| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 695 Registered: 3-2004 |
Because I go to church services on Saturday evening I decided I wanted to find out how other Christians worship, so I decided to visit other churches on Sunday morning. This morning I visited a very charismatic church. I will make no judgements or any comments. I just want to know how others worship. Have any of you wanted to know this after you left the SDA church and its restrictive teachings? I pray that God will lead me as I visit these churches. This mornings experience was very interesting. They worship God in a different way than I do, but they are worshipping the same God. As an SDA I never would have visited a Sunday church service. I am so liberated as I visit others to see how they worship the same God I worship. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1057 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, Diana, I have attended quite a number of different churches. I tried the Nazarene several times. I do not like a lot of loudness in a church service. Doesn't matter to me how strutchered it is or reverant it is, I just don't like loudness. I like a service that is very formal, very structured, very traditional, with a lot of scripture and where we practice a litergy. So, as you can tell, the charasamatic churches are mostly not my cup of tea. The few times I have been in churches where tongues are done even that depends on the type of church it is if I feel comfortable in there or not. In the penticoastal churches I don't even go to them. No offense ment to anyone here in a personal way but those types of churches give me heebie-geebies. However, I frequently attend the local Catholic church on Monday evening for their praise and prayer service and over at the Catholic church they talk in tongues and it sounds like a heavenly deep kind of prayer. I like structure. I like the traditional Protatistant service. That would include the literagy, the prayers of the church, the Bible readings, the congreation reciting the Our Father out loud at every service, Communion, the candles, the insense, the whole schbang. I went to the Baptist church and I liked the people. They are very nice people. I still prefer the traditional Protestant service. This would include the Lutheran, the Prespertarian, somewhat the Methodist. I don't much agree with a lot of the Methodist church structure and some their things about the church as an organization but in like the order of service and the reverance within the church sancturary. I like it when I am in town on Saturday afternoons as then I can catch the Saturday evening service over at the mission. It is Catholic and the mission was built in the mid-1700's so the acustics are wonderful. The sound echos and the incense fills the deep long areas where the pews are. Our local diocey has a policy that is contrary to the official Catholic position in that the local diocey will not refuse communion to any bapitized Christian believer. I like churches with a lot of icons, states, banners, pictures, this and that. I like knowing when I am in the church that is is hollowed ground, it is truly the house where God dwells. Today at church the 7th graders had confirmation. It was so wonderful watching and listening to these young people declair their commitment to Jesus. It fills my heart with joy when the parents have their babies bapitized. It's so moving to know that those parents love their babies so much that they are making such a committment before God on behalf of their babies. I like the traditional service. | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Susan, You're more orthodox than I gave you credit for.(LOL) Yes, give me the incense, Choral chanting and liturgy. That's where I personally feel God's presence with us. No offence to those who have charismatic leanings! That's just the way I am, traditional. Thanks for putting in the bit about the babies being baptised. That thrills my heart too. The SDA's and traditional protestants have gone astray on that one. Yes, new converts must repent and be baptised, but those born into the church must baptise their babies. We don't wait till our kids understand what asprin is before we give it to them. If they're sick, we give it to them. It's our duty. The same with baptism. We're all born into a sin-sick world. Give your child the 'medication' as soon as possible. Anyway, Paul states in Colossians 2:10-12"and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." So Baptism has taken the place of Circumcision. And we all know that Jewish boys are circumsized at 8 days, then there's nothing wrong with baptizing babies. Thanks for your post God Bless Loren | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, Diana, Iíve spent over two years doing exactly as you suggest. Unfortunately, from my perspective, I didnít sense the Holy Spirit allowing me to stay at any one church during this time period so I have really felt quite homeless as to church fellowship although Iíve had the constancy of a small interdenominational group fellowship that has become like family. It