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Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 217
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 10:35 am: |     |
I have not been in an Adventist church for a few years now.
I completely understand the aversion of most Former Adventists regarding Pentecostals. It is the complete opposite of Adventism. Anyone who is Pentecostal and really knows about what Adventism is, would be shocked to see an Adventist in their church. They know has strong the aversion is.
I have watched Pentecostals young and old raise Jesus high, "Praise the Lord!! Thank you Jesus" - I've heard it over and over again! I never saw an Adventist church raise the roof and lift Jesus like this. Under the veil of Ellen White, it just won't happen. Being a Pentecostal is the opposite of being Adventist. Is this Chaos? Confusion brings Chaos and I haven't yet seen that in the Proclaiming of Jesus!
I don't watch television or TBN, I haven't the time. So I honesty don't know what all of you are watching. I do know that once you add the cameras, the make up and the nice clothes, you do have something less real. And yes, unfortunately our culture does often emulate what they see on television. Television is meant to look real. This is the world we live in.
There are as many sincere Christian believers in the Pentecostal churches as there are in many of our Christ teaching, true Gospel churches. And I believe the Pentecostals to be are a part of the body of Christ. And my husband who is Baptist also agrees. He has had many Pentecostal friends over the years.
Stan, I disagree with your belief that there are a small number of Pentecostals that are sincere Christians. You might change your opinion if you had personal experiences with a number of different Pentecostal churches and believers and were not basing much, if not all of your understanding of Pentecostals on what you are hearing and seeing on television, sermons and other media. Unlike you, I live in a community where there are more Pentacostal Churches than Adventist Churches. Fortunately, not too many people in the community where I live are interested in Adventism.
Some of you here accuse Pentecostals of being corrupt. Nobody can gain wealth without being accussed of this. Personally, what I have seen in my community is a very progressive group that is growing and building large churches at a rate that many other denominations wish they could. Does this make all or most of them corrupt? Growing in the name of Jesus?
I've bought a lot of real estate from a person who many people say is dishonest. But I never had a bad experience with him. In fact, there has been nothing in my experience that tells me he is dishonest. The people who have told me this are not progressive, they don't make much effort to improve themselves or change themselves. I honestly believe he has been put down because he is the wealthiest person in the neighborhood and people don't like that.
I now want my reality to be in Christ and I will raise Him up. I'm not one for shouting or being very outwardly emotional myself. Adventism sat pretty well with my intellect. But even if I don't shout, my heart screams Jesus is Lord and my lips proclaim that.
I am quite comfortable going to a Pentecostal church and that is likely where I will remain. Unless of course I land in a small town somewhere that only has a small Baptist church.
Mother always said to never discuss religion or politics with dinner guests. We may never agree, but neither do we have to.
Blessings to you all.
Lynne |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 218
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 10:38 am: | |
Dennis,
I agree wholehearedly with you! Salvation is not a goal to be achieved, but rather it is a gift to be received.
Lynne
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Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 219
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 2:42 pm: | |
This is the dictionary definition of Pentecostal:
Of, relating to, or being any of various Christian religious congregations whose members seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit, in emulation of the Apostles at Pentecost.
Dennis - Yes, it takes a lot of courage to also disagree with people who think they are speaking the truth. Many in the SDA church always have the last word and tell the "truth" as they see it.
The only truth is in the Word of God, the bible.
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 3:05 pm: | |
Lynne, I thought I was defending your position not disagreeing with you. Did I say that only a few pentecostals are Christians? I was only talking about the "kook" fringe, and I was very specific in naming mames such as Hinn and Jakes who I don't believe are true Christians. My comments did not apply to the more main stream charismatics who are Christians. If anyone can get Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, there is an excellent section on the gifts for today which are credible.
I do have to say I personally am closer to MacArthur's views than Grudem's. I concur with Dennis about the pre-trib eschatology as being unBiblical.
