| Author | Message | ||
| Buzz Registered user Username: Buzz Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 |
Can I get a little help interpreting Hebrews 4 because at first glance it seems to say the sabbath of the OT is still in place today. Also, an adventist used this as a NT arguement and I wasn't quite able to get my re-buttle words out as I wished. Thanks | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2005 |
Ask said adventist if they have read the SDA commentaries. They rebut it quite nicely I believe. I'll see if I can find the quote of the commentaries. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2005 |
(this is taken from here: http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hebrews4.9.htm) Even the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary understands this point. We find this explanation for Hebrews 4:9 on page 423: Certainly, in writing to Jews, the author of Hebrews would not consider it necessary to prove to them that Sabbathkeeping "remaineth." If the conclusion of the extended argument beginning with ch. 3:7 is that Sabbathkeeping remains for the people of God, it would seem that the writer of Hebrews is guilty of a non sequitur, for the conclusion does not follow logically from the argument. There would have been no point in so labored an effort to persuade the Jews to do what they were already doing -- observing the seventh- day Sabbath.... What relationship a protracted argument designed to prove that Sabbath observance remains an obligation to the Christian church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4 -- the ministry of Christ as our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary -- is obscure indeed. The writer of Hebrews is interested in the spiritual or heavenly meaning of such things as the Sabbath and animal sacrifices, not their literal observances, which are shadows of the true "rest" and sacrifice for sin. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 889 Registered: 7-2004 |
The saddest part of the Adventist theory that this text supports the weekly Sabbath is the fact that Paul (or whoever it was that wrote Hebrews -- let's not quibble about that) uses a word in this text that is used nowhere else in scripture. When talking about the sabbath that remains for the people of God he calls that special sabbath Sabbatismos (Greek). The weekly sabbath is usually referred to as Sabbaton. The difference between Sabbaton and Sabbatismos can be summed up like this if, say, we use the word mother instead of sabbath. Saying Sabbaton is equivalent to saying the word mother, as in "all mammals have a mother." Sabbatismos is equivalent to saying "Mother," as in "Hello Mother, so good to see you." In the first sentence "mother" could be any mother anywhere. In the second sentence "Mother" applied to a singular, unique person known to me as Mother. Do you get the difference? The NIV (sorry, I don't even own a KJV) says it this way: Heb. 4:3-7 -- "Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said: 'So I declare on oath in my anger, They shall never enter my rest.' "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words, 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work (Referring to Gen. 2:2).' And again in the passage above he says, 'They shall never enter my rest (Ps. 95:11).' "It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of the disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David as was said before: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts (Ps. 95:7,8).'" I like the NIV because it doesn't get all involved with using the word "Sabbath," but instead uses the words "rest" and "Today." The word Sabbath truly means rest, but reading it in the NIV you are clearer on the concept that was being pressed to the fore. Paul was telling believers that there remained a singular rest in a day called "Today," which is a singular day. On the day that you accept the completed work of the Savior for your salvation you are living in Today -- 24/7 -- rest from trying to bring about your own salvation by means of works. The first three chapters of Hebrews were a recitation of all of the people and events whereby man was trying to keep the law (works) so that he could have rest (sabbaton). Of the people he mentions, some had the law, some did not, but the list of heros all depended on God by faith, not by works. The others, the ones that God has declared would not enter his rest, were the ones going through the motions of the sanctuary services, holy days, and sabbaths. Therefore, in the text just quoted, the believer enters the rest known as "My Rest." That is Sabbatismos, a singular rest that the believer enters when he accepts the Holy Spirit rebirth. You and I know that that can happen on any day of the week, and at any hour of the day. Furthermore, the believer is looking for a singular day, the one day when we shall meet our Savior face-to-face. The believer is assured that that day will belong to him! I want to live in Today. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2005 |
