Post Number: 3126
|Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 4:41 pm: || |
A friend of our sent us a link today to a sermon by John Corson. In it he discusses the eight covenants in the Bible, and he camps particularly on the Noahic covenant in this sermon. He makes some fascinating observations in this sermon.
He points out that the Noahic covenant had three components: diet, discipline, and declaration. The diet part is what caught my attention. In Genesis 9, God said that every creature that moves is for food. This was the first time in the Bible that meat was given to humanity for food. The link is here:
About halfway (30 min.) into the sermon Corson points out that some scholars suggest that this giving of meat was not simply pragmatic but quite possibly had significant spiritual implications. He refers to a book called "Earth's Earliest Ages and Modern Spiritualism" by G. H. Plemmer as one source of scholarship regarding demons in the prehistoric ages of earth's history.
He refers to Genesis 6 when the "nephilim" came to the daughters of God and the result was the giants of old that roamed the earth. This obscure passage is not clear, but many have speculated that demons had sexual relations with humans and spawned what the Bible calls the "heroes of old". (I've often wondered if the Greek mythology of the pantheon of gods and the heroes such as Atlas who were supposed to be half god and half man originated from some reality lost in antiquity but quite real nonetheless.) The flood is recorded after the mention of the nehpilim's corruption of humanity.
Corson suggests that possibly something about meat-eating created aversions in demons--or maybe vegetgarianism was somehow part of honoring demons in the pre-flood corruption of humanity.
Corson goes on to point out that in the NT (1 Timothy 4:1-3) Paul says people will follow seducing or deceiving spirits and teachings of demons which includes abstaining from certain foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving. He further points out that in demonic religions, vegetariansim is rampant: Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Further, New Age "religions" also embrace vegetarianism. In short, Corson suggests that vegetarianism taught in conjuction with promises of heightened spiritual awareness or superior spirituality is actually a doctrine of demons and may be connected with spirit worship or spirit-honoring.
Corson's suggestion, ultimately, was that God's giving humanity meat to eat was not random or merely practical but was actually a spiritual protection. Because religious vegetarianism might well have been associated with demonic worship and spirit activity among humans, God's giving man meat to eat was a way of placing a spiritual protection over them, putting a barrier of sorts between them and the deception of evil spirits.
Whatever might have been behind God's giving meat after the flood, the NT is clear that religious vegetariansim, or promising enhanced spiritual perception or heightened spiritual awareness is a doctrine of demons.
Isn't it interesting that Ellen White taught that people who eat meat would not be able to be "translated", or be alive when Jesus comes. She also taught that vegetarianism helped control the "animal passions", and I clearly remember being tuaght that vegetarianism gave us clearer minds and healthier bodies so we could mentally "perceive" the Holy Spirit better. She clearly taught enhanced spirituality through the medium of vegetarianism.
I just found it all so interesting. I'd love to hear your reactions to Corson's comments.
Post Number: 59
|Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 5:12 pm: || |
The adventist argue the fact that God couldn't permit them to eat any food, because they have only two exemplares from unclean animals, and to eat one of them means the extinction of species. What they miss is the fact that the animals, in 200 days in the ark have plenty of time to duplicate.
Post Number: 163
|Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 7:37 pm: || |
I will listen to this later since I'm busy now. But I read this and it brought back some memories.
When I was looking into the religion, I would go to a local ABC store and buy food and browse some of the books. I remember seeing a book showing how scientifically the meat eating animals mouths were made differently than ours to rip apart meat. I also remember a graphic book with mens hands in the guts of pigs and the theme of the book was telling of how unclean it was and there were bible verses next to the unclean remarks.
In fact, I was taught by the adventists that vegetarianism scientifically, medically and spiritually made sense. However, the Adventist Church would say the spiritual aspect is the most important. Then you are healthy and they have scientific proof to back it up.
I remember being at a cookout on the beach, many years ago, with a group of adventists. There was a father who was making a big fuss and I didn't know what it was about. Later I learned he was afraid his kid might eat a "real" hot dog that was being cooked on the grill. This was a group of only adventists, and they were by the way, all vegetarian hot dogs. He was really paranoid that his kid was going to be contaminated... I personally never understood people who were that uptight. He must have been adventist longer than me. Eventually all Adventists get a little twitchy.
