| Author | Message | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2005 |
I came across some of EGW's statements on and related to perfectionism. They seem so fanatical. The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. (Steps to Christ, p. 62) Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. (Selected Messages, Book 1, p. 212) Many are deceiving themselves by thinking that the character will be transformed at the coming of Christ, but there will be no conversion of heart at His appearing. Our defects of character must here be repented of, and through the grace of Christ we must overcome them while probation shall last. This is the place for fitting up for the family above. (Adventist Home, p. 319) Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. (Christ's Object Lessons, p. 330) Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. ( Christ's Object Lessons, p. 331) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3199 Registered: 12-2003  |
These statements completely expose the current SDA obfuscation that insists we are saved by "grace" and then sanctified by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, today's common explanation sound good "as is". But the quotes above, Pigeonite, explain what the current rhetoric REALLY means. Thanks for reminding us all why we had to examine Adventism and walk away from its teachings into the gospel of Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2004 |
Ah yes, all we have to do is become perfect. In Phil. 3, Paul claimed that he was blameless under the Law. And he meant the WHOLE LAW, not just the TEN. He also claimed to be the chief of sinners. What? Can it be that a person can keep the law perfectly and still be a sinner? One of Adventism's major blind spots is the misunderstanding of what it means to be a sinner. Sin is not in the "doing". Sin is in the "being". SDA's pay lip service to "being a sinner", but I don't think that most really grasp it. Why else the emphasis on do, do, and don't, don't. In our "being" we are sinners. And I believe that the Bible shows that we will continue to "be" sinners until we are with Christ, either at death or His coming. (I haven't had time to participate recently, but hopefully I can get back on board) Grace to all, Dane | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 618 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome back, Dane. Question for Pigeonite: Did you get those quotes from a recently "updated" version of Steps to Christ? I am wondering if the newer editions have these quotes in them? Just thinking... Denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3205 Registered: 12-2003 |
It is good to see you back, Dane. Colleen | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 143 Registered: 3-2005 |
Those quotes are the kinds of torture chambers that have haunted my mom for so many years. She is so not free. She tries to put together the concept of Christ our Righteous, and EGW's bar of impossible expectations, but it's clear from her life she has not been able to connect the dots. That's because she's like me and everyone else I know... the more I try, the worse it gets. PRAISE BE TO OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO RESCUED US. Please pray for my mom. And on the other hand, I really believe my other family and friends do understand their sin condition but choose to explain away or ignore or rebel against teachings like that, and are really much more free... although rebellion is no form of freedom... I don't know, they just seem more at peace then the other end of the spectrum. Lisa Lisa | ||
| Pigeonite Registered user Username: Pigeonite Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2005 |
Answer for Dd: I obtained them straight from EGW's writings from ellenwhite.com. I don't know what Steps of Christ edition it is. I have searched a little more and found dozens of quotes that seem to say the same thing again and again, like this one: God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. (Acts Apostles, p. 531) One friend of mine, who is Adventist, seem to think that quotes like these are only counseling us to keep trying to overcome our faults, and that EGW isn't saying that we need to try and reach a sinless state. On the contrary, I was taught growing up that we need to strive for this perfected state because one day the door of probation will close and there won't be an intercessor to intercede for us. We will have to for a time span maintain our perfected state right before Christ comes back. Was anyone ever taught similar things on how we must try and be perfect? | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, You mentioned that the Adventist veiw is that we are saved through the grace of Jesus and then sanctified by the Spirit. Since that is what we have all been brought up to believe can anyone enlighten me on the role of the Holy Spirit and how sanctification fits into the Christian life? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 866 Registered: 7-2004 |
We were taught, as Adventists, that when Jesus finished his ministrations in the MHP (Investigative Judgment of the Righteous), he would take off his priestly robes (the end of intercession) and prepare to return to earth for his bride. During that time (while he's changing his clothes and getting ready for his journey to earth) all of the living righteous upon this earth must remain perfected until Jesus did, indeed, appear in the heavens to retrieve the righteous living and dead from the earth. This period of time mentioned in Revelation when there will be silence in heaven (all of the residents of heaven will be on their way to earth), given a year for a day, is about the span of a half hour. 24 hours in a day, 52 weeks in a year, the sinless period for God's people would be a little over a week's time. Of course this half hour of silence in heaven could be meant to cover the period of time required for going to earth, and returning from earth, in which case the actual period of time when the Righteous will have to remain sinless prior to Jesus' return would be lessened. Why must doctrines contain all of this hair splitting? Jesus himself said that he would never leave, nor foresake us. Never, in my opinion, means that at no time will I have to stand on my own. New Covenant Christianity does not contain any of this mumbo-jumbo, and we are assured that our sins are covered completely by the righteousness of Christ. The adventists can keep their judgment periods and having to stand alone. Give me Jesus! Belva | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3208 Registered: 12-2003 |
