| Author | Message | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ok you all I need counsel and prayer. I had written a letter to a friend about why I was leaving the church. She has written me with of coarse some concerns. I'll number them has she has. 1) that God led me into the SDA church and that I should re-examine my reasons to leave since God never changes. 2)that I shouldnt allow my faith to crumble because there has been hypocrisy within the ranks concerning abortions in the hopitals,as long as there is sinful man in chargethere will be problems, and that the pioneers would roll over in thier grave if they knew what was going on. 3) she challenges me to read the conflict of ages daily,aong with the scripture that goes with it,and write down what I agree with and what I dont agree with 4)when I analyze and dissect too much I lose that child like faith that is required for heaven 5)If I dont get in touch with the reasons with the original reasons why I came to the church in the first place Im not going to win that battle,that the enemy has infiltrated my "midst" he will stop at nothing to get me out of the church. She then closed with she loves me and I dont doubt that she does,but I wonder if I'll be able to convince her or if I should share all the dirty secrets Ive found out of the SDA church,in a loving way that I dont allinate her. I allinated people when I joined the church I dont want to go there again. Blessings,DAwn | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wolfgang -- I don't know if this is an appropriate response to the concerns that this lady is expressing to you, but I'll share three points that I feel may help. It may be possible that she may (semi-consciously) have some of the same concerns, and be interested in what you provide as answers. She could be "testing" her answers to see if they are indeed valid. That said, here are what I consider to be three rock-solid reasons why I am leaving the Seventh-day Adventist Church and moving forward. 1. We all want to have the Seal of God, don't we? If we don't have the Seal of God (in the last days according to SDA-ism) then we will automatically have the Mark of the Beast. Since is is vitally important to our eternal salvation that we have the Seal of God, what does the Bible say that it is? That is simple and straight-forward. I find it to be a very good starting place. There is really not much wiggle-room for SDAs. They will squirm and try to work in the "sign of the seal" or "sign of discipleship of the seal" -- but the question is a very simple one. "What does the Bible say the seal of God is?" A child can read the bible and tell that it is the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit." It is not the Seventh-day Sabbath or any other thing that God created. It is God the Holy Spirit -- Himself. This is an extremely serious thing, that the SDAs have made rather trite, and to occur "sometime in the future." When Christ went to Heaven, he said he would send the Comforter. She should hopefully understand that to mean the Holy Spirit. Paul talks about people of his day being "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise", etc. Point 1. 2. As you have recognized point #1 and prayed earnestly that you will give the Holy Spirit his rightful chair, instead of denying Him and replacing his sealing process in your heart and mind, with something else -- which IS, by the way, called the "unpardonable sin" -- the Holy Spirit has lead you to do further study, and these latest conclusions are the results of His leading. You must follow your convictions. Point 2. 3. Tell her to show you where in the Bible it talks about an Investigative Judgement. Read Early Writings, page 55 for example, and also read the entire book of Hebrews in one sitting. You will see they are not only different. They are COMPLETELY different. I'll bet she has never read Hebrews like a story book, and then applied it that way. For more info read http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/AssetOrLiability.html and http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/1979forum/index.cfm Point 3. Avoid the temptation to use the "buckshot approach" and bring in all kinds of other issues. The bullet points to quiz her on are plainly discussed here. I recommend that you not get off onto the Sabbath and Covenents with her at this time. She obviously hasn't studied much in these two areas otherwise she wouldn't be asking you the questions that she is. Keep your "firepower" very focused on the three points above, and I will guarantee that she will never get past them without reaching the conclusion that Ellen White is a false prophet, and not to be trusted. This conclusion, will of course, be very disturbing to her. I think God has lead her to you because YOU have answers that she needs. But be sure to stay focused. The tendency is for SDAs to start going off in all directions on various discussions -- leaving things in a general state of confusion. She can claim that you have become a Fordite, etc. You can tell her, "No. You have been sealed by the Holy Spirit in the way that Paul describes, and pray for His daily guidance, and these are things He is leading you to IN THE BIBLE. Stick with the Bible. This lady will never make it past these points listed above, because she can't biblically. Just my opinion. I will be praying for you. Gilbert | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 320 Registered: 2-2001 |
