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Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |     |
Jeremiah,
Notice that the way we eat and drink Jesus' body and blood is by believing on Him (John 6:35, 40, 47)!
And the Lamb had been slain, yes, but we don't slay Him every time we partake of the Lord's Supper! Even after the Resurrection, Jesus still bears the marks of the Crucifixion.
Again, I refer you to Hebrews 9:25-26, which is very clear.
In John 6:51, the Greek says, "if anyone eats of this bread even once, he will live forever"--this is not referring to continually partaking of the Lord's Supper, it is talking about putting your trust in Jesus Christ and His once-for-all sacrifice for your sins!
Jeremiah, Augustine lived at the same time as Chrysostom--so how can one be authoritative and not the other?
Also, the early Christians (including the NT) clearly taught that the Law has been done away with, that the Old Covenant is obsolete, and that we are under a New Covenant. But the Catholic church teaches that we are under the Decalogue, which according to the Bible is the Old Covenant! The Catholic church tries to tell us that we are under the Law. This is false doctrine.
Everyone,
I have a question that has been nagging me for a while now, that I hope someone can answer for me. If Luther taught that we are only saved by the will of God and salvation by grace alone through faith alone, then why does the Lutheran church teach that baptism and the Lord's Supper are necessary for the forgiveness of sins? By calling these works "means of grace," aren't they re-defining grace like the Catholics do?? And how do these works in addition to faith equal faith alone?
Jeremy |
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:59 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Ric and Raven are experts on Lutheran theology, but I just went to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church last Sunday and read their literature and did not get the idea that baptism and communion are essential. It is true that Luther at one time taught baptisimal regeneration, but abandoned it. Here is the way I see that Lutherans look at this issue. After we are miraculously resurrected with a new soul, and our hearts are changed, then our response to that salvation will be to obey Christ in every way, but not to keep your salvation. I like the high view of Communion that Lutherans have. It is a means of grace in the same way reading our Bibles is a means of grace. We read the Bible to get fed, and take Communion as the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Ric or Raven can expand on this.
Stan |
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:12 pm: | |
Here's something that came to mind, though I don't think this really falls in the category of "useful comments" it struck me as sort of a humorous parody. It might make you think "outside the box" though! Please don't take this too seriously. 
Christ plus forgiveness (C.80)
The Didache is an early Christian teaching text which discribes a very primitive church. In the Didache we have this requirement for forgiveness;
"Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..
Pray this three times each day."
This teaching that in order for God to forgive us we must forgive others laid the foundation for more human actions to merit God's favor. It is unfortunate that Christians ever started praying this prayer every day, because it could lead them to think something other than the merits of Christ was necessary for justification.
Jeremiah |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:46 pm: | |
Stan, take a look at the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod's belief statement on the "Means of Grace" here:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=572
It seems pretty clear that they believe water baptism "is applied for the remission of sins" and that it's "a washing of regeneration" and that the object of the Lord's Supper is "the communication and sealing of the forgiveness of sins."
Then they say:
quote:Since it is only through the external means ordained by Him that God has promised to communicate the grace and salvation purchased by Christ, the Christian Church must not remain at home with the means of grace entrusted to it, but go into the whole world with the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments, Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16. For the same reason also the churches at home should never forget that there is no other way of winning souls for the Church and keeping them with it than the faithful and diligent use of the divinely ordained means of grace.
I guess they believe though, that those elected by God will partake of the Sacraments...? Still though, that is not faith alone nor what the Bible teaches. If someone is not able to be baptized, they wouldn't be able to have any assurance of salvation. And how does one know how often one must partake of the Lord's Supper?
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on February 01, 2006) |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3324
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:12 pm: | |
Interesting, Jeremy--and very informative article, Stan.
The history of the creeping of heresy into the church is so interesting. The fact that it began to happen almost immediately (as Galatians shows) and that church leaders were introducing "leaven" a bit at a time from the generation succeeding the apostles onward demonstrates to me our vulnerability to deception and spiritual blindness.
Truly, if Christ is not our sole means of salvation, of staying saved, of spiritual growth, we are doomed because we are flawed. All the issues of our salvation, practice, growth, and perseverance must be under the sovereign will of God, or we are only as good as our weakest moment.
I praise God for His word and for His Spirit Who teaches us God's will and reality through His word. I praise our Father for Jesus who is our faithful high priest who has been and continues to intercede for all of our sins from the time of His ascension to the Father's right hand.