seems that each of us are going to be led in different ways and families with children definitely need stability. Iíve been in many churches of many different denominations. Susan, you and I are almost polar opposites because God has rewired me to prefer the more exuberant services. However, on Easter I attended a very high church liturgical Lutheran service and greatly appreciated the opportunity to experience the type of service that you enjoy on a weekly basis. Now, looking back Iím thankful for all my visiting. Iím part of local leadership for an international ministry and weíre from many different denominations. It was interesting when we were discussing where to rent a facility and how different churches would view different choices. I was the one who had a grasp on the region because everyone else is just staying at their own church. Inside I was really laughing, finding Godís sense of humor so amazing that he used a ěformerî who never attended Sunday services to moving me to have a feel for the heartbeat of the region. That is so not me and so God. Do any of you read George Barna or get his e-mail updates? He is the Gallup poll of the Christian world. I recently read his book about the new generation coming upóthe one after the baby busters. They arenít going to be attending church in the same manner as we would expect. There is shifting within the entire Church, the body of Christ, right now. Walls are breaking down between denominations. Parachurch ministries fulfill a unique roll in lots of training, equipping and high profile events. Susan gave an example of the blurring of expectations when she mentioned the charismatic Catholics. A recent example for me was I was attending a United Methodist church in my new community. (I recently moved 25 miles away so that shifts my church attendance.) At the end of the praise and worship when the music was playing softly, I was surprised to hear someone in the audience loudly speak out a word in tongues. I was thinking that quite interesting, given it was a Methodist church, and I was wondering to myself if they understood 1 Corinthians 14. Sure enough, without hardly a secondís delay, someone gave a corporate interpretation. I find this more ěPentecostalî than Pentecostal churches that Iíve attended. What was also interesting was this congregation looked so ěAdventistî in many ways. Lots of older members, quite conservative worship, order of service much like one in an Adventist church. Finally Iím sensing that there is a local congregation where I can settle down. Itís one that I personally would never have picked because it is a denomination and given my baggage, Iíve not wanted another denomination. I donít know if Iíll ever become an actual member or not, but I do want to get involved. Perhaps Iím going to settle down because my dh is getting closer to getting out of Adventism and he needs something stable. All the weeks of visiting I was alone so I could move just as the Holy Spirit directed. If at all possible, I would strongly encourage you to do visiting within your communities. It just gives you so much of a broader perspective of what God is up to. Recently I heard a pastor say something along the line that pastors shouldnít just say they are pastor of the xyz church, but that they are ěco-pastors of over 2 million people in our region.î I greatly respect those who look past the four walls of their own church and have a heart for their city. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 562 Registered: 7-2003 |
Diana, I would not limit it to just those leaving adventism. I think all of us that have grown up in one tradition find it odd to visit other traditions and see the service run differently. Whether it is said or implied or just assumed because that's the way it's always been done, people think the way they "know" is the"right" way to worship. When our church started having Saturday sevices, my 11-year old didn't think there was a problem with going on Saturday, but thought Sunday was when we were "supposed" to go. No one had ever told him that, it was an assumption he made about our traditions. As Praise God was mentioning, when I was in my teens, my mother didn't go to church, so the only "religioius" instruction I got was from a parachurch organization that had a "club" within my school and on Saturay nights all the metro clubs got together for a rally and it was very much similar to a church service. The nice thing about it was that it was interdenominational, so many many churches brought busloads of kids, but it wasn't the same as a church youth group, i've recognized more as I've gotten older than I did as a kid. But it was a great alternative for me that didn't require parent involvement. Though I grew up in a mostly baptist environment, when I did finally start attending a church on my own, it was an Assembly of God...because that's where most of my friends went. I didn't care about traditions or services, I wanted to hear the Bible with my friends. I have years clocked in a baptist church, but I've been fortunate enough to have never been told we are the only