Wolfgang, I would like to address #1. She is correct in that God never changes, but some times God takes us down a certain path the teach us something in order to have us appriciate the end result. Look at the Children of Isreal, they were in the desert for 40 years being prepared for the promised land. God wanted them just so before they could enter. I fully believe that God took my husband and myself through many years of being SDAs so that now we are in awe of, and very willing to share, what the true message of God is. Does that mean God changed His mind in where I should be? NO it means He used that experiance to change ME! Vi | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 270 Registered: 5-2004 |
God sometimes leads us through the wilderness in order to bring about his purpose. I went to an SDA college, having never previously had experience with the SDA church, and I can tell you, it was definitely a spiritual wilderness. Perhaps God had something for you to learn through your SDA experience, and wants you to use that knowledge or those relationships for the furtherance of His Kingdom. To the challenge she gave of reading DofA and the Bible together, you may want to remind her that the Bible alone is our authority, and chalenge her to read the Bible alone, prayerfully asking God to speak through it. And while she is reading, tell her to specifically address and find, from the Bible alone, the 3 points Wolfgang listed above. The "you shouldn't analyze too much or you will lose your childlike faith" argument is a mixed metaphor, and poorly applied. The childlike faith talked about in the Bible is to be placed in Christ alone for our salvation, not in the numerous works of EGW or any other human. It sounds like she just outlined for you all her personal reasons for not listening to her own inner doubts about SDAism. At least she is continuing the conversation with you, giving you a chance to share some of what you have learned about faith and SDAism. I pray that God can use the opportunity to reach her as well. -tanya- | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2004 |
Point #1 just doesn't make sense. God leads people out of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's and other cults. Why wouldn't he lead people out of this one? I totally agree with Gilbert's 3 points. In fact, I just had a short conversation with an SDA yesterday, and we plan to talk again, and those are just the things that I need to say! I also get all jumbled up with all the information that I have studied and am glad to have those three things to focus on when speaking with an SDA. Pray for me! Bb | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2005 |
Violet - Wow! What a powerful example. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2005 |
I find that other SDA's will wax elloquent about "What a blessing it is!" to read Desire of Ages, Great Controversy, etc. They always fall back to that when they can't prove that she was inspired. Or they will resort to giving some personal testimony as to what a blessing Ellen White has been in their spiritual life. Here in Salt Lake City, Utah, I am surrounded by Mormons who do just as good a job. See http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-3156-1,00.html and http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2003_08_05_Bulloch.htm), (As an aside on the "holy life" of Joseph Smith you might find http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon262.htm to be some rather interesting reading in how far "blind faith" in a "prophet" can take people.) And at the end of every testimony they say "I know that the Church is true.", but does that make it so? They, too, tell their faithful, that if they seriously entertain the idea that there are faults in the teachings of Joseph Smith that there will be no stopping until they completely apostatize, and no longer believe the Holy Scriptures either. That is a religion of fear, not a religion of love. It is also a belief system that puts works way ahead of the recognition that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags." I have found the best way to deal with this type of a response is to ask the person, that is so enamored with the writings of Ellen White, why they don't just go to the sources of her inspired writings. I would, (in most cases -- otherwise they automatically discount it) not give them a list straight off of http://ellenwhite.org, but if you talk knowledgebly they have nothing to refute it with. As an example, I bought a copy of Night Scenes of the Bible, written by Reverend Daniel March in 1869, on eBay for about $14.00. Other examples are at http://cgi.ebay.com/Night-Scenes-In-The-Bible-1870-Rare-Book_W0QQitemZ6562232194QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and http://cgi.ebay.com/1873-NIGHT-SCENES-IN-THE-BIBLE-REV-DANIEL-MARCH_W0QQitemZ6598721662QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Edersheim is another author she copied prolifically from . See http://search-desc.