| Author | Message | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 853 Registered: 7-2004 |
Over the course of the past several days I've been wondering about this parable. It seemed perfectly clear to me once upon a time. I had to study the SS lesson, and show myself as being willing to keep my lamp full (Bible Study), plus bring along extra oil (was this supposed to be the "lesser light"?) I know the last paragraph makes me sound stupid, but in my recent reading on Revival/Sermons the most pious posters have continually alluded to this parable. It is found in Matthew 25 and reads like this in the NIV: "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. "At midnight the cry rang out. 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir,' they said, 'Open the door for us!' "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." Is the oil wisdom, is it faith, is it truth? All ten are alike in that they are all intent on attending the wedding banquet, but it takes so long that weariness overtakes them and they all sleep. The only difference between the two groups is that one group planned ahead and brought extra oil just in case the amount in their lamps might run low. The others were trusting in the amount in the lamp and didn't bother with encumbering themselves with carrying something extra. The lesson is in the oil, and not even the oil really, but in the quantity of oil. Can anyone give me an answer about the quantity of oil and how it will apply to the coming of Jesus? I did a search, but nothing turned up so it appears that a discussion of the ten virgins has not taken place here, or at least it has not happened for a long while. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 610 Registered: 7-2004 |
Belva, As a SDA I remember thinking that the moral of the story was that the foolish girls weren't "ready". They weren't being good enough at keeping up with their quantity of goodness. So when the groom came along - Jesus coming back - they got left out of the party - Heaven. In my Bible study, though, it has become clear (in different areas of the Bible) that oil represents the Holy Spirit. We now know that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. The difference is in the oil. Those who didn't make use of the oil and those that did. Isn't that the difference in Christians? Those who surrender to the control of the Holy Spirit and those who have to hold on to the reins themselves? Good question...I will enjoy other's insight... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1238 Registered: 7-2003  |
I guess I don't see any symbolism per se with the quantity of oil itself, just the analogy of the story as a whole about keeping watch, being prepared. The end of chapter 24 talks about the inability to know when, and that it will be a surprise, this parable talks about being prepared, and continues on with a parable about talents while the master is away. The point of the whole section of the book is to know you won't know exactly when Christ is going to return, that some will clearly be left behind, that those who are prepared get to heaven (and I take that to mean salvation), and there is a work to be done (talents managed) in the meantime. To read a lot of symbolism into that one parable may be trying to read too much, to me anyway. Sometimes a story is just a story to teach a lesson. I could be way off, of course. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3146 Registered: 12-2003  |
I actually agree with both Dd and Melissa. I don't think we have to see symbolism in the oil to understand the meaning. I also see the oil as perhaps being analogous to growing and deepening in the Lord through living by the Spirit. I see this parable as perhaps related to the parable of the seeds in Matthew 13. Some seeds rooted and apparently flourished but had shallow roots, and when the heat was on, they withered and died. Some grew poorly because they were among the weeds of worldly cares, and they choked and died. I see the foolish virgins as perhaps having had a burst of interest in "coming to Christ" and becoming involved in the life of the "body", but they didn't take their commitment seriously and allow the Holy Spirit to change them and deepen them. They had a superficial "conversion" without a full surrender, and their "lights" went out. (Kind of like that enigmatic passage in Hebrews 6 that discusses those who have tasted the Holy Spirit but reject Christ and are worse off than those who trampled the law in the OT.) When the inevitable reality hits themóJesus is real and He is returningóthey beg their erstwhile "friends" to share their security, their relationship with and confidence in the Lord, their experience of Scriptural groundingóbut of course, these things can't be shared. No matter how much one prepares the lamp, light isn't possible without one's own connection with the Power/Fuelóin this case, the oil. Colleen | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2005 |