I praise the Father for His perfect will for orchestrating our creation and salvation. I even praise Him that His reasons and His "big picture" from eternity is hidden from my understanding., but I praise Him that His reality and personal concern are tangible through His work in my life and the lives of those I know who love Him.
The miracle of new birth "proves" His reality to meóand I praise the Trinity for making it possible for me to be adopted into His family and to have eternal life.
Colleen |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 368
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | |
LOL, Stan! I am no expert on Lutheran theology, but I have been reading a book called ìThe Spirituality of the Crossî in an effort to better understand how Lutherans see things. Perhaps Ric would like to add to my descriptions.
In the chapter called ìMeans of Graceî it first of all clearly states that justification was literally accomplished 2,000 years ago, solely by the work of God, and Christís righteousness is imputed to the believerís account on a solely objective basis (not any merit of our own). It further states that even the faith to believe in Jesus is completely the work of God.
Then it says the ìmeans of graceî are material vehicles through which the Holy Spirit works to work both faith and good works in our lives, and for spiritual growth. Itís a tangible way of God interacting with humans from the outside.
This book explains the Bible (Godís Word) to be a means of grace in this way: ìThe main difference between Godís Word and merely human words, is that Godóthe Holy Spiritópromises to be at work whenever His Word is spoken. ëMy word that goes out from my mouth will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I have sent it.í Isaiah 55:11.î Romans 10:14-17 is where Paul says ìhow can they believe if they havenít heardÖ Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.î
When it talks about baptism, it says ìTo be baptized in Godís name is to be baptized not by men but by God HimselfÖit is truly Godís own act.î Iím not sure where I stand on infant baptism, but they give a really good illustration about how infant baptism is a perfect example of justification by faith. A baby doesnít have much knowledge or capacity for choice, but faith is trust, and it is evident a baby is able to trust. Especially in the case of infant baptism, justification is received purely passively and receptively. Iím sure God is literally present in baptism as well.
Regarding Communion, Lutherans believe Jesus is literally present in and with the bread and wine. I personally believe He is spiritually present and they believe His physical body and blood are present ìin, with and under the bread and wine,î but either way Iím sure itís an effective means of receiving Christ. Communion, like spending time in Godís Word, is seen as a way of continually receiving spiritual nourishment.
I donít have a complete understanding at this point of everything Lutherans might mean when they talk of the ìmeans of graceî so donít be too hard on me!
I already know what Jeremy's first question will be. So do Lutherans believe salvation is maintained through the "means of grace"? I'm certain they don't, but I'll have to investigate further to explain.
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Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 369
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:33 pm: | |
By the way, I also appreciated the article you posted, Stan. Wouldn't it be nice if churches that were doctrinally as pure as Paul's writings were readily found everywhere? That's the problem today--the quest to find who's the closest. And then the patience to handle the best there is. And I'm sure that differs between different areas of the country.
Wasn't one of the points in that article of an add-on (a couple hundred years down the road or so) that you have to believe correct doctrine as another salvation requirement? I've even heard within SDAism "you'll be judged by what you believe." Well, I'm sure I don't have totally pure and correct doctrine--who does anymore? |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 370
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 6:43 pm: | |
Here's a really good explanation from the same LCMS website Jeremy references, explaining how Lutherans see baptism in relation to faith alone:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4645
quote:If one holds that baptism is a good work of obedience done by humans, I can understand how one might think that Lutherans teach that faith alone in Christ is not enough. But this is to fundamentally misunderstand, in our view, how the Scriptures everywhere describe Baptism, that is, as a divine, not a human, work. We reject any implication that baptism is a human work, one that we do in order to earn salvation. On the contrary, we hold that the Scriptures teach that baptism is God's precious gift through which He works to impart His saving grace revealed to us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who alone is our Savior. In a word, Baptism is a marvelous testimony to the unmerited grace of God.
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Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:29 pm: | |
Raven,
I knew you would come through! Those are excellent points. I have heard excellent explanations by good Lutheran scholars such as Rod Rosenblatt on the White Horse Inn www.whitehorseinn.org
that satisfy me that Lutherans in no way believe in baptisimal regeneration, or that taking Communion keeps them saved.
I was reading more of Luther's "Bondage of the Will" today and the further I get into this book, the more I believe that this man had such special gifts. But Luther was absolutely adamant that there could not be even a taint of man's work, or his will either to become saved or to remain saved. Salvation is purely of our God.