I always have to ask the charismatics the question though, about what is the real purpose of speaking audible tongues which sound like gibberish in church? We now have the completed canon of scripture, (which the Corinthians didn't have), and the clear word of scripture is so much more edifying than jibberish. And if someone interprets the tongue, how do we really know it is from God? We know that the Word of God is true.
Lynne, this is why so many former SDAs are afraid of pentecostalism. Speaking for myself, I was fooled once by a so-called charismatic gift, and I pray that I won't be fooled again, and it is unlikely if I just stick to scripture. It is no accident that the book of Revelation was placed last in the canon. Rev. 22:18,19 "If anyone adds to the words of this book..." SDAs added to it. Similarly the pentecostals on TBN are adding to the book. But again, Lynne, I am not attacking all or even most pentecostals as unchristian.
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3240
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 3:51 pm: | |
J. I Packer wrote a great book in the early 80's (it's still available) called "Keep In Step with the Spirit". He did a close study on the growing charismatic influence in evangelical Christianity. (He did not focus on historic and traditional Pentecostalism per se.) I'm drastically summarizing his really excellent and even-handed observations and evaluations here, but he concluded, essentially, that charismatic Christians are true gospel-believing Christian. He cited (at that time) the dryness of the majority of mainstream Christian churches and saw that the more charismatic churches were bringing personal involvement to the gospel.
His conclusion was that they were discovering something Christianity historically had but had lost to a great degree: life, energy, personal invovlement, and active relationships with Jesus. On the flip side, though, he said he believed they were weak on doctrine.
When I read the book a couple or so years ago, I was aware that the Christian landscape looks much different now than it did when he wrote the book probably because of the influence of the charismatics. Congregational, Bible-teaching churches with praise services and people actively involved in worshiping and honoring God are far more common than they were 20 or 25 years ago.
That being said, I have two observations. First, when people are weak on doctrine, they are not grounded in God's word. In the long run, that lack of grounding will cause people to get off track and focus on peripheral issues instead of keeping Jesus and the cross central. When people focus on and seek after the Holy Spirit, their eyes are literally averted from the core of the gospel. Paul said his pledge was to preach Christ and Him crucified.
Christians have never been instructed to make the Holy Spirit the focus of their worship and teaching. Rather, they are to live by the Spirit and learn from Him and be empowered by Him--but His primary job, according to Jesus, is to teach the truth about Jesus! We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit to bring our spirits to life and to seal our position in Christ. He makes Jesus real and causes the words of Scripture to live in us.
Second, our pastor, who is frankly far from being a charismatic but is deeply grounded in Scripture and has a palpable love of Jesus, has a personal policy regarding the local ministerial associations. Intellectually and academically, Gary probably more closely resembles the typical Episocaplian, Presbyterian, or other mainline theologian. In his dedication to the gospel, his honoring of the inerrant Scriptures, and his belief in the centrality of the Jesus and his death and resurrection, he more closely resembles the doctrinal convictions of the charismatic/pentecostal preachers in this area. Mind you, he's NOT charismatic, but he honors Jesus and His word.
His wife told the women's Bible study leaders one evening that because of the liberal views among the mainline churches regarding Scripture and the gospel, Gary "won't pray" with those pastors as a member of their local ministerial society. Instead, he is a member of the ministerial society that is mostly Hispanic and African-American because he agrees with their honoring of Jesus and the inerrant word of God.
A few years ago on the national day of prayer, that more charismatic ministerial society hosted a public prayer meeting at the Redlands Bowl in the evening. Gary gave the opening prayer and shared the platform with largely charismatic pastors. Their style was completely unlike Gary's--but their loyalty to the real Jesus and His real word bonded them, and they are held together by the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:3) because of their mutual dedication to the "one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all, through all, and in all" (Ephesians 4:4-5).