This is an interesting link. The whole article is interesting, but in the middle the author spoke with an adventist pastor about eating pork... http://www.thebereans.net/sda-drMartin.shtml
Rest this many hours per night for health, rest on this day, eat this, don't eat what is not clean, wear this, don't wear that, do this and don't do that.
Bottom line is we were being controlled by this church. In this church, it is more important that a church leader not eat pork than abuse a child. How many of us have seen this but really didn't see it when it was happening. This is an abusive church. Definately the devils doctrines.
Post Number: 1232
|Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:46 pm: || |
Very interesting remarks. I'll have to listen when I get a chance.
Tonight on 20/20, John Stossel did a report of breaking myths. (like the one that you'll get a cold if you get cold) One of the myths was that we are running out of land to grow food. That one particularly caught my attention as B has repeatedly said (and I've heard it in other vegetarian sources) that because we have to use so much land to feed cattle, there is not enough food to feed people, therefore hunger exists. The report said quite the opposite is true. Though there is starvation in the world, that has more to do with transportation and logistics than with lack of food. In fact, there is so much excess capacity that many lands that used to be farmed have been returned to forests. They also talked about chemicals and the "earth day" activists that have created a bunch of hype about things that don't really exist. He pointed out that celery and broccoli each have a natural "chemical" that when in proper doses cause cancer in lab rats. Does that mean we don't use them? He was specifically using that example to talk about DDT. It used to be widely used and the only scientifically proven harm it did was weaken egg shells of birds. The environmentalists got up in arms claiming all sorts of unfounded ills and now DDT is banned in the US in any quantity. However, malaria is now rampant in Uganda because there is no DDT available to kill the mosquitoes. It is bad politics to sell something abroad we will not use in our own country. Yet, 100 people per hour die from malaria...is that healthier than not using DDT? The Ugandan government doesn't think so. I've listened to B talk about the value of spending extra money to get organic and avoid the chemicals, yet I have yet to hear a single non-biased report that finds any significant residues on vegetables treated with pesticides. It all rolls up into that "health" topic, but it's hard to know who's being honest, and who has a political or philosophical issue that is the real bias behind their agenda.
For Christmas, my step-mother brought a ham. You can imagine the look on B's face when his little son asked for more. At least he sat at the table with us. Usually if Jonathan is eating with us and there is meat on the table, he'll sit in the other room so he doesn't have to watch. Snobbery at it's finest!
Post Number: 3130
|Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:41 pm: || |
Oh, Melissa--I can imagine the ham incident! Part of me wants to laugh; part of me just sighs.
I've also heard that idea that hunger exists because too much land is being used to raise animals instead of crops. And great questions re: DDT and the whole health issue.
Post Number: 31
|Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 7:52 am: || |
I find myself venturing back into the forum every once in awhile when I am in need for some spritual reading. It is so fascinating to read the various threads that pop up on this sight. Great reading indeed.
I wanted to give my two cents worth on the topic of "vegetarianism." I was a member of the SDA church for 15 years, having just recently given my notice to the church asking to be removed from "the books." The reasons for the departure were mainly due to key points that the SDA's hold true but are not substantiated by the Bible. (i.e., 1844, IJ, E White as the spokeperson for "end times,")
My family and I are full vegetarians for a couple of reasons - they have nothing to do with salvation, demons, misguided practices or cultic tendencies. It is simply more healthy, less costly, more humane, and quite honestly, better-tasting.
A key observation; I in no way claim to have all the answers much less any answers with regard to "the new kingdom." Granted, Scripture describes what our new earth will be like and how glorious that sounds! However, can anyone honestly tell me that we would be consuming animals as food in Paradise? This "argument" could be extended to include such "crude" observations as: Will we enjoy a round of golf in heaven? Will we be swimming on the beach - suit or no suit? My point is this...nobody has the answer to these questions but it does sound reasonable that, in order to eat animals in heaven they will first have to be alive and then killed in order to be "served" as food. So, it makes some sense to assume that a vegetarian diet (if indeed we even EAT in heaven) is more logical.
I welcome anyone's thoughts!
Post Number: 346
|Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:14 am: || |
Just because a vegetarian diet was the original diet and it will most likely be the diet after the resurrection, that doesn't make it a problem to eat meat here and now in this world. After all, Jesus ate meat, and it was commanded by God for the Israelites, and specifically the priests, to eat meat as a part of the sacrifices. You couldn't even be a Jew if you were a vegetarian!