Jeremiah, you make good points above. All through church history up to the Reformation, salvation was always Christ plus something else.
Folks, does this ring familiar--those of us who have been delivered from Adventism? It was always Christ plus stricter Sabbatarianism, or Christ plus abstaining from foods and drinks, or Christ plus Ellen White. There is nothing new under the sun in church history if you read that article posted above.
However, I have seen enough solid evangelical Reformed, Lutheran, and dispensational churches where I believe the preservation of Christ alone plus nothing is still taught fairly consistently. But, human nature will always try to drift away into works salvation. It is not unique to SDAs, and Reformation Christianity must always be kept at the forefront.
Stan |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2119
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:05 pm: | |
Raven, just last week I read Sprituality of the Cross, the very same book you are now reading. As I often do with books of that sort my first reading is fast, then I go and reread the book to get into the depth of it. I attend a Misouri Synod congreation on Sunday evenings and an ELCA congreation on Sunday mornings. Over at the ELCA we are going through the new lutheran handbook which advertises as everything you want to know about the Lutheran religion as well as the cultural aspects of it and so on. Jeremy, the book is published by Ausburg Press. I'm sure it can be ordered through the ELCA website. I think itwas around $8.00. The other Lutheran publishing company is Concordia. I think Concordia is of the Misouri Synod. Here's an interesting bit of trivia. You can go to the Bible Sabbath Association website and order a book of over 300 Sabbath observing Christian churches in the Americas. In it are several Sabbath observing Lutheran congreations. They are all in states that get real cold. Nonetheless, if I was ever to travel in those states I think I'd like to visit a Sabbath-keeping Lutheran church. I get a monthly magazine called (What else?) The Lutheran. It really is my favorite magazine. You can get to it at www.thelutheran.com |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:22 pm: | |
Regarding salvation being maintained by the means of grace, I came across this statement in an answer about baptism on the LCMS site: "This faith needs to be fed and nurtured by God's Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die." (http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2608)
I just don't understand how they can teach predestination AND that a believer can lose their salvation.
Jeremy |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 429
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:39 pm: | |
Jeremy, if you spent any time attending Lutheran services, listening to Lutheran speakers, or reading Lutheran theologians you would understand that it is not a works-based theology in the least. Lutheran theology is dead-on with the teachings about both the sabbath and tithe (a rare find in any church). Another constant in Lutheran theology and services is that you can not escape the teaching that you are a sinner in constant need of God's grace. And that His grace is freely offered to you. Do I believe that Lutheranism is perfect in its teaching? No. But I can count on having the Gospel of Christ presented every single week. |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 572
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 9:33 pm: | |
Lutherans, notably the Missouri Synod, believe in confessing their sins to their pastor. This is what Martin Luther taught (see Luther's Little Catechism). Obviously, he alone did not succeed in restoring biblical Christianity in its entirety--certain Catholic elements still clung to his theology. In actual practice, however, contemporary Lutherans corporately confess their sins in a formal statement during or after communion--as part of their liturgy. This makes it very easy and impersonal for them. "We should receive the pastor's absolution as from God Himself, not doubting, but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven." (Luther's Little Catechism, p. 216). Sounds like a Catholic priest forgiving sins!
I asked a Missouri Synod Lutheran friend (a lay leader) a few months ago, "Why don't you confess your sins to your pastor as Martin Luther specified?" His answer went something like this: "Well, if I killed someone or did something else really bad, then I would confess that to my minister. Otherwise, the corporate confession suffices."
Also, a local Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor indicated in one of his sermons recently that he believed in eternal security. Even though Martin Luther strongly taught it, most of the parishioners were really upset with their pastor for even mentioning it. It made them very uncomfortable.
I wholeheartedly applaud the overall legacy of Martin Luther. I regard him very highly. I even have his German Bible in my library (in the old German script). However, my commendation of Luther comes with some reservations as well. After all, Martin Luther never wanted people to call themselves Lutherans. His mission was to herald the forgotten truth that salvation is by grace alone; through faith alone; in Christ's
finished work alone--plus nothing. Luther, like Augustine, held that the Scriptures become God's Word only when the Spirit establishes contact between the reader and the content.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:15 pm: | |
Jeremy,
That statement you linked above was about infant baptism. The point they were trying to make is that infant baptism doesn't necessary save all infants that are baptized. They still need to be confirmed that they have truly become saved.
