| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 242 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm not trying to be insensitive to anyone. I did eat pork chops when I was growing up. Tonight, for the first time in at least 20 years, I ate the most delicious pork chop. I am grateful and praise God that I could have this wonderful dinner that I had tonight. Matthew 15:11 Jesus stated: "What goes into the mouth does not make anyone unclean; it is what comes out of the mouth that makes someone unclean." Pork chops are very healthy. Here is the nutritional information: http://www.thepigsite.com/recipes/Default.asp?AREA=News&display=137 In fact, I liked it so much, I might buy stocks: http://www.investorguide.com/stock-charts.cgi?ticker=PORK I think I dated a Davidian once in the Seventh-day Adventist church when I was younger - really! Pork chops are safer. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2246 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lynne, It feels to good to know what the Bible really says. I am so much freer and my relationship with God is so much better. It is about what I eat but how I relate to God. He is always awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 907 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bottom line is that we are no longer thinking that God is so petty that he would keep a believer out of heaven because of what he eats or wears, or whether or not she danced or attended a movie. Don't tell me I was the only one who considered that all of those rules and regulations painted God into a petty diety. When I was 10 my neighbor asked me to attend their Wednesday evening service at her church. We were about the same age, and it was a singspiration type of service centered around the youth in her church. My neighbor was a Mexican girl, and she attended a Baptist church I think it was, and the service was all in Spanish. I couldn't understand a thing that was said all night, but I did understand the air of love and acceptance that was there, and the fact that those kids loved Jesus. I was amazed because their church was supposed to be one of the "fallen" churches. I just sat there soaking it all in and wishing that there could be that much palpable love for God in my own church. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 908 Registered: 7-2004 |
By the way, Lynne, I'm glad you were able to savor your meal the way you did. I never have been able to develop a taste for pork, but I do love seafood. It is so true that the most evil and foul things can come out of people, even those who are extra careful about what goes in and how they keep things all cleaned up on the outside. I don't care how hard we try to clean things up, or ourselves up, we will never be able to clean up our lives the way Jesus will with just the twinkling of an eye! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1029 Registered: 10-2004  |
Amen, Belva. In fact, the harder we try to clean ourselves up ("keep the Law"), we're just gonna get dirtier and dirtier! But praise God that Jesus has "saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5 NASB)! We have been washed and are clean forever in His sight because of the blood of Jesus! Now we are simply called to walk by the Spirit. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2247 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, Jeremy, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2107 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeremy, The Janurary issue of The Signs of the Times has a really spun article on if or not "the law" is required. You may be able to read it on the Interner. If not, please get one. Basically the author of this article says that some Christians say the law is done away with and Jesus and grace is what they use as their evidence the reality is that Jesus, grace and the entire N.T. has a lot of laws, and he goes on to list things such as doing good to ones neighbor, feeding the hungry and other basic humantarian topics Jesus mentioned. As well as healing the sick and so on. The author indicated all these are laws given in the N.T. and it is wrong to insist on accepting the N.T. laws for a Christian while saying O.T. laws are invalid. It's interesting the way the author spins and twists and distorts just about every concept tsught by Christians. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 919 Registered: 7-2004 |
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit acts within us and through us. It is the literal fulfillment of God's promise to write His laws upon the heart rather than upon stone tables. There is a certain tension in the NT to make an effort not to list out laws, but rather encourage NT Christians to live in harmony with each other and their communities. Ironically, when one behaves in that manner, the Law of God is displayed in the lives of the believers. Widows and orphans are fed, the sick and elderly are cared for, people are kind and forgiving, and they don't mess around with someone else's wife or husband. What is more, the closer one becomes to Christ, the less tempting any or all of those actions become. It is a natural progression. The most important part of that equation is the part that I've mentioned last, but it is the groundwork and stalwart of any Christian relationship. I'm not trying to list out rules and laws, but instead think of them as the natural outflow of a sanctified, Holy Spirit led life. What I'm trying to say is that it is a tedious, unnecessary reiteration to be sitting down with the law and reading it over to see if there are any areas where one has become remiss. The truly Spirit-led Christian is a walking law of God. Of course, we are all at various stages of that ultimate, but we are focussed in the same general direction. Any time we try to "do" the law ourselves, we are saying to the Holy Spirit that He is simply not doing an adequate job for us so we are trying to help him out a bit. Jesus Is Enough Belva | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2004 |
