered: 7-2003  |
Raven, having been a part of several different denominational churches, I'd be surprised if you found fundamental belief statements pushed in the same way as those in adventism. Though I was raised in a primarily southern baptist environment, I never one time heard them talk about their fundamental beliefs. Membership was based upon the relationship with Christ. Same thing in the Assembly of God churches I've been a part of. In my older years, I've started to hear more about agreement with belief statements, but those churches have only the essentials as you mentioned. You can't be a member of our church if you don't believe in the diety nature of father, son, holy spirit, sola scriptura, and a couple of others. But beliefs of end times scenarios, what to eat, what to wear, when to worship, etc. aren't mentioned. I also thought your post excellent, Lydell. Frankly, just because of the fear of B's judgement, sometimes I become "hyper" critical of churches and forget about grace as they grow under the leadership of God. I have found that God has moved me as I have grown spiritually and perhaps lived out my purpose in that place. And God truly does let you know when your ears are open and willing to hear what may be personally uncomfortable. Faith is an action word. It's not just something to talk about. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3059 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lydell, thank you for your post. You described so well what many of us experience as we look or looked for a church home. Raven, our EV Free church (it's a denomination, but members don't join the denomination, only the congregation) did not require belief in every non-central doctrine. As Melissa mentioned, the list was reasonable and included the Trinity, the inerrancy of the Scripture in the original manuscripts, the incarnation, death, and resurrection, salvation by grace through faith alone, the return of Jesus, and--gasp--hell. At the time we joined, we couldn't subscribe to eternal hell. We went to the pastor after the membership class and said their was one doctrine we had trouble with. He looked at us and said, "Hell, right?!" He proceeded to tell us that because we were coming from Adventism--understanding how we had been taught--belief in eternal hell would not be required for us to join. He further said that if we were coming to Christianity from a place of previous complete unbelief, they would consider the issue differently because it would suggest we didn't want to subscribe to the concept of God's justice. Ironically, today we do believe eternal hell is biblical. But at the time we joined, even though it was part of the congregation's statement of belief, they allowed us to see the issue differently. But Lydell, you're so right about formers needing to lay down their need to be "right" and to have everyone around them "right" about non-salvational doctrinal issues. Questions about the rapture, tribulation, the millennium, etc.--these don't divide true Christ-followers. We have to humble ourselves and allow Jesus to be our core rallying point and sole loyalty. If a church does not place Jesus, the cross, and salvation by grace at the center, that is reason to move on. I firmly believe that God leads us in His time to the congregation where He wants us. Just keep praying! Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2005 |
Your message touched my heart Lydell. You're absolutely right. My pride and feelings of "what's right and what's not" is keeping me from really experiencing a true conversion. I'm beginning to realize after reading the posts that what I'm really going through is a conversion experience, and I need to lay it all down -- not just part of it, but all of it. All of the baggage, my ideas of doctrine, and everything. I haven't been doing that, and it's obvious in my happiness and ability to cope. And it's keeping me from really experiencing Jesus. Wow. To write that is such a realization for me. Wow. Thanks for the straight-talk. I needed to hear it. Grace | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 387 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, the church we are at now is particularly healing because the pastor seems to have a very similar attitude to what you have described. He clearly doesn't understand all of the problems with SDAism--and I am reluctant right now to go there with him, I feel a strong conviction that it is time to focus more on where we are now, and where we may be heading, than on where we have been. But what the pastor does have is a patient, gentle demeanor. He has no burning desire or need to show us how we are wrong and he is right, although he will gladly discuss the issue. This kind of warmth and acceptance is very healing. It also helps to place any of our doctrinal issues into perspective. Rather than pressure us to agree with everything, or pressure us about the need to join, his encouragement has been to take our time while welcoming us to participate in any way that a member does. I can't put into words what a blessing that has been for us. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 120 Registered: 10-2002 |
Lyndell, I know that you mean well, and I can somewhat understand what you are saying, however, having been for so long in an environment where one must lay down their need to question, or become the enemy, I place a very high value on that right. That need to question was often termed a selfish "need to be right" by those whose opinions were not to be questioned. It seems that in religion and politics the right to question is good, as long as you are questioning the other side. I remain very cautious. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ellen G. White wrote in 1909: "But, when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 260. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 388 Registered: 7-2004 |
I guess I read Lydell's post very differently than you did. I didn't see a requirement that we give up our right to question, I saw instead a suggestion that having been so wrong and so deceived perhaps it is good to be humble and discover what we can learn from others. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 123 Registered: 10-2002 |
Right now, Ric, listening to others is a scary thing to me. I have been so wrong and deceived because I listened to others. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 364 Registered: 8-2004  |
I wonder if it would help if you shift your focus from listening to others and instead WORSHIP with them? It is God thru the work of the Holy Spirit in us who is to guide and teach us. |