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C5&sacur=0&sorefinesearch=1&from=R10&fscl=1&fcl=3&fss=0&frpp=50&saslop=1&satitle=Edersheim&sacat=267%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&fts=2&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt= for inexpensive copies of some of his books. There is something about actually owning one of the same books that she copied from and reading directly from it. It takes the "inspiration" out of her writings when you can read the source yourself. And when you read writings that she didn't copy like Early Writings, page 55, you can quickly see how lost she was when she didn't have someone to copy. For EGW sources see: http://ellenwhite.org/rea/sop.htm http://ellenwhite.org/egw17.htm http://ellenwhite.org/rea/rea5.htm (Patriarchs and Prophets) http://ellenwhite.org/rea/rea6.htm (Desire of Ages) http://ellenwhite.org/rea/rea8.htm and http://ellenwhite.org/rea/rea9.htm (Great Controversy) http://ellenwhite.org/egw4.htm Desire of Ages was copied from William Hanna's Life of Christ, John Harris's The Great Teacher, and others. (by Walter Rea) Now you can read Edersheim's Life and Times of Jesus online for yourself (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes.toc.html). Tell her to get out her Desire of Ages out and make her own comparisons. While she is at it she might like to check out how Patriarchs and Prophets was copied from Edersheim's Bible History: Old Testament, vols. 1 to 4. She can read Edersheim's Bible History online for herself at http://philologos.org/__eb-bhot/default.htm Tell her to take her Patriarchs and Prophets and compare it for herself. I would not mention Elder Walter Rea to her. Spoon feed the individual points to her one at a time. Elder Rea spent a lifetime compiling Ellen White quotes in books that my wife and I used for Bible class at Southern Missionary College, and like Desmond Ford and the Sanctuary doctrine, has studied her sources more than any other (past) Seventh-day Adventist alive today. Once you get her past this point your contact will be an ex-SDA as well! Ellen White's "halo" will have been removed by her own deceit. Gilbert | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3279 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, great three points! Dawn, you should know in advance that there will be people who will be alienated from you simply for leaving. Their distancing themsleves will not be because you didn't explain things well enough. It will be because your leaving is shining the light of truth on their own deception, and it's too frightening to "go" there. I agree wholeheartedly with Gilbert re: sticking to specific, focused points. And Violet, I have known people who had to go "through" Adventism in order to come to the place of understanding and spiritual awareness to which God ultimately led them. Colleen | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2005 |
I dont doubt for a minute that I met Jesus at the SDA church.But praise God He didnt leave me there.Dawn | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2005 |
thankyou too for taking time and repsonding to my cry for help,sometimes I feel so strong and other times so weak.......dawn | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 233 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dawn, My thoughts about your concerns: 1) You were probably lead to the Adventist church because you were searching for Jesus. The Holy Spirit convicts us and leads us to the Truth. The Truth is in the Bible and this is where we learn about Jesus. He is the way, the truth and life for sinners, for all of us - not a church, not a single denomination. Only churches such as the Morman Church and Jehovah Witnesses claim you must go only to their churches. Not true bible teaching churches. John 14:6 ......."I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And that means no one comes to the Father except through Christ. Not through the Sabbath, not because you don't eat unclean foods or because you go to the Adventist Church and are a good Adventist. Do former Adventists go to heaven when they don't keep the Sabbath, eat bacon, don't believe in Adventism? Adventism is not Christ. 2) Should your faith be in Jesus or the Adventist Church? You need not turn away from Christ. 3) Decline the offer. Conflict of Ages will add to your confusion. Tell her that there is no Conflict, Jesus conquered sin. Tell her to read Romans 10:9-13 as follows - 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Then tell her to read what Ellen White says and ask her why she says this. Ask her if it is biblical. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. Christ's Object Lessons, page 155, paragraph 1 Tell her to read Galatians 3-4, Colossians 2, Hebrews 8 and Romans 7. 4) Exactly. Read the bible only. No requirements for heaven. Jesus only. 5) Most people go to church, as I have, to find edification. True peace can only be found through Jesus. I did not find that peace at the Adventist church. I am so grateful and so happy to be free in Christ! I am reading the bible every day, praying, listening to Christian music. It takes me away from the Adventist confusion. Adventism brought me to confusion. God did not bring me to confusion. Satan cannot read our minds. Free yourself from Satan, move forward and don't look back, whenever possible! End of controversy. Lynne | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2004 |