When I was in college, and met my then-SDA boyfriends overweight, out of shape parents who lectured sternly on the evils of eating meat, I was incredulous. I haven't met a group of people who ate more cheese, salt, butter, and highly processed foods (fake meat) than those who ate at the Walla Walla College Cafeteria. I was usually the only one going through the small "health food" line at one end of the cafeteria, eating fresh veggies and tofu rather than the ever-popular 3 day old "potato puff", which was mashed potatoes slathered with butter, sour cream, and a layer of cheese. I think the "health message" of the SDAs would be more believable and better received if the bulk of them actually ate healthy. -t- | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 278 Registered: 5-2004 |
When I was in college, and met my then-SDA boyfriends overweight, out of shape parents who lectured sternly on the evils of eating meat, I was incredulous. I haven't met a group of people who ate more cheese, salt, butter, and highly processed foods (fake meat) than those who ate at the Walla Walla College Cafeteria. I was usually the only one going through the small "health food" line at one end of the cafeteria, eating fresh veggies and tofu rather than the ever-popular 3 day old "potato puff", which was mashed potatoes slathered with butter, sour cream, and a layer of cheese. I think the "health message" of the SDAs would be more believable and better received if the bulk of them actually ate healthy. -t- | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3323 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ha--great point, Tanya. I've OFTEN pondered the same disjunction in Adventist talk and practice. California, again, is a bir rarefied when it comes to Adventism; here the disjunction is not so much that people eat their cheese and ice cream as that they're likely to eat meat and drink alcohol when they think it's "safe" from judging eyes. Loma Linda Adventists are more likely to look trim and fit than are a lot of Adventists in less metropolitan areas. There is a continual awareness of the "health message" here--what with the School of Public Health and its ongoing research and health studies. The "secret lives" of the Adventists, though, are likely to be different from the public ones. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 267 Registered: 6-2001  |
Yes I don't completely trust that Adventist Health study presented awhile back because of the tendency to self-select. If you were a fat or sickly Adventist would you participate in a study if you knew your participation would make your church look bad? For it to be a truely objective study you have to have some way of including the imperfect specimens. Imperfectly, Hannah | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2118 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tealeaves, In my community we have the VIP club. VIP stands for Vegetarian Inclined People. I go to the monthly gatherings frequently. In fact, the local SDA church offers their social hall to this group free of any charges for the one evening per month it meets. However, very few SDA's come to those meetings. Generally only 3-4 SDA's come to those meetings. The potluck that is held first at the start of the meeting is vegan, no animal products at all, even if honey is used the dish is to be labled. There is no refined sugar or flour used in any of the dishes. The food is totally different from what is served at a weekly SDA after church potluck. Then following the potluck is a guest speeker who has something to do with vegetarianism or health or animal rights, etc. There is usually a good turnout of folks, around 25-30 usually show up but as I said very few are SDA and I can only figure it is because the food and the diversity of the folks are just too different for the SDA's to fit into their comfort zone. | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lynne, I looked at the site in your post. Needless to say, that is placed on the Web BY those that do indeed have a vested (financial?) interest in the product/service. As a Marketing Instructor, I can tell you that we can find a plethora of ways to make ANYTHING look healthy/useful/frugal/worth it/safe/harmful, etc. Heck, I am sure there are places/webbies out there that can find a way to portray bottled water as "bad for you" or not as healthy for you as fruit juice! In some way or fashion, this is and will always be the case. Again, easy for me to say, I am a non-meat eating vegetarian that does enjoy cheese and other dairy. Still, when it comes to eating anything that used to move, that is where I draw my dietary line. This will be a topic of discussion for Christ and I. (haha) Eric | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1273 Registered: 7-2003  |