Christians or the "right" Christians. Usually, the opposite...you don't know by the name on the door what''s inside. You have to judge each church by it's fruit. But I remember the first time my very baptist mother came with me to the AOG church. I loved that the people were so open with their praise, and that's what she hated most. Some of it is comfort zone, I think, but also some of it is the willingness to let the Spirit lead you in worship in different ways. I like least repetitive phrases or litergies. But I am thankful that God only asks for worship in "spirit and truth" which allows many methods as long as it is sincere. Though it has stretched my comfort zone, we are using far more dance than we used to. But it is tasteful and with a song relevant to the sermon. It is something to see these women using their gifts to worship God ... and that's how they see it, so who am I to say God doesn't accept "that" kind of worship?? But some of that comes with maturity. I'm still growing.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 878 Registered: 12-2003 |
I always loved formal church services, great organ and choral music, etc. I actually believed that anything less than great hymns, and great music was disrespectful toward God. (I guess that was part of my legacy as a music major at an SDA college!) I've actually astonished myself at how much I love praise and worship music now. Yes, my early tradition still causes me to prefer the music to be more melodic and less distorted, but I love the worship band and the lively to contemplative praise songs we sing at church. I realize that I now have something personal to praise God for as opposed to only reverencing Him as transcendent. I also love the fact that music in our church is participatory instead of performance-based. (No more regular performances of people singing solos while the audience sits critically and decides how good the performance is.) The thing I value the most about a church, though, is the depth and quality of the Bible teaching. If the Biblical messages aren't there, I need to find a place that has them. I do want to make one comment about infant baptism. While I do not believe it is wrong, it does not (as Loren pointed out) replace believer's baptism. The Bible does not say that in the new covenant children become part of God's covenant people by being baptized as infants. There is no Biblical precedent for that. Baptism is for those who publicly profess their loyatly to Jesus. We become "born again" and chldren of God by accepting Jesus--and often very young children understand Him and make that commitment. Baptism has no salvific function. I do, however, believe there is great value in dedicating ones' children to God when they are infants and committing oneself to rearing them in the knowledge and instruction of the Lord. Having a dedication service in church makes such an event public, and one is accountable to the body for the commitment. In addition, the church body becomes part of the commitment to support the parents. Even dedication of infants is not a Biblical mandate, but there was the precedent of Mary and Joseph taking Jesus to the temple to be circumcised and, while there, Simeon and Anna blessed the baby and praised God for His faithfulness. I know (because there was a faculty member at the school where I taught who was a member of the reformed church and believed in infant pabtism) that many peole believe baptizing babies is the way a child become part of God's covenant people. Such a concept, though, is not modelled or mentioned or even hinted at in the New Testament. Again, I don't believe it's necessarily wrong, but I don't believe it carries any particular value except for the aspect of dedicating the baby to God, and it does not replace believer's baptism. Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2004 |
I prefer the more charismatic church services myself. I love loud traditional gospel singing (in the tradition of James Cleveland, Andre Crouch, Fred Hammond, etc) and loud preaching(in the tradition of T.D. Jakes, etc.)and loud AMENS from the congregation. (who knows, maybe its because my parents, before they became sda, were southern baptist-maybe its never left my blood. Its just too bad and a tragedy that they didn't stay southern baptist). At least southern baptists don't follow any false prophets. | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 641 Registered: 7-2000 |
Interesting how the Lord works with us as we go along. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church and fully expected when we left Adventism that a Baptist church was where we would end up. Thought I was very comfortable with the style of worship. Instead the Lord led us to a charismatic type church (Vineyard) and I've been surprised to discover that this, rather than the traditional, is how I best express worship to the Lord. I go back to visit in a Southern Baptist, or other, traditional church now and it seems confining and dry. | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2000 |