This makes me think of a question I have - off and on - depending on my "mood"! But it is a real tough one for me right now. When I look at the parable of the Foolish Virgins, it seems as if the "work" of carrying extra oil was what made the difference between entering or not. Old SDA thinking?! If the oil is the Holy Spirit, then does that mean the Foolish Virgins didn't have that (or enough if it)? And were they only looking with curiosity, while the Wise Virgins were surrendered? How much surrendered - a little, a lot, does it matter? Colleen, you said "I see the foolish virgins as perhaps having had a burst of interest in "coming to Christ" and becoming involved in the life of the "body", but they didn't take their commitment seriously and allow the Holy Spirit to change them and deepen them. They had a superficial "conversion" without a full surrender, and their "lights" went out. Here's my question then. How does one know if their conversion is superficial? Can one partially surrender and then have their "lights" go out? Isn't all that is required for Salvation is to believe? It seems like surrenduring is a process that happens over time, but then does this mean I am "more saved" the more I surrender? I don't think so, but the more I look at this parable the more confused I become! It still seems to say that there is something that I need to do to enter the Wedding Banquet (Heaven). While I believe all I have to "do" is believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, and I know that good works are to follow (not as a requirement for salvation, but as an outgrowth of my growing Christian walk), there are times when I still question whether I REALLY believe, or am just fooling myself - that old habit of doubt! There are days when I find it hard to trust, hard to pray, hard to know that there really is a God. Then there are days when I can see God's leading in my life and I KNOW what I believe. I guess I am really asking "How does one REALLY KNOW that one truely believes in a way that assures Salvation? I know the above is sort of confused and jumbled, but that is where I'm at today! -tisha P.S. I really need prayer for a very trying family situation right now. I feel quite worn down about now and need the Holy Spirit's Guidance and Comfort - especially Comfort! | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 249 Registered: 6-2001  |
I think the point Tisha is we are supposed to live our lives as if we are expecting Jesus to come back at any time. This refutes the people who say "I said a little prayer so now I'm saved and I don't have to worry about it" or those who say "I have plenty of time to get my life on track before I die." You asked "How does one REALLY KNOW that one truely believes in a way that assures Salvation?" I still wonder about that sometimes, but not as much as I did. All I can say is that too takes faith. When I feel doubt, it helps to remind myself of all the ways God has shown Himself in my life, and I have to remember the verse in Phillipians "he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it in you." A work in progress, Hannah | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 854 Registered: 7-2004 |
I know that the SDA's identify especially with this particular parable. The call to piety that preceeded Oct. 22, 1843 & 1944 they refer to as "The Midnight Cry." Before that time all of the Christian churches, both the true, and the so-called Daughters of Babylon, grew weary of waiting and they all fell asleep. All were awakened by the midnight cry. Even so, I don't know what information that the SDA's believe they have that the others don't that it enables them to keep their lamps alight that the others had to go purchase. Okay, that is the SDA interpretation. That is simply another justification for their date setting and sense of superiority. I also agree that the whole string of parables that Jesus told at that one time each are different aspects of the same council, namely to remain prepared for the return of the Master. I like the comparison Dd made, with oil representing the Holy Spirit. The wise won't go anywhere without it, and the foolish are not even aware that they need it, at least not until it is too late to get it. This one parable has always made me think that there is something that I need to do to be saved. The midnight cry represents a spiritual re-awakening, because after all all ten of the virgins went out to meet the bridegroom. Could it be that the ten virgins is a representation of the Christian Church when it was first formed, anxious to see Christ return in their lifetimes, yet they waited and waited and then all fell asleep. Had the bridegroom appeared at that point in time all would have gone in to the banquet. There is something during the tarrying time that separates the wise from the foolish. Perhaps Christ was alluding to the difference between those who were wholely dependent upon the Holy Spirit to help them remain alight through the long wait, and those who were depending upon their own works, or who had come up with a new source of light (Adventism?). I'm not so sure the midnight cry has sounded yet. We are still in the tarrying time. The oil of salvation is not something that you can readily give to another person. They simply are sealed by the Holy Spirit, or they are not. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 724 Registered: 1-2003 |
Windmotion- You stated that some people say..."I have plenty of time to get my life on track before I die." That was the problem with SDAism for me...I felt I had to have my life on track 100% of the time and if I fell off the "narrow" path...I fretted and fretted about getting back on so I wouldn't be lost. Now... I know that salvation is not dependent on ME, but that the Lamb was worthy. I know nothing I did or will ever do will save me...it's all Jesus. So now I rest. Do I fall off the track?...I don't even feel I am on it, once in a while I catch myself not believing...like the Children of Isreal did in the desert...they didn't believe God could get them to the Promised Land and there fore sinned...not believing Jesus can get us to heaven is much like their sin...don't you think? Praise the Lord we have been liberated from "Ping-pong" salvation!!!!!!!!!!!! I can say 100%, right now, I am saved. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 250 Registered: 6-2001 |
