| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 381 Registered: 7-2004  |
I was quite sad to have this pointed out to me. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/06/churches.closed.christmas.ap/index.html It seems that several of the seeker-friendly mega-churches think a church service on Christmas would be too inconvenient. I can't think of anything I am looking forward to more on Christmas day. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1069 Registered: 3-2005 |
That's right Ric_b, that would be too seeker insensitive! Where is this movement going to end up? Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 509 Registered: 4-2000  |
Our church, the First Evangelical Free Church, is also not having Sunday services on Christmas Day. However, there will be a special Christmas Eve service. The idea is that they want families to be together on Christmas Day. Personally, I also would prefer services on Christmas Day. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1208 Registered: 7-2003  |
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but the churches I've been in have always had lower attendance on Sunday, 12/25. But Christmas eve is always packed regardless of what day of the week it falls on. I have really mixed feelings about it, as I'm a parent, and I serve in the worship and arts ministry and I'm a Christian. I know what it takes to put together a service with childrens ministries and music and parking and facilities, etc. It is not merely "convenience", but there are real logistical issues for volunteers and staff. It's one thing if you just do one service, basically 9 - noon. But it is completely different when you put in multiple services across a couple of days. If a minister is spending his Christmas weekend at church, how is that going to be seen in the eyes of his kids? Do we really just expect them to see their father as a minister primarily and their dad second? Many may not have young kids, but the ministers at my church do. I feel the conflict for them and the volunteers, as I would like to serve myself, but I'd have to have my kids at church for 3 services, including one that is very late for a 2 year old and my DD daughter. How special is Christmas going to be for them in that situation? And for those who have relatives in town...do you just abandon them, have them come to all services? What? Those churches in that article weren't cancelling all services for the weekend, and it even says they added additional services on Friday and Saturday for worship opportunities. If you want to be critical, at least acknowledge not all services for the weekend are cancelled, just those on Sunday. Why is it "simply" succombing to secularism and not recognizing that churches with multiple services are made up of servants, and those servants' families make huge sacrifices in some areas of ministry. Even if you do a skeleton crew, how many sound board techs does the average church have? Or piano players, etc? Do you omit childrens ministries because of lack of volunteers? Or do those who serve just not get to leave town or otherwise detract from their "normal" duties for the day? Our church is doing its regular Saturday service an hour earlier and our typical Christmas eve service at 11...but they thought it would be too hard to get people back at 9 am, so we're just having a 10:45 service Christmas day. Personally, I've decided to go to the Saturday service rather than try to do Sunday morning. I'll have all 3 kids alone, and it's hard enough on a regular Sunday, let alone one where we've been at church at midnight the night before. I really love Christmas eve services and if I had to choose one over the other, I'd take that midnight service. I'm not going to judge other churches for what they do, but I know it is quite a commitment to those who do serve for holiday weekends. On a typical weekend, you basically are at church for 24 hours with time off to sleep. It is impractical to get together 3 separate groups of musicians, etc. for 3 services, so when you're on, you're on for all services. I imagine it is a real challenge to get people to commit to that level on Christmas, especially. Does that "prove" someone a shallow Christian? Can we at least see the potential conflict of family and faith? No other time of the year do we do 11 pm services. Though it still seems they could probably do at least a skeleton service, the fact that they are doing multiple services on Saturday and Friday still means people have the opportunity to worship. Or are we going to say worshipping on Sunday is more important than worshipping on Saturday?? I'm not saying the decision was right or wrong, but it seems unfair to say it is purely for convenience or secular reasons. I'm sure the logistics were way more complex than that. It may be the "wrong" day, but there are worship opportunities for the weekend even in those churches closing on Sunday. Can we show some grace to those folks at all? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1209 Registered: 7-2003 |
I just checked Rick Warren's church...they are having 2 services 12/22, 3 services 12/23, SIX services on Saturday 12/24 and one on 12/25. PLUS they have special programs for children with special needs (always gets extra bonus points with me). How many churches out there completely ignore the special needs community? If they weren't having services 12/25, I'm sure someone would point it out as a negative, so it seemed "fair" to point out the positive of how many worship opportunities exist within that 4 day period. No small feat. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2005 |
Does it really matter which day of the week we worship on? Our church is not having church on Sunday, but is having services on Saturday. There is nothing wrong with letting the church workers have a day off to enjoy Christmas with their families. My prayers and thanks go out to all who work in our churches. It is okay not to do everything according to tradition. Not that I can escape giving my kids Christmas gifts! But thank God I can give them gifts! It is also okay just to enjoy Christmas in front of the Christmas tree, with family, on the couch, watching a game (you men) and serving others (us women). Not to say that men always do nothing. My husband puts up the tree and puts lights on our home to make our home shine, showing that we do celebrate this wonderful day. Many will be serving on that day in our homes, for our families, for our children. If there are people who would prefer to enjoy a Christmas service, to be served, it would likely make you feel better to serve others, perhaps at a shelter. I'm sure there is plenty that could be done in only a couple of hours. I know the Salvation Army will be bringing food, toys and church to many needy people in most communities. I wish more that everyone could enjoy Christmas, especially children. Now I know what Jesus wants for Christmas - That is who He is! Just enjoy Christmas wherever you are. Thank you Jesus! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1210 Registered: 7-2003 |
