| Author | Message | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Once again I was listening to Bible Answer Man and heard Hannegraff tell someone that all reports of ghosts, demons, spirits, or other apparently demonic manifestations that are visual, olfactory, auditory, or otherwise physical are superstition, or hysteria, or hyper suggestibility. His reasoning is that demons are spirit beings and therefore can only suggest things to our minds, but can never manifest themselves in any sort of a physical sense. This seems to make sense, but it's made me really stop and think because I've always assumed that demons could affect the physical world at times or at least appear to people to deceive them, etc. Is that assumption a left over result of growing up Adventist? What do most other Christians believe on this? Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Chris, I've pondered that question, also. I don't believe all Christians view this issue the same way. I have to say, however, that I absolutely disagree with Hank on this one. First of all, spiritual reality is not limited from interaction with the physical world. We all have either had experiences or know those who have had experiences in which God intervened in mysterious ways that affected the physical world. For example, about four years ago our older son was driving with us as passengers. (He had his permit and was close to taking his driving test.) He was on a freeway on ramp, travelling at a speed that would mesh with the traffic, and he had his eye on a large two-trailer semi that was coming up on his left and was essentially where he needed to be as the ramp was ending. In his concentration on the semi, he completely failed to see that a van entering the freeway just in front of us was slowing drastically because of the heavy traffic, and we were bearing down on that van at a speed and from distance that absolutely ensured we would have a severe, unavoidable crash. There was no where to go (truck on left, steep drop-off on right, on ramp narrowing), and we were going WAY to fast to stop without a crash. All of us saw the van about the same time, I shrieked and closed my eyes and braced myself for a crash. I felt Roy put on the brakes, slow down, and smoothly adjust his speed, coming up right behind the van at exactly the right speed to follow it onto the freeway. Here's the deal: That controlled, smooth deceleration was NOT POSSIBLE. We were 'way to close, and we were going 'way too fast. The tires did not skid; we were not thrown forward; it was an absolutely impossible circumstance, but it happened. We know an angel (or some sort of help sent from God) slowed our car and kept us from probably certain death or at least severe injury. If spiritual intervention from God can affect our physical reality, then certainly evil spirits can also affect physical reality. Paull said in 2 Corinthians that Satan goes about masquerading as an angel of light. That suggests that at least sometimes, people are deceived by spiritual phenomenon that affect the world. Since evil specializes in counterfeiting truth, it only makes sense that it would act sometimes in the physical world. I've had a couple of experiences in my life which confirm that satan does have some ability to cause sensory "realities". I'm not into seeing spirits behind every bush, and I don't see any reason to fear. Satan is a defeated foe. But demons and their harrassment were evident in the Bible, and Jesus promised that his power would overcome them. In short, I disagree with Hank, but on the other hand, I need to keep my attention and focus on Jesus, not on what evil might be doing. We need to be aware, and we need to let the Holy Spirit give us discernment. The battle is His! Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Just being "devil's advocate" so to speak (i.e. I haven't developed a definitive theology on this topic): I think referencing what God can do in the physical realm might be an apples to oranges comparison. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and the very creator of all the physical world. In short, He can do anything that is within His character to do. Likewise, if good angels show themselves to humans, as they do from time to time in the Bible, it is by the power and command of God that they do so. So none of this necessarily speaks to whether fallen angels have any presence in the physical realm. Although I would agree that the reference to Satan appearing as an angel of light certainly suggests that they might. Hank states that this would cause great theological problems because then we couldn't even know if the resurrection of Christ was real or not since demons might have been appearing to deceive people (this strikes me as a weak argument as I cannot imagine God allowing such an outrageous blasphemy by any created being). All in all I tend to agree with you that Hank is probably wrong on this. I just tend to question myself and wonder if the reason I disagree with Hank is becasue I've grown up on so many stories of Ouji boards flying across rooms and Satanicly generated aparitions of dead relatives appearing, etc. Just wasn't sure if it was an SDA thing...... :-) Chris | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Think of the things that happened in the New Testament, Chris. The demons were certainly affecting people then. And think about when Saul saw "Samuel's ghost". My husband tells a story of an incident that happened in college. He and some friends had been playing around with ouija boards, etc. It was really just a joke to them. The playing around had escalated to them getting together in a dark room in a basement to have a seance. No windows, door shut, lighted candle in the middle of their circle. Everyone was seated about a round table, all holding hands, and there was no space left for anyone else to be in the room. One of them invited a spirit to appear. My husband said that he was shocked shortly afterward to feel "someone" poke him in the shoulder. Almost immediately afterward, a girl seated near to him screamed and collapsed on the table weeping. It was she who first said, "I felt someone poke me on the shoulder!" The group immediately gave up their games. But hubby tells me that you could see an immediate change in that girl from that night. There was a severe downward slide for her. Have a friend, a very level-headed sort who believed that ghosts were a quaint joke, and demons non-exsistent. She and her husband renovated an old mansion in a town nearby. She tells of a strange incident of spending a full day working with another lady hanging blinds on the 12 foot tall windows in a particular room...it was a troublesome and time consuming job. The next morning the blinds were no longer in that room, but in the room across the hall. Her son heard voices in the house when no one was present on several occassions. I believe their stories. My friend told me that she always felt oppressed when living in the house. Demons are definitely active in our world today. But, as Colleen said, we don't need to live in fear, or look for them around every corner. The Lord is greater. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Yes Lydell, I tend to agree that all these stories can't be explained away as mere superstition or hypersuggestibility. Interestingly enough, I've discovered that quite a large number of Bible scholars believe the Hebrew grammar in the account of Saul seeing Samuel suggest it really was the spirit of the real Samuel!!! They would say that he appeared to Saul not by anything the witch did (she was perhaps just as surprised), but through a sovereign act of God (despite the presence of the witch) as a judgement and condemnation on Saul for seeking the witch. Others would certainly agree that it was a demon even though the scripture just refers to it as simply "Samuel". Hard to say which is correct, but I certainly never heard the first opinion while in Adventism. Anyway, I just really enjoy discussing various views on things as there seems to be such interesting diversity out in the larger Christian world. Chris | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Over the weekend I read a disturbing article in our local paper. According to this article a major health care provider in the U.S. is studying shamanism as an alternative medicine for chronic pain. The article was about a practicing shaman from Takoma Park, Maryland. This is a description of how she "heals" "..She communicates with spirits, draws on the strength of "power" animals and journeys far distances without leaving the room." The article also mentions the name of one of her "students". This person is a health education teacher at a public school in Montgomery County, Maryland who "practices her shamanism regulary. " She says," the biggest thing I walked away with is the fact that shamnanism isn't a religion, it's a way of life." I did a search on the web on shamanism and one of the sites says that it is "THE OLD TIME RELIGION". Very pagan, and not ashamed to say so. The last line of the article says, "Shamanic healing typically involves four techiniques: gaining power, extraction, soul loss, and depossession." Pretty scary stuff. Either these "shamans" are pulling the wool over lots of people eyes, or evil is making many appearances disguising itself as a means to help and heal people. Here is the link to the article if anyone wants to read it and find out if THEIR HMO will be funding witch doctors, but not let THEIR husband see a specialist at Johns Hopkins!! Yes, I'm taking this a little personally! "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickednes in high places." Phil. 6:12 http://www.journalism.umd.edu/cns/wire/031126-Wednesday/HealingSpirit_CNS-UMCP.html | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Weren't all the attacks on Job very much an affect on the physical? He lost kids, animals, etc? Also, I've told my story on here before about having "something" sitting on my chest trying to convince me it was okay to commit suicide since there really wasn't a hell. But that brings up a different question from my ignorance again. B spends a lot of time talking about angels. It seems he has people come to his church to give testimonies about people "seeing" angels. This seems such a contradiction since he equally thinks spirits (our spirits) can't survive without a functioning physical body (even