Schasc, Adventists teach that sanctification is becoming able to keep the law with the help of the Holy Spirit after one accepts Jesus. In other words, after accepting Jesus, we now have the Holy Spirit's help to keep the law increasingly perfectly. The main difference from before accepting Jesus is that we have a bit of outside help to make us obedient. The Bible teaches that when we accept Jesus, we are sanctified then by the blood of Christ and by the Holy Spirit. Positionally, in God's eyes, we are sanctified in His sight when we become His (see Acts 20:32, 26:18; Romans 15:16; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Hebrews 10:29). In terms of our lives, we are made holy by yielding to the power of the Holy Spirit and learning to live by the "law of the Spirit" instead of the "law of sin and death" which was powerless to catalyze our perfection because we were hopelessly sinful (see Romans 8:1-4). Behaviorally, we become "sanctified" as we grow in Jesus (1 Thess. 4:3-6) and stop living like sinners. The difference between Adventist teaching, that the Holy Spirit helps us keep the law, and Biblical teaching is this: The Holy Spirit REPLACES the law in our lives. Since the law's purpose was to convict us of sin and actually to increase our sinning because of our awareness of God's expectations and of our growing helplessness to achieve perfection (Romans 7:5-12), we needed something "better" than the law to govern our behavior. Jesus was the answer to that need. He fulfilled the law in every possible way: He kept it perfectly; He became the curse it promised sinners; He experienced the death it dictated; He accomplished in His flesh every single thing the law demanded: righteousness, death for disobedience, perfection, etc. Now, when we accept Jesus, His blood of the eternal covenant washes away our sin, and His death becomes ours; His perfection and righteousness become ours. When we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells us and seals us (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) and we are born again and adopted as His children (John 3:5-6; Romans 8: 13-17). The curse and demands of the law no longer hang over us, and we no longer are subject to its curse and demands for obedience. Jesus' obedience becomes ours. Now, with the Holy Spirit in us and the curse and demands of the law fulfilled in Jesus and no longer applying to us because we are in Him through the new birth, our behavior becomes a result of our learning to live in submission and relationshjip with Jesus through the personal leading and prompting of the Holy Spirit. Yes, our behavior changes, but those changes are not the result of our increasing "victory" over sin according to the demands of the law. Rather, those changes are the result of our new heart, our new desire and power to live to honor God. The Holy Spirit gradually shows us the things we need to yield to Him in order to honor God more fully. Now our behavioral changes are not dependent upon our finding God's expectations in the law and then asking Him to help us overcome. Now God Himself convicts us of things that stand in the way of our intimacy with Him. Different people are convicted of different things. Some are convicted of how they spend their free time; some of their greed; some of trying to "fix" people instead of surrendering them to God and allowing Him to do His work in them; etc. Now God Himself reveals our blind spots to us, and with His eternal power that raised Jesus from the dead, He works new life in us and changes our hearts as we surrender to Him the things He asks us to release. We are already sanctified positionally in Christ when we accept Him. He then begins sanctifying our behavior Himself as a means of softening our hearts and pulling us toward Him instead of allowing us to live in even unwitting self-indulgence. He takes responsibility for these changes in our behavior and attitudes; they are not our "job" to perfect, and He is faithful to complete what He begins in us (Phil. 1:6). Now we obey Jesus as He reveals Himself to us; we no longer obey the law! Sanctification for a Christ-follower is an accomplished fact; our response and obedience to Jesus' relationship with us increases because the Holy Spirit in us works God's resurrection power in us. The law just isn't even part of the equation in any sense. We now have Jesus Himself directing us! Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2004  |
Colleen, I came across the following description of sanctification on the web and agreed heartily with what was said. http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/scaer.htm An excerpt:
| ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3213 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Rick--that's an excellent description! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen and Rick -- you both have such excellent defintions. What a blessing these forums are! A statement (of which there are many like it) that just blows me away is: "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement." Testimonies Vol 5, p 214 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2194 Registered: 3-2004  |
What blasphemy EGW wrote. It is hard for me, now, to know that at one time I believed all that. I am so happy, Jesus was patient with me and drew me to Him. It is awesome how He has worked in my life and in the life of others as He draws us, individually to Him. Thank you God. You are awesome. Diana |