For me, I have decided that my point of conversation will revolve around progressive revelation. I find many in the adventist church who strongly espouse this concept. I believe that God has led me to a clearer revelation of His will. It is supportable by scripture. There are two questions that most adventists don't know how to answer. 1. In the end time, do I have to keep the Sabbath to be saved, if I knew about it? 2. Paul tells us there is nothing I can do to be saved. Does that include the Sabbath? or was Paul lying? These two questions don't equate to me. I may be a little off the mark here, but my response to wolfgangs 1st point. | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-1999 |
I think you have an excellent point, Goldenbear! Your two questions plant a seed, a searching seed. Adventist, and any one else who has accepted pseudo-christianity, have to search in order to find truth. I have a question for those of you who have been out of the church for a while. I left the church 7 years ago after several years of searching the Scriptures. It took me that long to have the courage to take a stand which opposed my family. Of course their initial reaction was horrid. My parents were appalled. (Keep in mind, I have my own family and had not lived with my parents for more than 15 years when I told them.) My relationship with my parents (on their part) has vacillated widely!!! They respond to me with appalling disbelief, sweetness, disgust, love which is obviously forced, sadness, all out war, kindness, silent treatment, sarcasm, manipulation, guilt, embarrassment and, my personal favorite, denial. They will make comments and then act completely surprised that I don't believe what Adventist believe. My question is: Have you found as the years progress and you maintain your stand as a grace based Christian these "wars" with Adventist parents bleed over into "all things"? By all things I mean every aspect of life becomes an argument with them. There is no topic they will allow you to disagree with them on. Currently, with my parents, things which I don't agree with them on, things not related to religion at all, seem to incite more reaction than the religious issues. I have tried reasoning with them. I have told them what they are making an argument over is trivial, what they are upset about is ridiculous. It should not be an issue. I have tried to get them to see there is something bigger behind it, they need to accept the real problem they have with me: I'm not Adventist. Of course, when confronted with this they deny it. I'm quickly told that I'm the one that has a problem. I have pointed out to them how in the past (while I WAS Adventist) I often did not agree with them on certain things. (whether to go on vacation with them, whether to buy something or not, whether to do something, or when to do it) These things were never a huge issue--now they are. I have pointed out the only difference is I'm no longer their Adventist daughter. Again, I'm told I'm the one who is too sensitive. Their attempts to control and manipulate have reached an all time high. It's insane! I'm so tired of it and I'm completely weary of the lack of respect my parents show for me. I have told them this. Again, I'm the one with the problem. I can't speak to them about anything without finding out later, from a relative, they are mad, upset or something akin to that. What is the deal?? Is this part of a "normal" Adventist reaction to a loved one who has maintained a belief which opposes theirs or are my parents way over the top? Lori | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1257 Registered: 7-2003  |
Lori, I can relate to those remarks as the guilty party and B has frequently asked me why everything boils down to theology. We can't have any discussions that I don't somehow think about what the "appropriate" SDA position might be. Some of it is because I was blindsided by his position after presenting himself as a "Christian" and the gradual learning of what it meant that he was an SDA that I trust so little of what he says in fear of what he doesn't say. For me, as I have analyzed this trait in myself, it is the inability to have a conversation about the real topic, therefore, it seems I'm always trying to get the conversation around to the real issues rather than the irrelevant, surface ones he has wanted to talk about so we can continue ignoring the real ones. For me, without the basic common-ground foundation of faith, there are a lot of things I don't share with people. We can talk about