saying that people in a coma or in a vegetative state may have already lost their souls???? and he speculates God must have a physical body when I asked how he could function as spirit). I know God has angels around us, but God places them there...God is in control. B seems to act like the angels are in control doing their own "will" so to say. He even went so far as to say God consults angels before making decisions (doesn't that contradict scripture??) It is a very strange thought process to me, because I've never heard so much focus on the activities of Angels. Is that typical of Adventism? | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Melissa, I don't know that it would be entirely fair to say that a focus on Angels is typical in Adventism at large. However, EGW did write quite a bit about angels and their activities and even claimed to have an angel that stood near her writing chair almost all the time. Also Adventist call Jesus Michael the Archangel and see Him as the immediate leader of the angels in a direct sense (i.e. he rallied the angels to fight against Lucifer). So perhaps this is where some of B's focus on Angels comes from. In addition, I would say I don't think many SDAs have particularly good education on the spirit nature of God and angels. I certainly grew up thinking that angels were basically corporeal beings with bodies, but they were invisible to us, kind of like the invisible man only they can walk through walls as well. I did not understand them to be spirit beings. I still have questions today about exactly how they exist and function within the spiritual realm and how they do or don't affect things in the physical realm. These questions will probably remain unanswered within this lifetime though. Chris Chris | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I definately believe evil spirits can affect the natural. Look at all of the wiccan practices, levation is a very common practice with them, I don't see how that can be done natural. We lived in a old house where my 3 year old saw people and he had a remote truck that would race across the floor for no reason. My aunt was once clinically depressed and had orbs (blue lights) surrounding her quite often. I have another friend that was posessed by demons before she was saved and had these same lights follow her everywhere. When she got saved-in jail-she visibly had demons leave her. We do not need to fear these things at all, we have power over them in Christ but to say they aren't real is burying our head in the sand. I've heard many stories of people seeing angels too. Joyce Meyer tells a story of a man that turned a corner and his child fell out of the car, just then another car was racing toward the child and there was no time to stop. The father cried out, "Jesus!" because that was all the time he had. The approaching car stopped in it's tracks and the man driving it got out shaking and visible shaken. The father told him it was OK, the child wasn't hurt and everything was fine. The driver said, "But, you don't understand, I never saw the child and I never took my foot off the gas!" Wow. | ||
| Rochelleradclif (Rochelleradclif) Registered user Username: Rochelleradclif Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2003 |
I had an experience in college where my car was sliding in the snow down the hill of my school's entrance towards the path of two way traffic. I believed I was going to be hit so I shut my eyes, took my foot of the gas pedal and waited for the impact. Instead I felt my car hit something soft and found that my car had "spun" around to face up the hill in the median strip of the driveway. I was relieved, shaken, and grateful, but some of my fellow college students were very upset and said they had no idea how I ended up in the median strip further up the hill than where I had begun sliding. I feel certain that the Holy Spirit interceeded for angelic protection for me, because I didn't even have the presence of mind to call out to Jesus for help. I believe God provides people with this kind of help because evil spirits as well as dangerous circumstances do have the capacity to hurt us physically. Rochelle | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1862 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rochelle, I agree with you. The spiritual realm is real, and it's part of our lives because we have spirits. I'm coming to believe that the Adventist refusal to see humans as having spirits that are real, communicating, growing, dead or living realities is one of the greatest foundational heresies of the religion. If we were just like animals, we really could ignore the power and reality of the indwelling Holy Spirit and our vulnerability to evil. But we are spiritual as well as physical, and our relationship with Jesus is to be grounded in both spirit and truth. Praise God for the mystery of Jesus becoming human and of the mystery of making us in his image! Colleen | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2000 |
