| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2215 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am always amazed at how God leads me and who He has me meet. I want to tell you what happened today at work. I work at a hospital. One of the women who works in the Medical Records office, I think, arrives at work the same time I do. So we exchange greetings, but do not say much else. This morning I was on the Med-surg ward and she was there also. She commented on my jewelry and I commented on hers. Then I said, "It is amazing how much I like jewelry, because the church I came from almost made it a salvation issue". So my friend asked what church it was and I replied, "Seventh day Adventist". The look on her face got to me as she told me her son is an Adventist minister in PA. He is pastor of 3 churches there. She was raised Baptist and raised her son in that church. She did not give me the details of how her son got caught up in Adventism, but he did. He went to an SDA college-South..something. He married an Adventist girl. My friend and her husband have researched Adventist, even going to an Amazing Facts seminar (she does not like D. Batchelor). She completed the whole seminar so she would know what SDAs believe. She is familiar with Dale Ratzlaff, Mike Martin. She and her husband have bought many books written by former SDAs. I told her about this forum and invited her to come here and read what we have to say. She does not have a computer at home. Her husband does his research on the computer he has at work. I told her about G. Taylor's book and Walter Rae's book. She will have her husband look them up. I am the first and only former SDA she has met. I told her I would tell my friends on this forum and ask all of you to pray for her son. She really liked that. We talked about 20 minutes and then had to go about our work. As we parted I told her that God arranged for us to meet. As always, I am in awe of God when He arranges a meeting for me. I am very thankful when He does that. So, my friends, please remember my friend's son in your prayers. I know we pray for all SDAs, but be specific about the son of Diana's friend who is an SDA minister. God knows who he is. She was asking me how one gets to an Adventist. All I could tell her was lots of prayer and love them. I told her that when we point out where they are in error, they only get more adamant about what they believe and get more defensive. She has seen that. She has many people praying for her son. So, thanks for all your prayers. Our God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3254 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, my goodness, Diana--what a story! Praying for her son... Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 227 Registered: 10-2005 |
Diana, I will pray for him also. It makes me think a bit about my husband, a Baptist, who married me, an Adventist. He went with me to many bible studies and he went with me to church. But rarely did either of us go to his Baptist churches and he never took me to any of the Baptist bible studies. We both stopped going to church for many years. Both of us were sincere believers when we got married. The other evening I was pondering the thought that Adventism puts something in people, even if they never fall for it. For my husband to not think Adventism was a deception for so long while living in and around it has shown both of us recently that he too was deceived in some ways. As I've heard in this forum, there is something deep and subtle about the religion. I think it can only be removed over time through truthfulness. But it can be sometimes difficult to uncover what you don't is there and where it is buried. I thank Jesus that He can heal everyone influenced by these Satanic forces. Jesus is healing me and I am growing and changing every day. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3255 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lynne, insightful post. I can see from your posts already that Jesus is realing you. You are so right that truthfulness is involved in being set free from the bondage. Colleen | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 138 Registered: 12-2004 |
Diana, I also work in a hospital. Yesterday, I wandered into the materials department and the manager asked me (we have had conversations about my journey out of Adventism) how after 50 years of being in one religion I could just leave. My testimony was that when you decide to trust the Word of God things become clear. You canít allow others to interpret it for you or accept spiritual gymnastics to "prove" your spiritual point. Trust God to be good and allow the Spirit to lead, Amazing things happen. The materials manager and her husband are currently in a church that has had dual memberships in subgroups of this church. They would rather stay in the more conservative branch, but the more liberal is going to predominate and they are at a "crisis of faith" and have to make a decision whether to remain in this church. They don't agree with the more liberal bent. They have been talking with the pastor of my church (a CMA) with a pastor who had left a denomination over doctrinal issues. Having him as a friend, pastor, and spiritual mentor has been wonderful. He got here just before my wife and I began to question and begin our journey out. He understood where we were coming from (leaving a church) and would many times just listen as we would describe the oppressing legalism that we had been mired in all our life. Now I am able to testify how the Holy Spirit has led me in my journey from one legalistic church and into grace. I believe that God prepared me to be able to provide a bit of comfort and reassurance to others. You know, I guess that is what this forum is for, not necessarily to point out and educate others on what the doctrinal errors of the Adventist Church are, although that is important. The greatest benefit of this forum is providing a safe place to honest folk who are questioning and want to test their ideas. Goldenbear | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2222 Registered: 3-2004 |