common topics, work or kids, etc., but real personal conversations are usually reserved for people who understand my faith foundation. People without that commonality aren't really in a position to advise or even understand me. Back in the day, when I was still trying to have conversations with B, once the topic got too intense and he didn't have any more comebacks, he would leave and there never was any closure or resolve to the conversation. I have never really felt he has heard my position, just knows what SDAs say about my position. I can't say everything you describe is me, but I certainly recognize the person who ultimately sees every discussion with an SDA as boiling down to an issue of theological conflicts. Some of it is also protection, I don't want to be deceived again as I was in the beginning. Your parents and you come from a different relationship, but B has asked me the same question you are asking....why does everything boil down to theology. I don't know how to look at him and not see what I see or ignore what I see. To me, it's unresolved emotional baggage that will probably never be resolved as long as we are at odds on this particular issue, because I'll never trust him with anything else...what else really matters if you can't share your faith? It's very conflicting for me as well, but the emotions are real and unresolved. And after 6 + years, it seems unresolvable! But that's from a non-SDA perspective. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 118 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lori, what is happening to you is precisely why I have chosen not to confront my adventist family. Actually, my mother. Every aspect of life involves "what does Ellen White say on the subject?" For instance since she said a tree at church for Christmas to collect money for the poor gives the adventists license to go all out for Christmas without guilt. However, the Easter bunny is a pagan sin! I have come to the conclusion that I can only make little comments to my mother regarding what I think, and hope that maybe a seed is planted about grace, because she lives for whatever Ellen says. I just can't bring myself to go through what you are going through! Bb | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3285 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lori, I wish I could off you some concrete hope, but I can't. My husband's Advemtist family is unresolved on the issue after 7+ years. While we can avoid overt confrontation if we talk about "the weather", etc., conflict is unavoidable if we try to deal with any significant issues for the very reason Melissa explained. Their worldview, their ground of "truth" is completely different from ours, and we can't have normal give-and-take about life's concerns because we understand the causes, the results, and the consequences of almost every life situation to be different from the way they see them. I believe the problem is actually two-edged: Adventism provides a framework for people to feel "right", "superior", and "special" because of their unique beliefs and doctrines. It provides a great hiding-place for those who tend to be emotionally immature or unhealthy, because it doesn't provide its members with an impetus to look at truth. When people tend to have healthier "inner lives", so to speak, they will more likely be willing to listen and to try to find some sort of common ground on which you can get along without losing your relationship. People for whom truth is more important than comfort will more likely try to understand. That being said, the spiritual hold of a cult is powerful. Even those who want to "get along" reach a place where they either have to question their own beliefs or stop the discussion. Truth is powerful and frightening. I was just pondering Ephesians 5:8-13 today. Once we "were darkness"; now we are "light in the Lord". Then Paul admonishes us to live "as children of light" and proceeds to identify how that would look: "the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth." Then Paul goes on to tell us not to have "anything to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." (Remember, he has just said WE used to BE "darkness".) Verse 13: "But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible." When someone has truly met Jesus and had embraced the reality of salvation, Christ's forgivenessóthe gospel, in other words, he crosses over from being "darkness" into being "light in the Lord". Being "light" is terrifying and threatening to those still in darkness. When we speak of Jesus and the truth and the realities we have seen about our old beliefs as we have embraced the gospel, those in the darkness will become more and more agitated as they seek ways to eradicate or escape the light shining near them. "The light makes everything visible." Colleen | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-1999 |