Having been a vegetarian for the first 39+ years of my life, and still having an aversion to and great difficulty consuming meat now, I have no agenda to push to allow myself to "enjoy" meat. I'm simply stating the facts. God doesn't have a problem with humans consuming meat during our time on this earth.
I sometimes wonder if changes after sin, and further changes after the flood, made it harder to get a well-balanced diet without meat and that's why we have it as an acceptable part of our diet now. It's very difficult to get a reasonable amout of protein in the diet without meat, and messing with the proper ratios of protein versus carbohydrates (which a vegetarian diet is VERY high in) can wreak havoc on the body.
It seems to me a bigger health issue today is not meat versus no meat, but junk food versus real, nutritious food. And of course, regular exercise.
(Message edited by Raven on December 31, 2005)
Post Number: 347
|Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:28 am: || |
Guess I should have also said that in addition, God didn't have a problem with the holy, sinless Jesus consuming meat, either!
God doesn't have a problem with humans consuming meat during our time on this earth.
Post Number: 165
|Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:31 am: || |
My main reason for eating mostly vegetarian before becoming adventist was for my health. I was raised eating meat in very small portions, my mother did some modeling and was very health conscious. I grew up on a very healthy well balanced diet. When I started in the adventist church 18 years ago, I was happy to learn that the bible supported my desire to become totally vegetarian. I was pleased that they had so many transitional and traditional good tasting meatless products for sale.
I personally think that one can be healthy on a vegetarian diet alone provided it is well balanced and includes variety. I have eaten some of the tastiest fruits and vegetables with no dressing. We do have a tendency in this culture to not appreciate non meat products perhaps because the quality isn't always the best. Some do eat too much meat. Meat is marketed well as are most products in our culture. We cannot deny our culture is market driven. Nobody in America is immune, everyone formulates an opinion from something marketed.
However, in no way is a can of big franks cheaper than a traditional package of hot dogs. Most premade or packaged vegetarian products are quite expensive. I suppose for people who have a lot of time to cook from scratch vegetarian foods, it would be cheaper. But if you are including the labor, it is not.
For humane reasons, perhaps many of us in the forum would eat little or no meat if we had kill the animals ourselves.
In heaven, we don't know. But I would think any fruit or vegetable would taste better than steak and lobster! We will be too full of joy and praise to care!
If there are vegetarians here that want to be vegetarians, there is nothing wrong with that at all. My problem with the adventist church is the bottom line is Ellen White and OT teachings. In the adventist church, whatever reason you have for being vegetarian, humane or health, is secondary to their biblical bottom line message. The SDA church bottom line vegetarian practices are spiritual. I think that is one reason the church aligns itself with other demonic religions. It isn't the only SDA teaching that is demonic.
It is fine to be vegetarian, but not if you think that is what you need to do to be right with God.
You can attend any Sunday church and most people these days wouldn't judge you for being vegetarian. I found that to be especially true in wealthier churches and communities where people are statistically healthier and more educated. Many people today would commend you whereas that wasn't true 20 years ago.
But as the adventist church does, it shows the good things in their practices such as vegetarianism (good health, being humane). They cushion their practices with good things. But there is a bottom line core message and it is not from God. Many people are deceived by it.
Melissa - I remember the cattle feeding land shortage news. I held on to that for a long time as justification to not eat meat.
I will listen to the original message later today.
Post Number: 32
|Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:13 pm: || |
Thanks for the insights people.
Raven, yes, the original diet did not include meat, and, I agree with you that more than likely, our diet in the new earth will also be the same as it is indeed more humane, among other things.
One of my first topics of coversation with The Lord will be on this very subject. It is just something that I have been planted (blessed/cursed) with...heck, I can't even drive by an animal that didn't make it across the road (living in Colo you can imagine what most of those are) and not get bummed-out.
My post had nothing to do with the SDA church, as, the last few years of my potluck visits included good portions of meat. They have definitley softened their stance over the past few decades it seems.
Post Number: 410
|Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 10:52 pm: || |
Wow Eric, where have you been going to church? I was at a local SDA potluck where some well intentioned non-SDA's who had just started attending brought in a platter of steaks. It was made abundantly clear that they had just committed a major faux paus.