I Talk with God, Jesus Christ, anywhere, anytime and for what ever reason I have. If it be due to thanks, I thank Him. If it be due to petition, I petition Him. If it be because this world is a hellhole and I just need to sing for Him and His Promises to us, then I sing and sing aloud I do. If it be for His guidance, that too will I pray. If it be because of a heavy heart, I turn to Him. If it be because I woke up this morning, then I know without a doubt, there is a reason set by God Almighty Himself. When on my deathbed, I shall thank Him, Worship Him, Sing from my heart and know that I'm soon to meet Him. And as I type this, I know He is Watching and Reading my heart. For that, I know He Loves me and there is no doubt in my mind that I love Him. Amen and Hallelu-Yah Lord Jesus, our Christ. I look to that Great and Final Day for He is my Justice and my Vengeance. I love you Father. Denise Gilmore | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1059 Registered: 11-2002 |
Loren, Contrary to what the SDA's would say has been the most devisive issure in Christianity over the centuries (They would say it's the issue of Sabbath, I'm sure.), the actual most polorizing issue that has caused divisions is that of how and when to bapitize. My Bible says all sinners need to be bapitized. Have you ever noticed how selfish and self-centered a baby is?! I had four. I sure noticed. Loren, we have no Orthodox churches at all in my area. The nearest one is nearly 100 miles from where I live. Thanks to you I now want to visit there sometime soon. I definately will. | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Susan You've been up late! I'm at the office now and it's lunch hour. I KNOW how selfish babies are! And they never stop either as they grow. My 19yo son just called me and asked if he could have a camera cell phone. I told him that I'd love one too, but I'll have to make do with the one I've got till another time and so must he. He must learn that he has to buy such things with money he's earned on his own. Back to baptism. Time and again we're told in Acts that when there was a conversion, the whole household was baptised (That would include the children and the slave's children too - remember it was still the Roman Empire!) The Catholic church only allows first communion at 7 yrs, but orthodox believe in giving it to the babies as soon as they can take in some "soggy bread". Communion (The 'Mysteries' as the early church called it) is very interesting. Did you know that the Orthodox priest mixes boiling water into the wine to symbolise the 'water & blood' that flowed from our Lord's side? When I spoke to a PH.D historian about there being nothing in the bible about mixing water with Communion wine, he told me that in about the time Christ was on earth, only barbarians drank undiluted wine. Apparently, as he joked, the host of a home set the tone of a party by how much water he added to the wine! So in actual fact, the wine on the table of the Last Supper would have been diluted with water too. It's also a logical thing to note that Jesus told us that nobody adds new wine to old wine-skins. Why, because they're going to ferment, and burst the old skin. A 'new' wine-skin would be able to stretch. It's also inconceivable to believe that wine did not ferment from harvest time, (About September-October) till April!!! I think you live in Calif, so you may know a bit about wine growing. I grew up in Cape Town, the centre of wine-growing in South Africa. BTW, it's great to enjoy my glass of wine without feeling guilty about it(LOL) Seriously though, I'm praying for you all in the USA today that God's Will be done. And let me know when you've been to an orthodox service. Be prepared to stand for a while! Our churches usually don't have pews. Read this link before you go as well, you'll be well prepared. It's a humorous look at orthodoxy. http://www.frederica.com/orthodox/o12th-mrb.html God Bless Loren (If you want I'll ask Richard and Colleen to give you my mailing address. Then we can really chat.) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 158 Registered: 2-2003 |
Interesting subject, I suppose a lot depends on taste, and background too. I was brought up Baptist, and we would sometimes go to Methodist when away on holiday. About two months after I got saved, my Mum gave me a book on the charismatic renewal (for some unknown reason I still have not been able to figure). I soon got baptised in the Spirit. My parents were rather surprised, but did not oppose this. Then we joined AOG when we moved to Wales. This was not a wild Pentecostal but spiritual gifts were taught and exercised in a Biblical way as per 1 Corinthians 12-14, so I assumed all Pentecostals were like that. Well, not really, as I found out later. So I guess I agree with you Lydell, that even Baptist seems a bit dry now, though I enjoy the Bible exposition, which can be a lot better than you get in AOG. I agree too, that barriers are breaking down. I was back in my home town this summer, and visited a new church there. There was a section of the service which was left open for gifts, and several people prophecied, in a very quiet, orderly manner. It turned out it was a Baptist church. I guess my taste is modern style, lively worship, with orderly use of gifts of the spirit. But I don't like shouting preachers at all. I think if you have something worth saying, you don't need to scream to say it. Often seems like the louder the sermon, the less the content. And I don't like some of the excesses, like everyone falling on the floor and barking. Just seems like a lot of hype. There are nine gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12, so why not stick to them? I can't stand liturgical type services at all though. That's the sort of thing that gives me the creeps. I guess we are all different. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 159 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Loren, I guess you may have figured that my background and my views are just about as far away from Eastern Orthodox as you can possibly get. Anyway, I should just like to mention a couple of thoughts (without getting at you personally of course - LOL). The type of meeting I like, is one in which we interact with God. We speak to him in praise, worship and prayer, and He speaks to us through gifts of the Spirit and through the preaching of the word. It is part of that "relationship" thing I mentioned on another thread. So if one day, God decided not to turn up to the meeting, we would all notice at once. It seems to me, that if you have a fixed liturgy, and God decided not to turn up, then no-one would notice and it would be business as usual. That seems like a problem for me. Another problem for me is when people come up with endless arguments for why they do things according to their particular church tradition, and not according to the clear teaching of the Bible. Sprinkling babies is just a case in point. It is not taught in the Bible. The idea that "there must have been babies in the household" is really not very convincing, because the command "repent" is adressed to the household as well, not just the "be baptised." There is also a problem with the circumcision argument. Under the Old Covenant, the Jews were God's chosen people, and people were Jews by natural birth, so they received the seal of circumcision following natural birth. However, no-one is a Christian by natural birth, even if born to Christian parents. One becomes a Christian by the new birth, so repentance is necessary. One then undergoes the sign of entering the covenant, baptism, following repentance, and this is what the Bible teaches, so why not just do it? I'll get off my high horse now, for a while. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 170 Registered: 6-2004 |
I don't think there is a right or wrong way to honor God as far as church services go, be it orthodox or contemporary. The Bible says that those who worship him, do so in spirit and in truth. I personally prefer the Calvary Chapel style, but it's not for everyone I agree. If not, just go where you will grow. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1061 Registered: 11-2002 |
Loren, Do you listen to the music by John Michael Talbot? Yes, he is Catholic and not ortodox but you may like his wonderful monk chanting and singing. I attended a concert of his last year. It was one of the high points of my year. You can go to search on the Internet and put in his name and get his website and order his music. He also has written numerous devotional books and a very nice book about his faith in Jesus. BTW, I took my elderly SDA mom with me to hear Mr. Talbot in concert. It was at a Catholic chucharound 40 miles from my home. She loved it. I am so thnkful I could give my mom a special evening to enjoy Chistian music beyond what she hears on that Mark Findley program. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1062 Registered: 11-2002 |
Doc, Did you know that the early SDA's rolled around on the floor barking and acting like dogs in their worship? Go to some of the other former-type SDA websites and you can read about it and one website even as a drawn picture of what it was like. We baptise our babies because they are born with origional sin. Doc, awhile back a lady was visiting the Lutheran church where I generally attend. After the service we meet in the social hall for treets. I sat at the table with this visitor. She said she was looking for a church she could attend weekly. I can only guess the Lutheran way of worship is not what she was looking for becaue at the table she very nicely asked if Lutherans practice the gift of tongues. One lady sitting at our table smiled at the visitor and told her, "I've never seen that happen in a Lutheran church and I have been Lutheran all my life. We are known though to occasionally break out in Norwegion." The lady never came back. I hope she foud a place to worship that she is comfortable with. | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 643 Registered: 7-2000 |
Funny story Susan! Aren't you glad the Lord loves all our styles of worship? And doesn't it just completely make sense that we would have different styles considering the vast differences in our personalities? Worship in heaven is going to be interesting, isn't it! | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2001 |