Melissa, Bb, Colleen, I appreciate you insights. I especially appreciate your sharing Eph 5:8-13. I've been leading out a Bible Study in my home. We've been studying 2 Corinthians. The morning of the Bible Study in which we were studing 2 Cor 10:3-5 (spiritual warfare!) my mother called me five minutes before people began to arrive. She was determined to start an argument even though I told her repeatedly my Bible Study group was coming, this was not the appropriate time. She persisted. Even with me telling her two ladies were walking up to my door she still would not relent. I finally told her, "Mother, I've got to go." I was commanded, not very nicely, "You call me when they leave." I don't want to "read" to much into it but in light of what we were studying, the harsh tone she called me in and a urgent feeling I should have some quiet time with God about half-hour before this happened I can't help but feel that she was a tool of the enemy. That just really get to me. This is my mother. At the moment I have terminated all contact with my parents. Absolutely everything is a conflict. If it's not a religious belief (which we haven't touched on in more than 6 months) it's something as ridiculous as the blouse I had on in a picture, the length of my bangs, my plans for the day (I've become involved in several community projects and clubs) none of which she appreciates. I have been able to tell for the last few years that they really don't like being around me but they also can't stay away from me either. It's weird and I hate being "in it"! I want to do what's right according to God. I have prayed and prayed and I keep having the thought that I should not communicate with them at all. However, since that's what I really want to do (not communicate) I have a hard time accepting that it's also what God wants me to do. There is scripture which supports this: Titus 3:10, 2 Cor. 6:14-16. The principle of 2 Tim. 2:23-26 so far has not proven effective in this situation even though we had some amicable discussions a couple of years ago. Thanks again for your insights, I have benefited from everyones posts. Lori | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2004 |
Lori, I am having a similar issue with my mother. SHe hit midlife crisis and entered an odd rebellion stage, rejecting every moral, tenet, and religious notion she used to have. (She used to be a devout, albeit very legalistic, Christian.) Now she seems to have turned her firepower on me. She cals my sister and runs down all the decisions my husband and I have made for our family. (from what we do with our money to the fact that our son is in KungFu etc.) You gave me an epiphany just now... Until you pointed out that you feel the Enemy could be using her to get to you, I didn't realize that is probably precisely what is happening with us. This issue has stolen joy from us, especially me, and has distracted me from being 100% active in my spiritual walk with God. I finally had to be straight with my mother, telling her that she can not drink at all in my home, and she and her husband can not show up intoxicated at my home of I will have to ask them to leave. I also said that I didn't appreciate her disrespecting my family, and she was have to stop talking trash if she wanted to continue our relationship. That was before Thanksgiving and I haven't heard from her since. It is odd and troublesome, especially considering that she and I used to talk several times a week. I echo your feelings... I want to do what is right! I want to show her the heart of God in my actions. I also can't let her run over me or put my kids in danger with her behaviour, though. I wish I had some advice to offer, some words of wisdom. But i just don't know what to do myself. I will be praying for you though, because I know the hardship and strain of such a situation. I will be anxiously watching for any words of wisdom anyone else might have to offer. -tanya- | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2005 |
Lori,I have not seen my father for 6 yrs now. He said some very hateful things to me,he is not a christian by the way.I said somethings too and I apoligized to him but he wouldnt forgive me and then didnt want to have anything to do with me. I had to remove myself from the situation. I guess I love him I really havent thought about that for a long time. But I decided to be greatful for that around me,my husbands SDA family are loving and supportive,so Iam very thankful for all of them.I couldnt have gotten thur this time without them. I send christmas cards, I pray for him. It was very painful at first I pray to God that if He wants me to see him I'll be obedient and go,but havent felt led yet. And im not sven sure he'd want to see me now?? my sister talks with him and he never mentions me,it;s like I have died to him,and sometimes its like that with me,I wish I had a better picture to paint for you. but really the only thing that got me tur that time is God's love,and my family and the good things around me. Life is full of drama without me being in the middle of it, it was sucking the life out of me. Im sorry your going thur this may the love of God surround you where your at. Dawn | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2005 |