I've lived in Cal., Nevada and Ohio and I've never seen meat approved of at a potluck. In fact, I've never seen meat at a SDA potluck.
As for the idea that started this thread---I don't buy it. The Caananites (along with many others) ate meat and engaged in horrific acts of worship to their idols, such as Moloch. The Roman idols actually had meat sacrifices given to them. That was the whole point of controversy that Paul had to address several times in his letters.
So, I don't find demonic activity confined to those who practice a vegetarian diet. I find instead that the main objection is that tying diet into religion is a way of controlling people. That control always leads to problems as the focus is on the external behavior and not on what is in the heart. Folks who major on the externals are not following Christs example...
Post Number: 1234
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 1:20 am: || |
I also think if you have been conditioned for years that meat is somehow "wrong" or "bad", it is difficult to give up all aspects of that "teaching". Those of us who have eaten meat since birth find it's taste "normal", and some meats are better than others. Cooking it is an art. But I continually remind people, people made the first clothes of leaves, God made them of animal skins. GOD himself killed the first animal. I think we get in a risky place when we say we are "too humane" to kill an animal. What does that insinuate about God? He is somehow NOT humane? That sounds like traditional SDA-speak to me...I've just heard it from B too many years to find it coincidental. My mother was raised on a farm where you ate what you killed. They grew things in the garden too, but they were very poor with 7 kids in the family. They even ate the pet rabbits when it came down to it. God gave animals to eat, and regardless about speculation of eternity, where we are today finds no difference between the one who eats and the one who doesn't eat. There are nutrients unavailable naturally in a plant based diet and b12 deficiency, in particular, can cause some nasty results. B12 is only available in animal products, and supplements ... if'n ya think we were meant to take pills instead of get nutrients in "natural" forms.
Just a few thoughts from the non-vegetarian side of the fence.
Post Number: 843
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 3:12 am: || |
Thanks, Melissa. I came from a farming SDA family, and like yours, we raised chickens and we ate the chickens as well as the eggs. We didn't eat that much meat because it was expensive. My dad was inclined to purchase things by the flat and the bushel and the bucket. We ate what he brought home, sometimes to the exclusion of anything else, until that which had been brought home fresh had been either eaten, frozen or canned. We also rarely ate the specially prepared soymeat products that you can purchase at the ABC. They, too, were too expensive. We ate a lot of vegies from the garden, whole grains and oatmeal. We were also diagnosed with iron and B12 deficiencies. Eventually the daily vitamin became as necessary as our meals. I still strongly believe in supplementation. Since I've been diagnosed as anemic a few times I simply don't believe in taking chances anymore. None of this has anything to do with my salvation, though, it's just a matter of good health. Eat the best you can on whatever budget you have to live on, and take your One-A-Day to fill in the holes that might be left.
Post Number: 33
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 7:15 am: || |
People...nowhere in my post did I link slavation with diet. Read my post again! Don't spin it please.
I am talking from a personal perspective, as are you. If you are referring to GOD killing the first animals (and man) as per the flood, you are correct. But this is not precisely my point.
Again, I find it an interesting topic regarding our (potential) diet in the new Kingdom. I find it hard to believe that we will be "killing our own." Having never lived on a farm I find the previous posts interesting. I have known plenty of farmers in my day and I know all about raising animals and then placing them on the dinner table.
THe SDA churches I am referring too were in Idaho and NW Colorado - great farm country. So, yes, they are alive and well re: serving "Leviticus-approved" meats at potlucks.
As far as the B12 deficiencies go, thus far I have dodged that problem as have my two children who have never ate meat. (My 40-year checkup revealed no such health risks, I hope that if I make it to 50 it will be just as positive.) When they are older and choose to try this out they will be more than welcome to. But at this time, it is nowhere to be found in the house...for the simple reason that we do not like the taste.
Again, I appreciate the chance to chat with other beleivers about all sorts of topics. When I came on board yesterday and noticed the word "vegetarian" in a discussion thread I wanted to chime in. But, please be careful when you post and respond as you can sometimes offend those that have intentions that are good.
And what if I were an SDA - your replies could have been taken in a very negative manner - nto Christ-like to a certain degree,
Happy New Year!!!!!!!