I have a great blessing from Hebrews 4 because in it God invites us to enter His rest TODAY, when we hear His voice, which can mean any day, anywhere. I question myself; "How can I enter the Sabbath day rest on Monday? I have to wait until Friday evening to enter this rest because this rest is tied to a specific 24 hour period of time, with a very definite begining and end." As adventists we cannot decide when to enter Sabbath rest, is like a blasphemy. I think that the invitation "Let's keeep the sabbath now, let's rest today, let's start the Sabbath with a song, and a prayer" when you talk with an adventist on wendsday will make a good point. Sometimes I use closed questions, which can be answered with yes or no. "Can you begin to keep the sabbath in the middle of the week?" was a question which no adventist can answer with "yes, I can", because for him to keep the sabbath means to enter the rest on friday evening at the sunset. Also these questions can have the opposite effect. Because you put them (adventist) in a corner and tied with their own ideas, they will be more upset. The only result can be that you shut them up for a while. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 735 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hebrews 3 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Pheeki says: Here we see the Children of Isreal (COI)had heard something? What? (We find out a little later what they heard!) They had also seen with their eyes great miracles and still did not believe God could get them to the promised land...they were full of unbelief like many are today...God calls this a sin! Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Pheeki says: We have already established that the COI were offered rest in Christ getting them to the promised land (for us heaven) and they failed to believe so...the next chapter tells us that...there remains a Sabbath-rest for the people of God Hebrews 4 A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God 1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Pheeki says: Note the operative word here...what was preached to them? The Gospel...they were told that they would make it to the promised land (for us heaven) if they believed the Gospel. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, Pheeki says: Did you get that? We who believe the Gospel have already entered into a Sabbath type rest...because we believe Jesus did everything to get us to heaven...we enter the minute we believe!! just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." Pheeki says: The COI were resting alright...they observed the Sabbath, something put in place to teach them about Christ...but they didn't get it because their hearts were stoney! Thus the laws were put on stone...God didn't have to put them on stone...he could have put them on skins, paper whatever...He made stoney laws for stoney hearts! 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, Pheeki says: Today. Not next Sabbath, today!!!! The minute you believe you enter His rest! when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. Pheeki says: Understand? This isn't about keeping a day as the SDA would have us believe...this isn't a proof text for Sabbath worship...it's about believing the GOSPEL! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3250 Registered: 12-2003  |
Right, Pheeki! Colleen | ||
| Buzz Registered user Username: Buzz Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks for the assistance. I appreciate the answers. I find myself finding it very difficult to explain God's rest to any adventist family as they are so literal and legalistic. They say I will never convince them that the sabbath of Isreal is no longer in place due to the "hallowed it" part of Genesis 2:2 and Exodus 20:8. I just say John 3:16 back to them. Oh well. | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2005 |
BEAUTIFUL PHEEKI!! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 626 Registered: 7-2004 |
Buzz, John 3:16 is a wonderful verse to say back to an Adventist. It says it all! It does not say, "Whosoever believes, keeps Sabbath, believes in the IJ, doesn't eat meat...shall have eternal life"! Also, notice the present tense of the verse..."Whosoever believes HAS eternal life". It is TODAY! Our salvation is secure. Eternal life is not some distance promise. We have it NOW - peace, joy, contentment, security...all of it in the rest we have in Jesus Christ our Savior!! Resting in Jesus, Denise | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2005 |
I believed John 3:16 when I became Adventist. The problem was, they kept saying everything else they were adding was just plain common sense. Like adding the Sabbath was only because you want to keep the 10 Commandments. It is from God. It isn't a burden if you love Him. If you love yourself, you won't destroy your body, you will eat well... None of this is legalizzzzzzzzmmmmmm. I was told you do it out of love. A pastor once compared it to, "going home and beating your wife every night." You wouldn't do that and tell her you love her. Adventism will take a believer and confuse them and lead them to hell. Definately satanic. It was all just a bad dream, for many years, and I recently woke up. Now again, I believe John 3:16. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 563 Registered: 4-2000  |