on another thought I spoke with my friend tonight that started this thread,and she suggested I read the testimonies that she has been blessed and doesnt doubt for a minute that EGW was risen up by God. I told her I wasnt going to read her because I have come across that she copied others work and she said it was very common in that day for people to copy others works,i told her i have heard that explanation before and I dont buy it,she said that EGW has passed the test in the bible to being a prophet. she then asked me if i was studying with a SDA,i told her no,Im studying by myself and getting a wealth of info here and other places,but most important the Bible and that I have been praying that God was leading me,she feels that I may be letting the devil tickle my fancy by doing that,that I may be in serious danger here,I asked her if I would be lost by leaving the church she said she's not my judge.I told her I didnt believe in the IJ and that Christ finished His work on the cross,she said that she did too,and that every SDA I ask would say the same thing,I said are you sure about that?? I said to her what if Im right and your wrong? she didnt say anything to that statement. so she suggested that I find things im in dissagreement about and study with a SDA and find out why I disagree with that,so I said I'll study with you,we'll have to correspond my mail but at least she said yes without me having to say alot of ugly things which I was tempted to do.So I have found some study on dirk Andersons site but I wondered if you could suggest a bible study,in comparison with EGW and maybe a list of books she has copied from?? By the way colleen I have started the study of Galations and Im loving it,Blessings,Dawn | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dawn -- I am so sorry to hear about the problem with your father. I know it hurts you deeply. Gilbert | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dawn -- what you might do is ask her to read Albion F. Ballenger's "Cast Out For the Cross of Christ". It can be found at http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/cocc.htm Since Albion Ballenger and Ellen White were in such stark disagreement, they both can't be right. According to HER Bible who is right? If she considers Ballenger to be a heretic then are all the people Raymond Cottrel (leading SDA and major SDA Bible Commentary Contributor) listed at http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/AssetOrLiability.html heretics as well? I doubt she will be able to make it past this one subject -- which is where it sounds like it would be good to keep her. She can't have it both ways! And we haven't even discussed http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/1979forum/index.cfm There is simply no way an Adventist, who is forced to focus on this ONE subject can ever get past it, unless they go into a total state of denial about the obvious falsehoods and unchristian behavior of Ellen White. If you keep bringing her back to this one subject she will sooner or later run out of excuses. I personally don't see any reason to get off on any other subjects of debate. Since Ellen White says this is THE cornerstone of the whole SDA belief system, they have dug the hole so deep there is simply no way out. And if she acknowledges that Ellen White is indeed a false prophet, she has just placed herself in complete disagreement with the 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Seventh-day Adventism is simply indefensible from the Bible if the starting point is the the book of Hebrews. The book, the whole book, and nothing but the book! Gilbert | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3297 Registered: 12-2003 |
Walter Rea's book "The White Lie" is also good as far as exposing Ellen's plagiarism and comparing her writing with her source books. Keep praying, Dawn, that God will guide your study and keep you focused on Jesus. It will become a self-defeating study if you spiral into debates about Ellen. Ask God to open her heart and to give you great wisdom and the mind of Christówhich is our promise when we are in Christ--1 Cor. 2óand ask Him to speak through you and to teach both of you with His Spirit as you pursue this study. God is faithful; He will direct you! Colleen | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2005 |
thanks for the encouragment and references,Iam going to present it to her and ask for a feed back,but I really dont want to spend anymore time with EGW and Im going to tell her that because I feel that it is keeping me stuck in the "mud" and Im not moving forward,but she asked what I was reading and where I was getting my informatin from so I will share that with her. And at least the seeds will have been planted and then she can decide what to do with EGW. And it may be years before things click for her I know I ordered the book Sabbath in Crisis in 1999,and never even read it. I think I threw it away because I was afraid of what I might find. But I knew in my heart I was to keep searching.Praise be to God,I know He will lead and I love her and she loves me,she said that I will always be her sister even if I become a heathen ,she was kidding. blessings all!Dawn |