Amen, Lynne! I think Romans 14 applies even to Christmas day. Let everyone worship and celebrate as he is convinced in his own mind. If there is correction of motive, I trust the Holy Spirit to provide it to those individuals he sees neccessary. (Message edited by melissa on December 08, 2005) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1211 Registered: 7-2003 |
Here are some other internet thoughts on this topic: http://www.thinkchristian.net/?p=454 Seems thoughts are varied. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 382 Registered: 7-2004 |
If Christmas presents, trees, and football games are more important than the reason for the celebration, then yes I would wonder about whether the secular aspects of the day have become more important than the religious. You are correct, there is no mandate that we must celebrate that day. But what is next. Do we stop Easter services too, so that people have more time for egg hunts and family dinners? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2005 |
There are still religious services, just the day before Christmas. People are busier in our culture at Christmas than Easter. Easter services will happen and won't likely change. We've just tweaked our schedules out of consideration for all the hard working people in our culture and we have no place judging them for wanting to enjoy Christmas outside of attending a religious service within the pertinent hours. I'm glad there are more people who are sensitive to the needs of others over religious tradition. The Christians aren't all surrendering to secularism! We never watch football games in our home on Christmas, we listen to Christmas music. Does that mean we somehow have surrendered ourselves less to secularism? By the way, are you cooking or being cooked for. I guarantee you, Salvation Army will have a religious service for all who need a religious service on Christmas day. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1070 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Melissa for posting that site. I have been too busy today to surf the net very much today. But I have seen good articles on both sides of the issue. Mega-churches are also Mega-businesses, and you alerted me to that fact by reminding me of all the people they hire as well as all the volunteers that would like to have Christmas off with their families. That is OK. Just to dovetail on Ric_b's remarks, this has nothing to do with any moral compunction to keep any day holy. However, the church is in danger of sending the wrong message to the world via CNN who is looking for every opportunity to point out the inconsistencies of the church. It gives the appearance that the church is following the culture by keeping Christ out of Christmas, though I would not agree that it is. I actually agree with Saddleback's approach in having services all weekend with one service on Sunday, and also I see no problem with a Christmas eve service instead of a Christmas day service. But the trends are disturbing with some of the churches, as it sure gives the appearance that "there was no room for Him in the inn" as it says in Luke. Christ is getting Xed out of Christmas in so many ways in our secular culture. After all, Christmas should be Jesus's birthday, and is all about Him, but unfortunately our culture has turned it into all about us. But, I think that there was some overreaction by some bloggers on the web about this situation. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 383 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, I would concur with you about Saddleback's approach of reducing the number of services on the day to better match the attendance. Nor would I question a reduction in how elaborate the production was going to be on Christmas morning. But the decision of some of the mega churches to close completely on Christmas sends an awful message within our society. Nor do the "reasons" provided in the news for closing on Christmas provide a strong witness to the world about the importance of Christ. Ask yourself, what witness has this provided to the unsaved? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2005 |
It is true that many in our society are trying go be politically correct and putting the name of Christ out of things. And it is true, that we can't get rid of the ACLU or non-Christian religions in our culture. To be politically correct is to say Happy Holidays and not Merry Christmas. But I personally don't think the churches and pastors are putting secularism over Christ just because the Christmas services are 12 or so hours before Christmas instead of on Christmas. There is nothing wrong with exalting Christ in your home with your family on His birthday. It is really more the tradition of worship on Sunday that is an issue. I don't believe it is intended to be about selfish convenience. Should the churches stay open on Christmas to avoid worldy criticism? Perhaps. But where would the unsaved normally go the day before Christmas? Not to church because the services are on Christmas. Well, they can go to a Christmas service the day before now. Many churches are not big. Many pastors will be working hard through Christmas eve. It would be nice to show our appreciation to them and not make them feel guilty over yielding to secularism. Of course, if it is your opinion church should be open, let him know. But don't forget to show your appreciation for what he is doing. I hope everyone here will have a very "Merry Christmas" and I am grateful you are here and to now know, for the first Christmas, that I am saved, not working on being saved. Bless you all. In Christ. Lynne  | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1109 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric_b, Since you mentioned above under another Christmas thread about the ongoing concern of churches closing on Christmas Sunday, here is an interesing update about the ongoing controversy over this, and it will not go away. www.challies.com/archives/001530.php Also, Chuck Smith, of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (which is a mega-church) has come out publicly against the other mega-churches for doing what they are doing. His radio program specifically singled out Willow Creek in Chicago for skipping Christmas Sunday services entirely, and instead handing out a DVD for free to everyone, so they can then have Christmas at their convenience. Apparently the reason the seeker sensitive churches decided to close is because there would not be enough seekers. The point of all this is the trend and perception that all this gives to the world, that the secularization of Christmas has even penetrated the churches. It is obviously not a right or wrong issue, it is a perception issue. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great link Stan. I loved this quote from Pastor Harris regarding his decision to re-instate services Christmas morning.