Pheeki, when I said that I didn't mean it was Christians who were saying that, rather people who were a little interested in Christianity but don't want to give up their lifestyle, etc. I agree that Christians should not be having the same concern. Clarifyingly, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3151 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tisha, I understand your doubt. No, I don't believe people are a "little saved" or a "lot saved". I do think, though, that some people give an intellectual assent to Jesus without being willing to trust Him and depend on Him alone. They like the idea of salvation; they hedge their bets by "saying a prayer" and then continuing their lives as if they hadn't really done anything. I think the analogy, Tisha, would be marriage. Sometimes people like the idea of marriage, like the idea of "belonging" to someone, like the social opportunities that marriage sometimes catalyzes, etc. They may become "engaged" and maybe even live together for a time, but they're really not willing to commit to being loyal to that other person for the rest of their lives. They never actually surrender their future lives to staying in a relationship with the one they say they love. Even if they "look" married, they're not. Their hearts are held back. They are hedging their bets; what if something more pleasant or attractive comes along? What if commitment to this person becomes demanding or messy or changes my lifestyle? What if I stop holding back and then regret it? People do this with God. To an onlooker, it's hard to tell, sometimes, whether or not a person has really given their heart to God or not. But they know. They know if they're holding back and heding their bets. They know if they desire to belong to Jesus or just desire the "trappings" and the security. That's what I meant by given a mental assent without surrendering the heart. Tisha, someone who WANTS to live for Jesus and serve Him but struggles with life and with one's own fears is different from someone who wants the security and the trappings but is unwilling to walk in truth in his/her own life as God leads and reveals it. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, not God. Our recurring fears about being saved are fears, not reality. If you have committed your life to Jesus, you know it. If you are holding back from commitment, you know that, too. God is greater than our hearts. His Spirit protects our hearts from deception. As Hannah said, trusting Him for our salvation is an act of faith. he wants us believe Him. He has completely saved us, and when we accept Jesus' sacrifice as the payment for our sin and surrender to Him in commitment, the Holy Spirit seals us and brings us to life. You don't need to fear your own fears. Jesus' promises are better than ours, and we can trust Him. He will complete what He began in you, and He will be faithful to you because He IS faithful. Even if we are doubtful or unfaithful, He is still faithful! Colleen | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2006 |
Rev. 19:9-10 "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." This text along with understanding the blessed hope of eternal life which comes from having the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy may be able to shed a little light on the parable of the 10 virgins. The testimony of Jesus is the saving relationship with Jesus and I want to share the fact that I have this saving relationship (our personal testimony). I believe the wise virgins have the Holy Spirit in full measure. I also believe the wise virgins are equipped to share their testimony by the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. The Blessed Assurance we sing about will be fully realized at the 2nd coming. However, it is very important that we understand the word of God (lamp) when it says: 1st John 2:24-28, "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming." The indwelling Holy Spirit gives us the Assurance of Salvation. So many SDA's are missing the "Assurance" due to false teaching and that will come from not having a Testimony of their own because they have "The Spirit of Prophesy" which they believe to be the "truth". Praise God I Love Jesus and The Word of God (Lamp) and The Holy Spirit (OIL) Our teacher and Comforter. He that has began a good work in you will perform it, be confident. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3157 Registered: 12-2003 |
Brian 4, welcome to the forum! We look forward to hearing more from you and to learning more of your story. Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 390 Registered: 10-2001 |
This parable is so packed with info, it is probably my favorite. My own opinion is that the virgins are half Jew and half Gentile and the Gentiles have the Holy Spirit and the Jews don't. I could add so much more but I don't have time right now. | ||
| Mrsbrian3 Registered user Username: Mrsbrian3 Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2005 |