Lynne, Your testimony is awesome! It is very exciting to finally see the big picture of salvation in Scripture. Legalists do not easily accept a free gift--not even from Jesus Himself. It took me nearly a half century to accept His amazing grace. Satan certainly has an abundance of cults to confuse the simple (easy to understand) gospel of Jesus Christ. It all fits neatly together like a completed puzzle. Praise God! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2218 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lynne, Like you I memorized John 3:16 as a child in the Adventist school. And like you, we kept everything else because we loved God. So everything I read in the Bible was colored with all these extras and EGW. I was so amazed when 2 years ago, God showed me how simple the plan of salvation is. Even a child can understand it. Hallelujah!!! Praise God!!! He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2219 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lynne, Like you I memorized John 3:16 as a child in the Adventist school. And like you, I kept everything else because I loved God. So everything I read in the Bible was colored with all these extras and EGW. I was so amazed when 2 years ago, God showed me how simple the plan of salvation is. Even a child can understand it. Hallelujah!!! Praise God!!! He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 140 Registered: 12-2004 |
Interestingly as I have read the document from the WCG the premise layed out regarding understanding scripture is a fundemental principle that all people studying out of SDA should use...(Okay, everyone should look at this method) An important principle in understanding a specific passage of Scripture is to see it in context. The context includes the immediate subject at hand in which the questionable verses are found, as well as the overall context of the book itself. A passage in question should also be understood as much as possible on its own terms. It should not be interpreted on the basis of an assumed premise, such as in this case: God commands Christians to keep the seventh-day Sabbath. | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2004 |
Goldenbear, the principle of keeping the context is indeed very critical. IMO this a major reason why SDA's are unable to grasp the clear teachings of Scripture. Reading in context is the natural way of reading any literature in order to understand it. This is why the Inductive Method is such a useful way to do Bible study. Think of the 1st century church receiving the NT. We have the entire NT in one book. The first Christians got it a gospel or a letter at a time. They undoubtedly would read the individual piece all the way through at one time. This would be especially true of the epistles. After all, who gets a letter from a relative and just skips around reading a sentence here and there. No, you start at the beginning and read the whole letter. This gives context. And it is the overall context that clarifies the details. Dane | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2006 |
What did Jesus mean when he said "If you love me you will keep my commands" Also what is Sin? Sin is the transgression of the law. True! What is the New Covenant? Where is the Law now written? Do you think it is ok to transgress any of Gods Law? Is it permissible to kill, steal, lie, etc.? Harden not your hearts to the truth! Sin is the transgression of the law, including the 4th commandment. If you love Him keep his commands! Just because you are a former Adventist you are not free to transgress the Law of God. I rest in Jesus finished work and am saved. However I love to keep the Sabbath Day as perscribed in the 4th commandment. Remember! | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2006 |
What did Jesus mean when he said "If you love me you will keep my commands" Also what is Sin? Sin is the transgression of the law. True! What is the New Covenant? Where is the Law now written? Do you think it is ok to transgress any of Gods Law? Is it permissible to kill, steal, lie, etc.? Harden not your hearts to the truth! Sin is the transgression of the law, including the 4th commandment. If you love Him keep his commands! Just because you are a former Adventist you are not free to transgress the Law of God. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2005 |
This is one of the things I really like about these forums -- the spirit of love in which we can explore various viewpoints. Gilbert | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2225 Registered: 3-2004 |
Brian4, These are only some of the texts I read when I define God's commandsments. 2 John 5,6 And now I beg of you, lady, not by way of writing you a new command but instead the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this love consists in our behaving in agreement with His commands; this is the command, that you walk in love, as you heard from the first. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love springs from God and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. v. 18 Love has no fear in it; instead perfect love expels fear, for fear involves punishment. Read all of 1 John 4 and 2 John and 3 John and the book of John. Read everything in context. I will look for the other texts to answer the rest of your questions. When Jesus went back to heaven the Holy spirit was sent to the believers. It is because I have the Holy Spirit with me that I have the desire not to hurt God or my fellow man. God writes this law to love others on our hearts. I hope this helps. Diana |