That sums up my feelings about this so well. Regarding the comments about not enough seekers I have to ask. How many seekers would be enough to keep a church open? Would just one, spurred by the meaning of holiday, be enough to make the work of every paid staff and volunteer at the church worth the effort? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1229 Registered: 7-2003 |
Interesting article, Stan. Did you read some of the comments posted below? Some of them sounded down-right sabbitarian. I don't have an issue with your premise, Ric, but who decides which volunteers have to stay in town or choose the Sunday services over anything else they might have to do? I'm one who has stayed in town holiday after holiday because no one else would help cover my post, and it wasn't fair to me or my family to never get to take advantage of the extra day off work for a little R and R .... BEFORE people start passing judgement towards people's alleged desire to watch football over worship, perhaps they could help organize a volunteer staff who would be available to fill the necessary spots for the service. I suspect that and a little honest communication with the staff in charge of such decisions would be more fruitful toward the end goal than some of the harsh criticism I've read. (Message edited by melissa on December 20, 2005) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2004 |
If you read through the article you would have seen that Pastor Harris addressed that by scaling back a number of the volunteer activities so that it would decrease the burden on church members. Some of those who have a problem with cancelling Christmas services are Sunday Sabbatarians, and they use this as their basis for their objection. But plenty of people who are decidedly not sabbatarian (much like me) reach the same conclusion for different reasons. Ask yourself what the witness in the community has truly been where the "convenience of the calendar" is dictating worship. | ||
| Mrsbrian3 Registered user Username: Mrsbrian3 Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2005 |
I tend to agree with Ric that services should be held on Christmas, even if you scale back the services to accommodate employee/volunteer vacation schedules. I would add, though, that I think there should be Christmas services no matter what day of the week it falls on. Of course as an SDA I wouldn't have bothered to attend the services that were held because Jesus' birth really wasn't THAT important. When you begin to realize that it was all-holy God in that manger, it completely changes the meaning and thus the importance of the holiday. Although it's not only the "Sunday churches" cutting back on their schedules for Christmas. We went to an SDA church last Sabbath for my nephew's baptism. It was the first time we'd been since the first weekend in July. The guest pastor cut his sermon short "since it was Christmas". He did, however, find time to get in a story about how the inhabitants of a California city called "Remnant" tried to swim across the ocean to a Hawaii called "Perfection". They kept failing, but then they discovered Jesus flew an airplane back and forth between Remnant and Perfection so they didn't have to swim. Brian3 and I about bust waiting for the service to end so that we could discuss how many ways that story was wrong! God is so good! I just can't thank Him enough for His continued guidance and mercy! Kim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3095 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ha! I can just imagine myself in that service, Kim! I agree; God is SO good. I totally know that He chose me, awoke me, called me, and removed that veil that would have forever kept me in darkness. I'm so grateful to Him for helping me see so I could actually surrender to Him, not to a theological idea. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1230 Registered: 7-2003 |
Just a warning, there are a lot of questions here that I have personally pondered and if someone has an "easy" answer for them, I'd be interested in knowing what they are. But it is a long post to show the depth of thought I have put into the issue. I wonder if others have had these thoughts. I read the entire article, including comments below. Since I don't personally know of a local church cancelling services on Sunday because it was "inconvenient", I haven't heard any comments about it in the community. My pastor made one comment that he didn't understand why people were cancelling services, and we have scaled back most programs for Sunday, but it appears to me people are focused on the fact it's Sunday. And by focusing on the fact it's Sunday seems to take the focus off Christ, like focusing on the fact it's the "sabbath". So, it always seems to turn around to the day issue. We have Christmas Eve services regardless of what day of the week it is. I would tend to follow Kim's reasoning if we don't want to make it about a day (Sunday), then every Christmas should have services...but doesn't that make Christmas Eve services redundant? Not knowing what ages your kids are, Ric, are you going to Christmas Eve services AND Sunday services, or just Sunday services? I personally have heard our nursery director wondering if they