As for biased reporting, if an SDA or PETA is sponsoring vegetarian propoganda, do you really think it's more accurate? It's funny how accurate people think something is when they agree with it. None of us are purely objective, especially about what we eat. Unless and until scripture teaches against eating meat, it's really neither one's business nor place to judge (Romans 14). And scripture DOES call it a demonic doctrine to teach against eating any food God created (1 Timothy 4). Man's knowledge or God's? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 260 Registered: 10-2005 |
Eric - You are right. I know a bit about marketing myself. The Seventh-day Adventist church is good, aren't they? I'm just one of those very non judgmental types that attended a few churches over the years. I was careful to not look bad, like wearing jewelry other than my wedding ring. I knew there were those in church who did not approve of my wedding ring. But to me, and what I felt God thought of it, I was fine with my ring. And anyone who would be against it would be pathetic to me. I had some realness in me. Once certain people in the church got to know me, they knew I was very non judgmental (as are many college students in the church), they would flash their hidden bottles of wine and whisper shhh, I don't want so and so to know. Or they would eat kentucky fried chicken when I came around. Lots and lots of people I've known... Also, about 20 years ago, a pastor and his wife (who were overweight) used to push me to eat meat, as I was a vegetarian. They just thought I was too thin and cared about me. They brought turkey, chicken and beef dinners to my apartment near the church when I was sick. I didn't have too much money, so I ate it and was grateful. But they ate meat and ate plenty of ice cream. I remember there were a lot of people giving them a hard time. All these fights and conflicts... Over what? There are a lot of real people in the church and many who want to be real, but don't understand that they've been duped into false christianity. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 279 Registered: 5-2004 |
What just made me want to scream about the whole food issue was that it is just plain SO NOT the point of being a Christian. No one have ever been saved by a "good diet". If people were boats, and the church is supposed to be a lighthouse warning people of danger, then the SDA church is a self-appointed "hall monitor", giving free advice on barnacle removal and passing out tickets for dirty hulls and less-than-polished brass fittings. Meanwhile, what people really need is a lighthous to point them away from TRU danger and towards the One who can give their engine a good overhaul! -tanya- | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 932 Registered: 7-2004 |
So true, so true. Spoken by someone who has had her larder inspected by the lard police. I'll never forget the dressing down I got from one of those dear souls who decided I needed to be told what a terrible disservice I was doing my family by feeding the Bisquick instead of some other brand she was promoting. Hadn't I noticed that Bisquick "might" include fats from animal origin. Horrors! It sure didn't keep them from munching through pies I brought to potlucks. "What makes your crust so flaky?" I had to bite my tongue, because my secret was to use a blend of butter and shortening. That meant that for some of the more serious vegetarians I might just as well have used lard. By the way, I've heard that lard makes the fakiest crusts of all! See, you would think that if I was attending the last word in Christianity's church I'd have had something other than food to discuss. I've known whole groups of people that wanted to talk about nothing else. "Sister White says we have to stop eating everything of animal origin or we won't be good enough to be translated to heaven after the time of trouble. If you can't be translated, then you'll just have to die and wait for the resurrection." Oh really, let me see... get chased around all over the planet with the threat of having your head lopped off for a whole year, or take a little dirt nap that I will hardly even notice...which will it be? Um, I think I'll take choice number two! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 373 Registered: 7-2004  |