The snake in the Garden of Eden was a physical reality. The fruits of the trees were physical realities with physical and spiritual consequences. How does scripture view spiritualism and false prophets? The Bible says that they are real, observable in our world, and can even give true prophecies (Deuteronomy 13:1-3). Beware of Hank Hanegraaff. Not all snakes are of the legless variety. Steve | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2002 |
Steve, Hank's program had alot to do with helping me to personally discern truth from error within Seventh-day Adventism and make my exit more secure. What specific reason(s) do you have to say beware him? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 |
Freeatlast, Steve may have some more specific concerns than I can state, but I do know that Hank abruptly changed course with no explanation regarding Adventism. He did interview Mark Martin and spoke against it about five years ago, and he said he would run a five-day series on Adventism a few weeks later. The series never materialized, and now, when questioned, Hank says Adventists are heterodoxical Christians but are true Christians. He has never explained his complete change of position or attitude. What a wonderful thing, though, that his teaching nevertheless helped you to discern the truth. Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2001 |
Colleen, I agree that the soul sleep doctrine is detrimental and so intertwined in everything else. Bacchiocchi sent me the newsletter about this subject and had a quote in there about Ellen White saying how people would be deceived in the last days about the state of the dead. That is why they are so close-minded about even searching it out. I didn't read much past the first paragraph before deleting it. My mother was so mad when she asked if I believed that "nonsense about people going to heaven when they die" I said, "Absent from the body-present with the Lord" and she huffed and stomped out. I'm seeing that it conflicts with the atonement--because they don't see that Jesus has defeated death so that opens a huge can of worms! I still say if spirits die then why is the devil still alive? Do they think anything through?? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2003 |
Sabra, when you figure that one out, I would love to hear it. After weeks of prayer, I decided I could not address all of my conflicts within the SDA church, and felt prompted by God that the most important thing in a church was their presentation of the gospel, which I perceive is flawed, if not out and out heretical within the SDA church. So, that has been the primary thing I have focused upon in my discussions with B. His response has been an "indepth", "Biblical" study on the state of the dead/annihilation and he believes he has found things that the church has taught in error for centuries because there are multiple translations to a word and they have chosen the one they "want" to see rather than what scripture actually says when they choose the right one. (I read once from a Greek teacher, that a little knowledge of Greek is more dangerous than no knowledge of Greek since the context has so much to play in how things are translated, but I didn't go into it....) How can he relate a concern over the accuracy of the gospel in the same league with the state of the dead is beyond me. Even if I didn't believe being absent from this body meant instantaneously present with the Lord, it's not going to change how I live a single day of my life. It's not an issue that really affects my life. Of course, much of his focus has been a confusion to me. I still cannot understand what "Satan" has to gain by the teaching of "going to heaven when they die"... How does that benefit him whenever we go anymore than the simple fact we are going period? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, the reasons SDAs can equate the importance of the state of the dead (SOTD) with the importance of the Gosepel are many. Here are just a few: 1) Many SDAs could not tell you what the "Gospel" is exactly. Many SDA distinictives are often spoken of as being part of the "Gospel" that the Adventist church was raised to take to all the world. So for many SDAs, the SOTD is indeed part of the Gospel message. I know that sounds really strange, but I would guess others will back me up on this understanding. 2) For many SDAs, WHAT you believe is nearly as important as WHO you believe in when it comes to salvation. In other words, many SDAs (not all) would say that in the end there will be Christians who are lost because they have refused to join Adventism, have stayed in their protestant churches which are full of lies and false doctrine (like the consciouness of the spirit), and have therefore chosen to stay in Babylon to their damnation. 3) Adventist teach that the very first bold face out and out lie Satan ever told to humans was "You shall not surely die" (they fail to realize that Satan actually mixed some truth with falsehood here - a most lethal combination). They believe that the teaching "to be out of the body is to be with the Lord" is just a continuation of this Satanic lie. Therefore, anyone who teaches or believes such a doctrine is participating in Satanic deception. When you combine all these factors, it's a little easier to see why SOTD becomes a testing truth for SDAs. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 139 Registered: 7-2003 |