I find Gary's "line in the sand" (the centrality of Christ and the cross and the inerrancy of Scripture) and his personal example to be very instructive.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 5:01 pm: | |
I listened to Hank Hanegraaf's show today, and toward the end, I was just a little shocked that he declared that the current president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Ted Haggard, endorses books by "Oneness Pentecostals", (who have been denounced as a cult by Lynne's denomination Assembly of God), and Mr. Haggard endorses the false prophet Benny Hinn. Hanegraaf went on to document all the ridiculous false prophecies Hinn has made.(I am sorry folks, Ellen White never was THIS bad.) Also T.D. Jakes is from this modalist heretical persuasion as well. This reiterates my point made earlier in this thread, that the evangelical church is in BIG-TIME trouble with this man as president of the NAE, and with false teachers such as T.D. Jakes and Joel Osteen listed as number one and number two respectively as the most influential "Christians" in the USA.
However, Jesus promised that even though there would be all kinds of wolves in sheep's clothing (such as the men listed above), but His promise remains that His true church will survive. He said if it were possible, these wolves would deceive the very elect, but the fact is, the elect will be preserved. Jesus said "the gates of hell would not prevail" against His church.
Stan |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 221
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 5:26 pm: | |
Stan, Sorry that I misunderstood you.
There is a difference in people speaking in tongues for edification amongst believers only or alone and those who have the gift of tongues. It is in that study I posted earlier about praying in the spirit. You can't know what many people believe regarding tongues if you only look at one view. I have looked at both sides.
When you ask if you know when it is true, when someone speaks in tongues, if it isn't from Satan. One might ask that about your experience with the Holy Spirit. You know that personal feeling you have is not of Satan. If you have a sense about something not being right, your feelings are probably correct. With the Holy Spirit living in you, it will convict you and you will know. If it doesn't look real to you, it probably isn't.
When I go to church on Sunday, most of the people in this church are not saved. The service has music and a sermon all proclaiming Jesus. There are people who speak in tongues that go there, but I rarely hear it on Sunday. Sometimes a little.
That is where there is a problem with many Pentecostal Churches today. Unbelievers will go into the church and think people are crazy, speaking in tongues as stated in Acts. It is definately for believers. As a believer, I personally feel edification when others speak in tongues in prayer groups. From my experience and what I have read in the bible and studied about tongues, I don't see anything wrong with tongues or praising Jesus. Doing this is not in any way adding to the bible. But like I said before, I don't watch those shows that you speak of, so I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting about adding to the bible specifically. I know the SDAs add to the bible.
I do however have a problem with anyone who might be showy or flashy in any way in the name of Christ in a false sort of way.
Colleen, the church I attend does not focus on the Holy Spirit, they proclaim Christ. A natural result of this is the experience of the Holy Spirit. If we believe in the Trinity, there would be no problem with including the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit goes together with God and Jesus. They are one.
I also have yet to see a weakness in their doctrine (I'm going to an Assembly of God Church). Unless you call the Pre-Trib Eschatology an issue. There are people in the church that I attend that believe it and some who don't.
On the flip side, as I said before. Adventism has arrogantly proclaimed their knowledge in scripture as being superior because of their intense studies that make the bible truths more of a puzzle to be unscrambled.
I agree that many Pentecostal churches are properly grounded in the truth. I'm sure there are many out there that are not perfect as well. I know I'm not going to a perfect church with perfect people who have memorized most of the scripture in the bible. But you are correct about the core being in the truth of Jesus. I grateful to be blessed with a church that does proclaim Him.
There are many Pentecostal denominations. Here is a unbias look at the many different groups with many links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3245
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 5:42 pm: | |
Lynne, I believe that what Packer meant (at least what I understood him to mean when I read his book) was the the general weakness of the charismatic movement was a tendency not to spend great amounts of time in serious Bible study. He did not mean that they were heretical--just that in general (not specifically in individual lives) charismatics were more focussed on prayer and experience than on literal hands-on, in-depth Bible study.
I have no doubt that your church does proclaim Jesus--and as I suggested in my account of our pastor--I am sure many do. Certainly your own witness tells us that you know and honor Jesus!