As Dennis said, it is highly unlikely that Martin Luther himself believed that a true believer could lose his salvation. There is no way that he could believe that if his staements he made in "Bondage of the Will" are true. It would be ludicrous to say that we don't have the free-will to become saved (which he asserts) and then say that we have the free-will to will ourselves out of salvation. The whole thesis of the book would then fall apart.
Like Dennis, I agree that Luther wasn't perfect. But the legacy he and John Calvin left produced the greatest fruit of great men of God that could ever be imagined. This hall of fame includes John Knox, Jonathan Edwards, Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, most of the Puritans including John Bunyan (Pilgrim's Progress fame), John Owen, and then to Donald Grey Barnhouse, James Montgomery Boice, and in our day men like R.C. Sproul, J.I. Packer, John Piper, Michael Horton, and John MacArthur--just to name a few who stand in the great Reformation legacy of Luther and Calvin. The prolific writings of these men stand as classics of the faith today.
Stan |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2124
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:17 pm: | |
Dennis, some Lutheran churches are using confessional again. It is optional at these churches but apparently some folks have a greater reassurance of total forgiveness by actually hearing themselves confess outloud to a person who can audibly respond to that confession. I have no problem with the confession part of it or the pastor granting absolution. Jesus told his desciples to go out among the people healing, baptising and forgiving them of their sins. My favorite part of the church service is when the pastor says, "As an ordained minister of the church of Christ I now grant you forgiveness of all your sins." Yep! I really just get a wave of peace over me when I hear those words because I really believe them. |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 371
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 4:51 am: | |
I would never use a confessional, and I have a problem with the idea of confessing to a minister or any other person. I knew the catechism taught that, but I don't believe everything Martin Luther taught. He didn't figure out everything wrong about the RC in his lifetime. At least at our church during the corporate confession, the pastor does not say he forgives our sins, but instead says as an ordained servant of the Word, he announces to us the forgiveness of our sins. I can live with that (and I do like being reminded so regularly that I have been forgiven), but will never go any further.
(Message edited by Raven on February 02, 2006) |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 573
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 6:40 am: | |
Recently, I added the following book to my library, "MARTIN LUTHER: His Road to Reformation 1483-1521" by Martin Brecht. This impeccable classic is translated from German by James L. Schaaf. The author is a leading Lutheran scholar in Germany. I wanted to read a book about Martin Luther that represented scholarship and conciseness. I am still in the process of reading this 556-page book.
Dennis Fischer |
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:38 pm: | |
Now I'm curious; How would someone the believes in strictly "faith alone" understand these verses?
MT 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
MT 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
*******
I think, though I don't know for sure, that the way the Eastern Orthodox understand God's requirements for is that we are not required to pay any debt for past sins, because God is capable of forgiving us without charging us for mistakes we did previously, however I think they believe that God has to have our co-operation so that He can save us. And I think they interpret the word "salvation" more like "healing".
Sort of like this text;
MIC 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
And this;
MT 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
MT 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
MT 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
And this;
LU 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
LU 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
I think the basic EO teaching is that God requires humbleness and repentance in order to forgive and justify us.
Jeremiah |
Lynne
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Username: Lynne
Post Number: 255
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 1:20 pm: | |
I personally don't care for the confessional. My cousins used to make up sins every week. There is actually a person on the other end and the bible does say that we must watch what we say as to not tempt others and I don't think everyone confessing is careful about how they present their sins. In fact some people enjoy making it sound tempting. If details are given, as they are often, I would feel very sorry for whoever is listening that wants to retain a clean heart.
I lift my sins to the Lord in Prayer and if I feel I must also confess to a person, I wouldn't want to do so in graphic detail. Only the Lord has the power to forgive us. Though we can, through Christ, forgive one another those things that were done to each other. I have a little trouble with a church filtering our forgiveness of sins. I'm not putting down Lutherans for doing this. I know little about how the church does the confessional.
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Lynne
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Username: Lynne
Post Number: 256
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 1:28 pm: | |
Jeremiah (my dad's name..)
You made me think of how the history of religion outside of the bible is fine to learn. But I wouldn't base my faith in any church or denomination or accurate biblical rituals. I agree and disagree with some rituals and denominations. None are perfect.
I believe in Jesus, regardless of my denomination and rituals. Whether I accurately follow certain cultures or rituals won't make any difference as to my Salvation.
If I believe in Jesus, and if I surrender my heart and my life to Jesus, as I have done, the Holy Spirit will guide me. I read the bible and I understand what I am reading.