were pagans to not bring their very young children to all services (we are keeping nursery up to preschool as it is most difficult to have them sit that long quietly). But that does mean mom will be absent part of their Christmas. What about churches that cancel because of road issues (snow/ice)? Is that different? What if the church that choose to close organized with a local shelter serving the needy Christmas lunch to provide workers ... would that honor Christ, or do they have to have a service in their facility on Sunday to do so? What are the rules, and who defined them? I just wonder what we're being so critical about. Is it the day? Is it that something causes a particular service to reschedule? Or are people just critical and condeming because it breaks "tradition"? And how does all that criticism play in the community? Doesn't it just reinforce the perception of being judgemental and intolerant? I think I've always gone when church has been on Sunday prior years, but I didn't have the kids then that I have now and my circumstances are different. I'd like a little more grace for myself, so I guess I'd ask for some more for others unless we can identify a "sin" being committed here. The Bible doesn't say to "worship on Sunday" any more than it says to "worship on Jesus' birthday celebration". I know it may sound as though I have strong opinions about it, I really don't. And it may sound like I am taking it quite personally, which I am not either, but I don't think God's expectations for our church leaders are any different for them in this regard than for me, so if they "should" be there, then all Christians "should" be too. Like others in churches with multiple options, I have struggled with is it "wrong" to change the time I typically go so I can enjoy more time with my family...my daughter will be home, my dad's out of the hospital and will be coming. And it is my real birthday. Are those selfish reasons to go Saturday night rather than Sunday? Is it unrealistic to think those who are staff or service volunteers might encounter some of those same thoughts? Am I somehow saying my family is more important than going to church on Sunday? Should my family be more important than a specific worship hour? I'm just plain jane-average single mom wanting to do the right thing, does it hurt it's easier for me to enjoy part of Christmas than trying to get 3 kids out the door to church then home for dinner for 6 would be? Somewhere they're going to want to open gifts and at least one of the fathers expects to be able to spend part of the day with his son, so I'd like to get my turn in before he takes him away from the rest of his family. Divorce is a reality in the Christian church and I'm sure I'm not the only Christian parent forced to divide a holiday with another parent. Is it REALLY "finally, an excuse to stay home and watch football"?? Or just maybe, is it more complicated? It is not like every church is closing. Commune with other believers in a different fellowship if you feel that strongly. Move your membership if it is that much of an issue. But why must it be about "football" and "convenience of the calendar" ... such simple, cut and dry "secularism"? Certainly adding 17 services to Saturday can not be that "convenient". No doubt, it is easiest for me to go Saturday night rather than to try to cram everything into Sunday. Frankly, convenience is the reason we added Saturday services at our church. If it's wrong at Christmas, shouldn't it be wrong year-round? What about all those Sundays where the home team has noon kickoff, so everyone who's going to the game goes to Saturday service. Is that really any different than the situation this particular Sunday? The games all start at the same times. And maybe I'm so unique that for everyone else it really is about their ability to get to the football games 15 minutes earlier. But I really don't think so. If you looked at our attendance at services during the weekend, you would know when the chiefs are playing and if it's a home game based upon attendance numbers at each particular service. In years before Saturday services, many would cram in to the 9 am service before heading out to the game, but others would completely skip it. What is wrong for Christmas Sunday should be wrong every Sunday, right? I was a little surprised by my 12-year old when I told him we were going to the Saturday service instead of going to Sunday's service. He said, "but I'm supposed to work in 2 year olds at 9". I think he would be perfectly content to go Sunday morning. And if he really wants to go Sunday instead, I suspect we'll go. But it concerns me a bit that he might be getting fixated on the right "day" to go to church. Sorry to be long winded. I don't see the issue as simple and find it hard to condemn others when I know the personal angst that I have experienced trying to decide what is "right". Just maybe some others have had the same thoughts. Can you identify the sin for me? Aren't we guilty of judging how another serves his master in regards to days? Like Stan, I don't know the right/wrong answer. But I have asked myself a lot of questions beyond "convenience of the calendar" and football. And I'm still not convinced there is a "right" answer. |