Goldenbear, It is amazing how God arranges for us to meet up with people and arranges what He wants said/done. And yes this is a safe place for honest folk who are questioning and want to test their ideas. It is also a place where one, in a kind, loving manner, can point out the doctrinal errors of the Adventist church. If these things are not pointed out, some people will never know. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2004 |
Diana, As I was making my rounds at the hospital yesterday I ran into a good friend who used to attend the same SDA church I did for many years. He jokingly asked me how it felt to be an "ex-cult member". I said,"word sure travels fast". He stated he has struggled with Adventism's peculiarities for a long time and was also no longer attending,and like the rest of us continues to deal with the strong family connections. A family member recently dubbed this the Hotel California mentality of Adventism, "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave." I am running into more and more SDA members who are willing to, needing to, and eagerly wanting to ask serious questions about Adventism. Many I am speaking to realize there are major theological problems and recognize how cultlike and insular Adventism really is. I want each of you to know that God can, and will use the credibility you built up as an Adventist to further his work 10-fold as a former Adventist. Only formers have the unique ability to see the struggles from both sides of the fence. Let our prayer always be for discretion, tact and patience. Randy | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 230 Registered: 10-2005 |
Randy, It is sometimes difficult for many people to use discretion, tact and patience. I'm glad to hear you say this though, because it always takes me back to how I felt, even so recently as this summer. Just the thought of there being people on the internet talking bad about Adventists or Ellen White told me they were satanic. Anyone or anything that was against Adventism was satanic to me for many years. Through nothing but a miracle, the truth reached me because of Jesus. And He has been patient. I purchased the DVD Seventh-day Adventism, the Spirit Behind the Church about a month ago. Although it is completely truthful and the end has stuck in my head, Bible Only. I really wouldn't want to share it with anyone that doesn't know about Adventism merely because of the way it presents Ellen White as being silly. I prefer something more actual factual per se. I have preferred to share what Colleen wrote. "Adventism: A Thumbnail Sketch" in the Stories area of this website. In no way am I being critical of Mark Martin (that is what brought me here). But I did feel that the DVD would makes Adventists out to be fools by pointing out how silly Ellen White was. Perhaps it is true, but most Adventists don't want to feel like they are being made out to be complete fools, as was the tone of the DVD I felt. It seemed a bit like mockery to me. I bumped into the website of the Adventist church and what they had to say about this the errors that were presented in the video: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/video.html There is no question that the Seventh-day Adventist church cannot answer correctly according to them. I was much more touched by the WCG video. At times, it can be very difficult, if not impossible, to both tell the truth and be sensitive. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3256 Registered: 12-2003 |
Insightful posts above. Randy, I so agree that only formers can clearly see both sides of the fence. Many former Adventists want to "move on" and sort-of forget the Adventist part of their lives. I totally understand the "moving on" part, but our past is part of who we are, and it's definitely part of what God redeems. I have a friend (former SDA) who said she just wanted to move on, become involved in a Christian church, and leave the Adventist past behind. She and her husband have indeed become involved in a Christian church--but, she says, God keeps bringing people into her life who are or have Adventist connections, and she is able to talk to them. She laughingly admitted that God seems to be not letting her forget the past but is using it for truth's sake. I see my relationship to my Adventist past much like my being a stepmom. Early in our marriage, I truly used to fantasize about moving somewhere where no one knew us and establishing a life where no one knew the boys were my step-sons. After all, they easily could pass for my biological children (a gift from God, I tell people when they say the boys look like me!). Clearly, though, such a move was only a dream, and on a practical level, it would break down. Further, as I thought about the implications, I realized that I'd really be covering up part of the truth about us. Today I have no problem talking about being a step-mom. God has redeemed that relationship, and the incidental fact of biology has nothing to do with our relationship. They are mine, and I am theirs. God has done a similar thing with my Adventist past. I wouldn't be who I am or have such a passion for honoring the word of God and protecting and promoting the gospel without my Adventist past. God has definitely taught me and revealed Himself in ways that would have been irrelevant to me if not for the fact of my Adventism. I thank Him for the fact that I was Adventist and that He called me out of it to Himself! Colleen | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2005 |