Diana, I don't know what type of church you went to. Some charismatics can get to be a little much but at this point, I'd rather a person be on fire for God and act a little drastic than sit in the pew and yawn. I think for the most part they are sincere and just worshipping God the way they want to. I love my church because it is so balanced that way. You can shout, stand, raise hands, dance, cry, whatever, but people aren't running the isles or jumping the pews. It's free but in order. I was so afraid of being deceived when I left Adventism that I just worried about what everyone was doing and speaking in tongues and all of that until a pastor told me not to worry, that God promised He would never leave or forsake me and I was safe! At that point I realized that God is a lot stronger than Satan and He wont LET me be deceived if I trust in Him. Praying you find the perfect church for you that God can best use you in. Sabra | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 700 Registered: 3-2004 |
I am not looking for another church. I just want to see how other Christians worship. As an SDA there was the very formal service where people were afraid to sing out and then there are the celebration churches. But mostly, because I, as an SDA, was discouraged from meeting other Christians and going to their church because they were not Sabbath keepers and were not going to heaven because they did not have the seal of the Sabbath. So now that I am better rooted in Jesus, I want to see how others worship Him. I like the church I am at but if God wants to move me, all He has to do is tell me so and I will go. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Flyinglady, God's not going to tell you to move unless you're in danger of your soul. If you're happy where you're at, stay with it and serve our Lord and Savior the way he directs you. Doc, Matthew 18:20 - "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." No matter where we worship, our Lord is with us. If he were not, we'd notice, because we came to meet with Him. Susan, Thanks for answering the question for me. I couldn't said it better. Yes, I like John Michael Talbot, but I must still get a CD of his. Have you heard of Hildegaard von Blingen? She was a 11th Century Nun who wrote music for the by then weatern Catholic Church, with the Pope's approval. Anyhow, I discovered an album by her the other day which is just up my street. But of course, each of us on the forum have their own taste. Thank the Lord we're all different. Otherwise how boring this world would be! God Bless Loren | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 163 Registered: 2-2003 |
Susan, Yes, I have read about the antics of the early Adventists. Most interesting. I suppose a lot came from the Methodists, and they were pretty wild in the early 19th century. I guess we will just have to agree to differ on baptism. It seems to me the Reformation churches just took it over from Catholicism without rethinking it, and then starting killing off the more radical Anabaptists who decided to take "Sola Scriptura" somewhat more seriously. I know the Catholic church teaches that infant baptism is to nullify "original sin," but you would be hard pushed to prove that from the Bible either, it comes from Augustine. One of the ladies in my church once asked me to do a Bible study on original sin, and I found I just couldn't do it. I looked at all the usual proof texts, and none of them were really conclusive. I have had to "shelve" that one too, for the time being. I haven't decided how to deal with it yet, but how about this proof text, "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life to me brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death." (Romans 7: 9-11). This would seem to support the idea that we are born with a tendency to sin, which everyone succumbs to, as we know "all have sinned," but not necessarily born guilty of Adam's sin. Basically, it is yet another of those "disputed areas." Things are complicated, aren't they? Loren, Mat 18: 20 - great verse! Good that we agree about something. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 71 Registered: 1-2004  |
I wonder where Loren went? I miss hearing from him. Especially now that I've been to an Orthodox church a few times! I just had to comment on this subject of worship; If you attend the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox church, and then read certain passages of the book of Revelation, you can just about picture yourself there in heaven with St John. Because the worship described there is liturgical worship! You can hear the interaction between the different groups of people just like you hear the congregation, choir, and priest, in the liturgy. Not to mention incense, the "cloud of witnesses" (icons of the saints all around), the vestments, the altar, the lamps... How many Orthodox does it take to change a lightbulb? The Orthodox would answer "Change??" Their liturgy hasn't changed in 1600 years...  Jeremiah |