But if a person can't get past the simple part first, that is Jesus and the cross. Then the correct knowledge based on theology, history, or accurate rituals will not save a person. It would be based on works.
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3333
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 6:12 pm: | |
Jeremiah, the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 17:21-25 addresses this question. A servant owed a king a very large sum of money which he could not repay. The master ordered that the man, his wife, and children all be sold into slavery to repay the debt. The man pled for his life and begged for mercy. The master relented and forgave him all he owed.
The newly released man went out and promptly met another man who owed HIM a much smaller amount of money. Immediately he demanded repayment. The man pleaded for mercy because he could not pay. The forgiven man refused mercy and had the unfortunate man thrown into prison.
The master heard of this and said to him, "You wicked servant; I canceled all that debt of yoru sbecause you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?" He had the man throsn into prison and tortured.
Then Jesus said, "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."
The original debtor actually received forgiveness prior to meeting the man he was to forgive. The master did not withold forgiveness based on the debtor's entanglements. He forgave him freely on the basis of the debtor's request and need.
What that man's subsequent unforgiveness showed was that he did not take his own forgiveness seriously. He "dabbled" in forgiveness, but it did not overwhelm him with gratitutde or change his life. He was quite cavalier about the master's pardon. Instead of being overwhelmed by the master's grace and goodness, he interpreted his pardon as somehow making himself privileged. He had no internal change motivating him to forgive as he had been forgiven.
The master's pardonn was ineffective for him because he did not allow it to change him. It did him no good, and it exposed his greed instead of regenerating his heart.
Forgivenessówhich Jesus' death offers the worldódoes us no good if we do not allow it to make us new. God brings each person to a moment of saying "yes" or "no" to being made new by Jesus' forgiveness.
If we are not willing to let go our our "right" to get even with those who have wronged us, we have not embraced the reailty of God's forgiveness. God can't simply cancel our debt unless we are born of His Spirit. We can only receive God's forgiveness if we have allowed Jesus' blood to cover us in our repentance.
I don't see the passage in Matthew 6 having anything to do with confessing to another person. It is in the context of Jesus giving the disciples the Lord's Prayer, and he finishes by emphasizing that if we don't forgive, God's won't forgive. His point, I believe, is the same as the parable of the unmerciful servant; if God's forgiveness and grace have not transformed our hearts and driven us to repentance, we will be unforgiving, and that means God's forgiveness can't help us because we have suppressed this truth about God by our own wickedness.
Colleen |
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 57
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 9:56 pm: | |
I did not see the text in question having anything to do with confessing to another person either. It was the topic of whether our forgiving others is necessary in order that we can be justified or forgiven by God. In other words, do we have to "do" anything (forgive) besides having faith that God forgives us.
I think you answered it well. Jeremy might have a different perspective since if someone was already saved then decided later they would not forgive someone, could that make God's forgiveness to them ineffective? That's more a OSAS question.
Thanks,
Jeremiah |
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 58
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| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 10:51 pm: | |
I've had the practice of confessing to a priest explained this way;
Originally, the church was in a time of persecution, where there were not really any nominal Christians, and people were mature Christians. In this situation, when someone commited a serious sin, something which would injure the body of Christ, the person would confess to the body of Christ as a whole his sin.
1CO 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1CO 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Notice, since a person is part of the body of Christ, their sin will injure the body of Christ.
JAS 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
JAS 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
JAS 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The elders of the church would speak in the name of the church, based on the authority given here;
JOH 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
JOH 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
JOH 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
But in process of time, Christianity became a legal religion, and persecution ceased. People started joining the church and living halfhearted Christian lives. These people were not fit to hear other Christians make public confession of their sins against the body of Christ. Consequently, it was decided that the person should confess to a mature member of the body, and that often was a priest. The priest would have the authority to say their sin was forgiven, in the name of the whole body. See these examples of a person speaking to the church through it's bishops or elders.
AC 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
AC 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
AC 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
AC 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Here's another example, from Ignatius to the Ephesians, 107 A.D.
For, on hearing that I came bound from Syria for the common name and hope, trusting through your prayers to be permitted to fight with beasts at Rome, that so by martyrdom I may indeed become the disciple of Him "who gave Himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God,"[ye hastened to see me]. I received, therefore, your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and your bishop in the flesh, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. And blessed be He who has granted unto you, being worthy, to obtain such an excellent bishop.
In modern times the practice continues, with some variation in the different branches of the Church.
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