Post Number: 411
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 12:46 pm: || |
I think there's some confusion here. The start of the thread was about an article theorizing that man was given meat to eat (after the flood) as a protection against demons. The writer used as a base for his argument his observations of religions that have demonic overtones such as the Hindus--who are also vegetarian.
So, when you see a tie in between religion and diet we aren't pointing a finger at you, Eric. It goes back to the original post. Again, I have no problem with someone wanting to be vegetarian---just don't tell me that the New Testament teaches this as something for Christians to do.
If SDA's are offended by that stance--tough! I don't see any reason to back down and not confront them over a false teaching.
Post Number: 844
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 12:49 pm: || |
Please let me apologize if I've said anything to offend. Particularly where it comes to offending possible SDA's, I have no intention to offend, nor do I feel I need to feel sensitive because of my current menu choices. When I was in academy I lived on the strict vegetarian diet while I was there, but on breaks I couldn't wait to sink my teeth into red meat. My roomate on the other hand was a lifelong vegetarian and was inclined to avoid the eggs and milk that was available at school. It's all a matter of personal choice. I feel that people who choose to eat vegan should supplement their diet because by excluding dairy they have cut off their last source of B12.
If you want to know about the natural diet of the human, put an 18-month-old child in a play pen, add an apple and a bunny. Go away for a little while. When you come back, you will find the child cuddling the bunny and eating the apple.
Humans are omnivours, and we have some characteristics of both vegetarian animals (staying awake for long periods of time) and carnivorous animals (eyes in the front of our faces). Most prey animals have their eyes on either side of their heads which allows them to see all around themselves (for safety). Animals that hunt other animals have biopic vision so they can focus in on what is directly in front. Our teeth are comprised of some cutting teeth, and some grinding teeth. We are an enigma!
HAPPY NEW YEAR
Post Number: 845
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 1:00 pm: || |
I just realized that none of what I've said so far has addressed the original topic which was food + religious activities + demonic possibility = reason for the choices we make about food.
I've experienced evil people who won't touch any food that even hints at animal origins, and I've known evil people who eat meat almost exclusively. I've also known people who made those same choices who were the nicest people you would ever want to know. We are what we eat physically, but our behavior towards one another comes for a source other than food. I think that the devil loves to distract us by insinuating that our personal goodness comes from sources other than connection to Jesus via the Holy Spirit. If he can make food an issue, or clothing an issue, or entertainment an issue he will do so. He doesn't need to get us to worship him in order for us to lose out on eternity with Christ, he only has to get us to take our eyes off of Jesus.
Post Number: 167
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 3:16 pm: || |
I listened to the message and it was very good and biblically correct. It statistically makes sense if we do our homework and look into religions that practice vegetarianism as a spiritual part of their religion.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but typically in our culture, most people like to eat meat because they think it tastes better. I even went to an adventist potluck and watched the meat items disappear much faster than the vegetarian foods.
I also liked what he had to say about capital punishment. He was correct about the fact that if you let 1st degree murder go unpunished, or are light on justice, YOU WILL see 1st degree murder run rampant in society. My husband lived it in another country where it became illegal for ordinary people to possess firearms and the lawless took over (they became the only people with guns). Scary, but a statistical fact.
Injustice is only a result of sin. God is not inhumane, God is just. All His ways are just. Justice is in the His Word, in the Bible. The more sinful society becomes or further from the bible it is, the less justice we see.
If we prayerfully read our bibles and praise Him and ask for the truth, he does make it known.
Also Colleen, thank you for this thread and for this verse. This is just another clear biblical statement contrary to the Adventist teachings/doctrines of demons.
1 Timothy 4
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
Post Number: 541
|Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 3:46 pm: || |
Happy New Year to all! We had an international children's choir sing for our worship service this morning. A former member of our church, now a missionary, brought these children together from several countries. They are all sponsored by Americans for food and clothing in their native countries. It was a very special worship service.
Colleen, the message by Pastor Jon Courson contains excellent thoughts. His online, 2-page document about the Jewish Sabbath is also excellent. Thanks for sharing the link.
Post Number: 1139
|Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:52 pm: || |
As far as eating meat and drinking wine in heaven, I wonder if this text speaks to that in Isaiah 25:6 "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine--the best of meats and the finest of wines."
That sounds really exciting. God has given us just a taste of this in our present world, but just imagine what it will be like in the next world. I can't wait!