Stan, what an amazing thing you heard from Hank Hanagraaf today. If it is true that Ted Haggard endorses Oneness Pentecostal books, that is really a shocking and unsettling fact.
I am increasingly convinced that the world is polarizing spiritually. I guess we've all known that even people who claim to be Christians would eventually have to consciously choose to embrace the true gospel at the cost of being thought "intolerant". It's still a bit horrifying to see deception creeping into the Christian community in ways that seem innocuous.
I pray that God will protect meóprotect us allófrom deception. I pray that we will honor Him and that we will be faithful no matter the cost.
Colleen
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 6:02 pm: | |
The specific book that Hanegraaf referred to that Haggard endorsed is "The Godchasers" by Tom Tenney, who is a oneness pentecostal. You can take your choice of what is worse, endorsing oneness, or endorsing Benny Hinn--Wow!
Stan |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2214
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 6:17 pm: | |
Does not sound like either is a good choice.
Diana |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 225
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 7:11 pm: | |
Colleen,
I didn't think you meant heretical. Sounds good to me. I also think that on the flip side some groups have a tendency to over analyze the bible and not spend enough time in prayer. Praying in the spirit, which separates Pentecostals from others, has definately been a deeper experience for me than when I sometimes just pray intellectually. Both ways are Holy Spirit driven when He lives in us. I believe the guilding light of the Holy Spirit offers me direction in doing the will of God, and the deeper I go, the better I feel. As you know, the Holy Spirit living inside you is undeniable.
Perhaps many Pentecostal Pastors have read the book by Packer since it has been around for a while. I've been going to a very good bible study every week at my church.
Lynne
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1202
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 8:04 pm: | |
Speaking of J.I. Packer. I am currently re-reading his book "Knowing God". I would call this book a must read!
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3248
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 9:45 pm: | |
I agree, Stan--that was one of the landmark books in my life. And Lynne, you're right about the people who over-analyze without submitting themselves to the power of the Word.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:15 am: | |
Speaking of John MacArthur. He never stays away from controversy, and is a true prophetic voice identifying the weaknesses of the current evangelical church. His lesson on his radio program today www.gty.org was on the parable of the sower, and the four different kinds of soil that the seed fell on. His point was that the only group that would be true Christians is the soil that produced the fruit. But the emphasis needs to be placed on the soil, which only God can prepare to receive the word of the gospel. He then went on to say at the end of his program, that most of the emphasis today in the church is focused on the sower, instead of on the Word and the soil. He said that the market-driven, or seeker sensitive emphasis today is a "serious deception", because the rationale of some of these teachers is "if you are just clever enough in your presentation, then just about anybody will accept Christ."
MacArthur has written a very controversial book on this topic called "Ashamed of the Gospel" which illustrates how the modern church is paralleling the example of the British evangelical church that Charles Spurgeon fought so hard against. There is an excellent book review here that is interesting www.challies.com/archives/001611.php
Stan |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 121
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:27 pm: | |
Stan,
Please do not take what I have to say as being overly critical of your comment. I too agree that there is a tendency in "seeker sensitive" churches to dilute the gospel.
That being said, I think we need to be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. From what I've read over the past few years, I get the impression that some of these churches have discovered how to be "seeker sensitive" and still present the straight message.
For example, the church we attend is staffed by men who are on fire for the gospel. The sermons are very gospel oriented and a high emphasis is placed on exhorting people to follow Jesus in every aspect of their life.
I've slowly come to understand that you can have a church that stays true to the authentic gospel and yet present it in a modern format. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted what you are saying.
Dane |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1213
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 5:30 pm: | |
Dane,
I don't think even MacArthur is against what you are talking about. His point is that many seeker sensitive churches have stopped doing deep verse by verse Bible study so as not to drive away or turn off unbelievers. There is nothing wrong with welcoming people and having good Christ-honoring contemporary music.
Here is what John MacArthur is concerned about, as here is an excerpt from one of his books, www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/pragmatism.htm
Stan |
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