I never did get what the difference was between whether we got to be translated or resurrected. Either way, heaven is still the end result. If Paul had been a vegetarian from birth, would he still be alive today to get translated? Maybe God sent EGW to give this health message because He realized there wouldn't be anyone to translate if people didn't get turned into vegetarians. And we couldn't have that happen, because 1 Thessalonians says some will be translated. Just looks like more mind control to me. You'd better do this (or not do that), or there will be consequences! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1059 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually, I believe EGW taught that if you aren't vegetarian/vegan then you will be lost--I don't know if she said you would die, but she did say that you would not be perfect if you ate meat, and therefore you would be lost. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3357 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'd like to find the sources of her statements, Jeremy. I learned that she said if we ate meat, we wouldn't be alive to see Jesus come. Good points, Raven--probably the reason dying before the second coming is so horrifying to Adventists is the problem of annhilation. Who wants to be annhilated, even for a short time? (What if somehow you couldn't be completely restored? Besides, if nothing exists, how, then, can it be YOU at the resurrection? It's a new creation who THINKS it's you!) Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1061 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wait, if eating meat means that you'll die before the second coming, then how will there be any meat-eating wicked people alive at the second coming??? Let me see what I can find in EGW's writings. Here are some quotes:
I could not find anything that says that if you eat meat you will die before the second coming. Notice, however, that in that last quote she says that in order to be saved you have to be sinless even if you die! (And in the quote before that, she calls meat-eating a sin.) So I just don't understand why SDAs say that you only have to be perfect if you're alive when Jesus comes--EGW says you have to be perfect in order to die even! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3358 Registered: 12-2003 |
Really good observations and questions, Jeremy. Thank you for the quotes. I'm now beginnng to wonder if I ever "was shown" the Ellen quotes from which I learned my belief about eating meat and translation. Perhaps it was a derived statement from larger passages such as your third from the last quote above, Jeremy. I know I learned this belief in elementary or jr. high school. I remember agonizing over it when I was 12-ish, wanting to eat turkey at Thanksgiving, but then feeling guilty. Believing that eating turkey was not forbidden so as not to be technically a sin, but that it was sort of an "allowed sin", I waffled back and forth a lot about what to do about my handful of forays into flesh foods during my formative years! Somewhere I definitely learned the idea. Colleen | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 52 Registered: 6-2005 |
I posted about this awhile back, but my grandma was at a seminar put on by a guy from Amazing Facts who used Isaiah 66:17 to say that those who eat pork will not go to heaven. What does that verse mean? I have also heard Peter's vision used by those who say it is okay to eat unclean meat now. I've always understood his vision as symbolic of salvation not being just for Jews. I know you'll all have some good answers for me! I know that meat eating is not a salvational issue, but I just would like to hear other explanations on these two texts. Thanks. Julie  | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1276 Registered: 7-2003 |
Julie, I think in the same way the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story (Jesus wouldn't use a lie to teach a truth), you can say the same thing about his visions. I don't think the primary purpose of the vision is to teach about meats specifically, but where it does reach to unclean things in general, it does. No one can doubt that the gentiles used to be considered unclean. Why they can go from being unclean to clean, but meats cannot is one of those great selective theology examples. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3360 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great explanation, Melissa. I love your last sentence: "Why they can go from being unclean to clean, but meats cannot is one of those great selective theology examples." Isaiah 66 is used to "prove" a lot of things, including eternal Sabbath-keeping. Just as there will be no night in heaven (Rev., 21 and 22) so there can be NO seventh day, so the reference to pork has to mean something bigger than eating pig. The reference to Sabbath-keeping (and New Moon keeping) makes sense in the light of Jesus fulfilling all those things. For eternity all thesaved will worship and honor Jesus. Days will no longer be an issue; Heóthe one whom the Sabbath foreshadowedówill be worshiped by all humanity. The reference to pork also makes sense in a NT framework. In other words, no one who is unclean (defined many times in the NT as those who are immoral, impure, greedy, slanderous, liars, stealers, etc.) will be in heaven. To be in heaven, people have to have Christ's righteousness covering them. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1062 Registered: 10-2004 |
Adding to what Melissa said about Acts, if you continue reading the story, in chapter 11, verse 3 it says that the Jews were upset with Peter, "saying, 'You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.'" (NASB.) So Peter obviously understood that he was now able to eat non-kosher foods. This is also made clear in Galatians 2, where not only does it say again that Peter ate with the Gentiles, but Paul referred to what Peter was doing as "liv[ing] like the Gentiles"--so he was obviously not keeping kosher. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 07, 2006) |