I did a google on the parable and came up with an interesting web site. The link is below. He uses the parable to point to a time after the church is raptured. He says that since the parable talks about the virgins/bridemaids and not the bride, that it can't be referring to the church. There are, of course, many interpretations out there in cyberspace, but I found this one particularly interesting. http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/parables/parable-of-the-ten-virgins Kim | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 725 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hannah...I didn't mean to imply you felt that way...I just have a gut reaction everytime I see a statement that "we can't be sure we are saved, etc." I get that all the time when I debate with SDA's on other forums. It makes me sad because BELIEVING in the One who was sent is what God asked us to do. BELIEVING He can get us to the promised land is faith. Doubting God is sin. It makes me crazy that SDA don't BELIEVE!!! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1141 Registered: 3-2005 |
Brian4, Welcome to FAF, and thanks for some excellent comments. You mentioned the hymn "Blessed Assurance", and how different it is to sing it knowing that it is indeed true as an accomplished fact that we can have now, rather than some vague hope in the future if we can pass the Investigative Judgment. Tisha, I would like to expand some on Colleen's point about assurance of salvation. I agree that the five foolish virgins in the parable represent the pretenders and those who are not truly saved by being born of God from above. These are those who are trying to work their way to heaven in their own power. When we are truly born again, then the Holy Spirit, which I believe represents the oil of the five wise virgins, will be deposited as an absolute guaranty of future salvation for the true believer. Sometimes we have to be careful about forming our theology from parables, and we have to look at what scripture says everywhere. The book of 1 John is very good for someone to test their faith by to see if they are a true believer, and it says over and over that we can know that we are a child of God. I also share your concern over the use of the word "surrender" to describe what it means to be saved. This concern stems from my experience reading SDA literature by people like Morris Venden, who overused this word so much. My frustration, and that expressed by so many others who along with Desmond Ford would ask these people, "what do you mean by surrendering to Jesus? What if I don't surrender enough, then how do I know I am saved? I have actually read SDA literature which says something like this, "Unless you surrender completly to Jesus by giving up all these numbers of banned activities, then you can have no assurance of salvation. Surrender seems like such a subjective term, and it is hard to quantify. I am sure the concept of surrendering to Jesus is scriptural, but I recently did a word search in a Strong's concordance, and could not find the word surrender in the New Testament. We are called by Jesus to be disciples, and to follow Him, and to take up the cross, etc. but no specific command to surrender, but again this could be a synonym for other Biblical language, as I have heard good Bible teachers like John Piper use surrender terminology, and maybe because of my SDA background, I am making too much of this. This topic of the use of certain terminology such as surrender came up recently on a radio talk show hosted by Frank Pastore on KKLA FM in LA. He had a guest on who wrote a book asking the question why more men aren't interested in Christianity. And the author's point was that a lot of hymnody and praise songs appeal much more to women than to men. Also he (rightly or wrongly) attributed a lot of language that is used in preaching as sounding feminine, instead of masculine, and he used the overused term of "surrender" as being a prime example, since surrender was not a term used in the New Testament. Maybe I am just nit-picking, but does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 856 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for the link, Kim. Using strict symbology this explanation makes more sense than anything else I've ever encountered. This interpretaton, however, I would never have been able to accept even a short while ago. Now I'm beginning to wonder. I know one thing, I would have never accepted this interpretation while I was still SDA. | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2005 |
I have been surprised that the SDA-interpretation of this parable seems to be taken out of context, or at least leave out the full setting in its surroundings. Jesus talkes about decipleship in the end of time. How to stand up for the Kingdom is what the passage deals with. The answer, the result of serving the Kingdom, we find in the latter part of Matt 25. Here Jesus tells what the judgement REALLY is about. There is no message about sabbath or sundaylaws, its plain decipleship and serving your next - that is the point. Then how do I have assurance that i'm saved? Well according to this text one is saved by what you did not intend to do as good works! So its all up to Jesus, we can relax and rest in Christ. Yes - there must be a good interpretation about oil = Holy Spirit. He (HS) leads us where he wants us to be... Love each other - and be careful out there... /Dinolf | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3158 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, that's really interesting commentary on "surrender". I totally see your point. You're right; it's a subjective word. The reason that word is meaningful for me is that as an Adventist, I was drowning in "self-denial" and "giving up" and "weeding out sins" and fear over all sorts of things I occasionally did in moments of what I considered "weakness": going to a movie, eating meat just because I felt like it, sampling wine...etc. Now that you mention it, I do remember the word "surrender" in conjunction with Adventist-speak, but as you said, it was in the context of giving up our desires and passions and weaknesses. I was more than happy to give those up...except that I could never get past the feeling of continual struggle. I used to beg God to take those things from meóand He wouldn't! The words I used to recoil from as an Adventist (and I still have a visceral reaction to them from Adventists) were "have a relationship with Jesus." Oh, P-U-L-E-A-S-E, I used to think. I also wanted whatever a "relationship with Jesus" was, but try as hard as I might, I could never figure out how to have what felt like a RELATIONSHIP. I'd give up and self-deny and pray and try--and I still felt distant and dry inside. And frankly, whenever I heard those words, I was pretty sure the people saying them had no more idea than I had what a "relatioinship with Jesus" was. They just did what most confused and struggling Adssventists did: they committed themselves to Jesus over and over again, confessing and promising and begging and praying and deciding that the words "love the Lord your God with all your heart..." were just a metaphor for a conscious commitment that intellectually put you on the right side but emotionally and even spiritually was pretty empty. It was when I finally accepted that the Bible actually said things different from what I learned and faced actually leaving the cocoon of the church that I realized for the first time what it meant to trust God with my life. I quite literally thought I'd probably lose almost everything meaningful to meóbut if I didn't risk losing all that, I would be refusing the light and inner security I was experiencing for the first time as I allowed Scripture to speak to me. I distinctly remember the feeling of free-falling that I had when I realized I had to let go of my grip on my lifeóand allow Jesus to literally be the only "thing" I would cling to. The feeling I experienced was actually a feeling of surrenderóof letting go of my own control over my lifeóof allowing Jesus to be my Savior and Protector. I have no problem talking about salvation without the use of the word "surrender". I just know that I and so many others I knew claimed we had "accepted Jesus"óand some of us, I believe, actually had but hadn't figured out how to experience that reality yet; God had to keep leading us toward it. But others really didn't accept Him. Some I know have gone through the mental assent of "accepting Jesus" and "confessing their sins", etc., and they are SO PROUD of their increasingly rigid dietary observances, hbealth principles, EGW devotionals, etc. So--I totally see what you mean. Surrender is NOT salvation. It's just that for me, I didn't have much of a relationship with Jesus (those trigger words for me!) until I let go of myself. I'd lived my life managing myself so I would not disappoint or embarrass my mom, be misunderstood, appear "wordly", etc. I had to stop managing myself--surrender myself--to Jesus before I could experience His power and love. In spite of my "self-abnegation", I held myself at the center of my heart. I had to surrender myself to allow Jesus to be at the center of my heart. It's probably a semantics problem; I just know that the verbal assent to Jesus just doesn't always mean much. Sometimes, of course, it is a powerful statement; with other people who are good at rationalizing (like I am), it didn't mean much until I "got over myself". Good points, Stan. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1142 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree Colleen that salvation has to be more than an intellectual assent to facts, which unfortunately much of the Christian world believes. The doctrine of easy-believism I am afraid contributes to false assurance about salvation. In other words all you have to do is believe the facts of the gospel and raise your hand or go forward at a crusade, then you can be assured of your eternal security EVEN if nothing in a person's habit pattern or attitude changes! This is not Biblical salvation, and probably explains why so many who come forward at an evangelistic meeting never become truly saved, because they were not truly born of God from above--the literal meaning of being born again. In John 1:13 we are told that salvation is not from our will, but born of God. Salvation is a miracle done on God's timetable and not ours. He changes our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. When we are born again, it is only then that we have the ability to surrender our wills to Him, so that he can work in us according to his good pleasure, and He will bring that work to completion. I suppose trusting might be a better term than surrender, and because of those days of reading so much works-based theology which used surrender, and then my lack of ability to figure out it's meaning just means I personally don't use the word, but I have no problem with the way Piper and yourself uses the word surrender. I don't hear the surrender word in a lot of Reformed literature, except for Piper, but maybe I just haven't noticed it. But I do like the words following Jesus, Christ-follower, trusting in Him alone for salvation, being a disciple etc. Do you know if it is correct that surrender is not used in the New Testament? I just looked thru a Strong's concordance while killing time recently and it was a brief look, so maybe I am wrong about that. Stan |