It just seems such a conflict to say on one hand it's all about the relationship with Christ (as B does say), then spend so much time condemning others for not being like them. I guess I will never be able to comprehend since I have not lived it. I did find it quite remarkable that several topics that B and I discussed in our last "talk" (such as EGW authority) were covered in this month's PROCLAMATION. Isn't it just cool how God does things like that? I am determined to understand if only to help my son somewhere in the future with his questions. Thanks for your patience and time in answering my questions. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, your insights and questions are really valuable. You ask and state things that many other people often wonder about and consider. Chris, I think you've really acurately summed up the SDA importance of the SOTD. (Love the acronym, by the way! Some things just have to be laughed at!) Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2002 |
Can demons affect the physical world? OF COURSE! And yet they never can go beyond what God allows in His sovereignty. Anyway, did anyone remember the text from Galatians chapter one in which Paul says that an angel might preach another gospel that is really no gospel at all? Of course he's being extreme, but yet behind his extreme warning is the obvious possibility that someone might see an "angel" that might definitely preach another gospel, which is not the gospel at all. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1237 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, Agapetos, such as Ellen's "handsome" demon friend. Melissa, in your old post above, you said: "It just seems such a conflict to say on one hand it's all about the relationship with Christ (as B does say), then spend so much time condemning others for not being like them." They say the first part to make you think they're Evangelical, but what they mean by the "relationship with Christ" being important is that you can only have a true/good relationship with Christ if you embrace their "truth," keep the Law, etc. In fact, for many Adventists, doing those things and reading Ellen White and/or other SDA literature, etc., basically IS the "relationship with Christ"! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 09, 2006) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 219 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Agapetos, Considering that both Islam and Mormonism were started by prophets who claimed to have received revelation from angels, maybe Paul was not being extreme after all. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2002 |
Also, I think it should be humbling for us to realize the question "Can demons affect the physical world?" is a fundamentally *Western* question. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 404 Registered: 10-2001 |
Did anyone watch that David Blain thing on TV? Freaky! He extracted some girls front tooth and then spit it back into place. Don't tell me demons can't affect the physical. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 220 Registered: 2-2003 |
What do you mean by that, AgapÈtos? I have heard that people in developing countries, like in Africa, have no problem believing in demons because they encounter their activities in their everyday lives. Then when they find out that Jesus is more powerful, they are relieved to be set free. Adrian | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2002 |
That's right, Adrian. In many countries the awareness of the spiritual (the spirit-world) is much higher than in the West, where things are more intellectual. We often focus on doctrinal knowledge and reasoning, but often have very little experiental awareness of the spiritual. (Shoot, usually even the word "spiritual" for us is a mere intellecutal concept). In other words, we often see everything through the lens of our heads. One of the many reasons that the Gospel has exploded in underground China is because *the missionaries left*. The Western missionaries there prior to the communist revolution tended to evangelize with doctrines, beliefs, head-reasoning basically. And they did have success. But when they were kicked out by Mao, the Gospel grew its own legs, so to speak. The Chinese already had an acute awareness of the spiritual. The missionaries hadn't experienced that for themselves, so they didn't know how to tap into it. But the Holy Spirit did. I think it should be humbling to us in the West because often we feel very advanced in Christianity, when in fact we have a lot to learn from our family in other countries. We have just as much bondage as they, and sometimes even more. One Western pastor told a brother in Africa, "We pray for you in your poverty" and the African pastor responded honestly, "Oh no, we pray for you in your prosperity." Tragically we've missed out on a lot of the joy the Spirit wants to give us because we have kept Him in an intellectual box... we've focused on the Scriptures and doctrine, but the living & breathing Spirit has often been foreign to us. I believe He's leading us through a humbling process to help us free of the limited image we've constructed of Him. |