Sometimes do you think that there is a time and a place to speak? I know as we are making our exit,my inlaws who have been away from God for a very long time are making thier way back into the church,so Im hesitant to make a big deal about my journey because I dont want to be a stumbling block to them. we dont live close by so they have some idea that we are attending another church,but I think they are afraid to ask cause they dont want to really know.Am I wrong?? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 565 Registered: 4-2000  |
THE SPIRIT BEHIND THE CHURCH My wife and I watched "The Spirit Behind the Church" video several years ago (when we were still Adventists). We really liked the video; however, at the time, we were surprised to learn that we didn't really believe in hell. We felt that it was "too bad that they talked about death and hell. Otherwise, the video is excellent." Now we are grateful that they presented the full spectrum of SDA beliefs in the way they did. It really made us think about why we don't believe in the biblical view of death and the aferlife. So, what seemed liked an unfortunate, flawed segment in the video, we now praise God for revealing his truth about eternal hell and his passionate abhorrence of evil. Indeed, we can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His wrath. With the quick fix of annihilationism, Adventism drastically minimizes the consequences of living a profane life. Undoubtedly, it is Satan's favorite view of hell-- depicting the end of punishment. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2004 |
Has anyone seriously looked at the White Estate responses to Spirit behind the church? I quickly scanned them and of course did not look at all the sources that they give, but they seemed to answer things. That is what is so confusing about all of this for me. Each time I read something posted by one side or the other it always seems to make sense. Both sides will quote scripture and I dont seem to be able to see through the errors...............help! | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 231 Registered: 10-2005 |
Schasc, Yes, I seriously looked at it, that is why I posted it. Most of what I saw were references to Ellen White. The truth they are speaking of here is from Ellen White, her visions, and her bible theology. I personally have closed myself off from that deception. For me, it is no longer truth. Half truths always cover lies. Just because the church always has an answer for everything, it doesn't make them right. I know better now, I'll reference the bible instead. The writings of Ellen White did not awaken the Holy Spirit in me as does the bible. Just keep reading your bible and sincerely pray about it and you will be lead to the truth. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3261 Registered: 12-2003 |
Schasc--I agree with Lynne that the best thing you can do is pray that God will teach you truth and anchor yourself in God's word. The more time I spend studying the Bible, the more clearly I see the truth about everything I ever questioned in Adventism. Many years ago I had a student who, I learned later, had grown up in a very dark situation inside an Adventist church with decidely occultic overtones. She has since become a Christian. I will never forget her saying to me, "You don't discover the truth about deception by studying the deception. You learn the truth about it by studying the Bible." Truly the Bible is our lamp. God reveals Himself through it. Your questions and confusion about Ellen truly will resolve itself as you study the Bible. Once you know certain facts (i.e. her internal contradictions, "progressive revelation" that led from untruth to supposed truth, et.) the Bible will completely clarify reality to you. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Jtree Registered user Username: Jtree Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2000 |
Here is a good read.. a reply to SDA video Criticism website. http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/pickle.html | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 566 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jtree, Thanks for that excellent link. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1212 Registered: 3-2005 |
Since Diana entitled this thread "in awe of God", I would like to post an article here that I think is excellent on the Sovereignty of God, and how he is in control of all events of the universe. I need to read an article like this once in awhile to remind me who is in control. www.reformationtheology.com/2006/01/christian_-_rest_in_gods_sover.php Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3266 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great link, Jtree. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2004 |
Stan, it wasn't until I really dug into the doctrine of God's Sovereignty that I began to get a comprehensive grasp of the gospel. I fully believe that unless a Christian accepts God as Absolute Sovreign that he/she will be subject to being led astray. SDA theology portrays God as less than Sovreign and from there springs a host of heretical ideas. Dane | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 567 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, The link you provided contains the following gem: "This is the Christian's source of comfort. Nothing in our lives is wasted...no trial, no experience, no grief, no misunderstanding, no hardship, no scorn, no betrayal, no injury, no loss, no scandal, no injustice, no deceit..no event takes place in our lives that God will not work for our good." And all of God's people said, "AMEN." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1218 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Dennis for finding the paragraph that so clearly sums it all up. Living the Christian life is so much easier if we believe that. It is my sinful nature and pride that keeps me from fully appreciating this great truth. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 568 Registered: 4-2000 |
God is not a gambler who is merely dependent upon our fallen, whimsical nature. Fallen humanity is completely at the mercy of God. Certainly, God is not at the mercy of sinful man with his erratic responses and so-called "neutral freewill." Indeed, God is sovereign and in control of the events in this world. Remember how we were taught in Adventism that Jesus could have failed his mission to save us? Nothing could be farther from the truth! In awe of Calvary, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2234 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, I do remember that comment"Jesus could have failed his mission to save us", now that you mention it. EGW was giving us power over God, as if He was there to do our will. WHAT BLASPHEMY!!! I am so thankful that God is sovereign over all and is in control of all the events in this world. Thank you God for being in charge of all events in this world. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3273 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, thanks for the link. On Feb. 3 in our monthly Systematic Theology class, we'll be going over Grudem's chapter on election. I so appreciated Elizabeth's comment last night in her leaders' session, "If you don't understand this doctrine, you don't understand salavation." I really believe she is right. As Jess said some weeks ago, God's sovereignty has changed my life and my worldview more than anything besides learning I am securely saved in Jesus. He is our all-in-all. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1221 Registered: 3-2005 |
AMEN!!! Stan | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 111 Registered: 1-2005  |
Schasc, I know I'm behind times with this thread, but I just wanted to 2nd Colleen's comment: "Truly the Bible is our lamp. God reveals Himself through it. Your questions and confusion about Ellen truly will resolve itself as you study the Bible. " It is when I took off the rose colored EGW glasses and read the Bible alone - and took it at face value - that I began to see things clearly. It was almost a literal, tangible "laser surgery" on my spiritual eyes! I started with one single Bible truth - (for me it was the subject of Who is the scapegoat of Leviticus 16.) It only took ONE discovery of deception by EGW for me to throw it all out! As I read more and more of the Bible alone- it was like reading a NEW book!! Everything clicked and fell into place for me. I was amazed that I hadn't seen it before. So much more of the Bible made sense to me. I would just advise any person who is searching, to boil the "truth" down to a single solid Rock of truth on which to base everything else. I believe that core truth to be that God sent Himself to this earth in Jesus to pay the penalty for my sins -and His death and resurrection have ensured my salvation - my sins are forgiven, past, present and future! What a freeing truth! And such an awe-inspiring one. Then when doubts come your way - when people try and persuade you and make you feel guilty about turning your back on SDA "truths" you can cling to that solid Rock with all your might - use it as an anchor to base all other beliefs on. In that way you can avoid a lot of confusion for yourself. I would challenge any searching SDA to put aside EGW books for one year - and read the Bible with prayer for the Holy Spirit's guidance. It won't be easy - it may shake you to the center of your being - but it is so worth it! Sometimes it is only looking back at the fog of your life that you ever realize you stood blanketed in darkness. One side note: Just recently, my WWVA attending daughter had to answer a Bible assignment question: "Do you believe that your salvation is 100% God? or a 50/50 proposition involving God and yourself?" My daughter wrote that it was 100% God - having to do NOTHING with her. In class, her classmates argued with her - saying that it was 75/25 or 99/1%. She said that she stood her ground and even her best friend got upset with her - but (I'm happy to report this  the teacher told the class that salvation was all about Jesus and nothing about us - He said that instead of it being a matter of us accepting the gift - it was simply a matter of letting go of ourselves and acknowledging that the Gift of Grace was ours! It was wonderful to hear that come from an SDA school teacher! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3290 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lindylou--I so appreciate your comments about the solid Rock of truth: God sent Himself to this earth in Jesus to pay the penalty for my sin. Your advice about leaving Ellen behind and reading Scripture is so important. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2242 Registered: 3-2004 |
Since I have left Adventism behind, all I have read, when it comes to spiritual reading, is the Bible. I just finished reading the NT and now am re reading Galatians. Each time I read the Bible I see something I have never seen before. Thank you God for opening my eyes and mind. Diana |
