| Author |
Message |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 9:59 pm: |     |
Hi, Russkellyphd. Post number 1 means you're new too. Welcome! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3379
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:10 pm: | |
Hi, Russkellyphd! Welcome; we're glad to have you here. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you!
Colleen |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 127
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:40 pm: | |
Welcome Russell,
Are you the the Russell Kelly who wrote "Exposing Seventh-Day Adventism". Bob Sanders of Truth or Fables has it advertised on his newsletter. I have not yet read it but I'm sure I will.
Dane |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2293
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 7:21 pm: | |
Russkellyphd,
Welcome to FAF. Let us know more about yourself, when you are ready to do so.
Diana |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 428
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:41 pm: | |
Although it was fermented, it was not distilled. I think that limits the alochol to about 5% for natural fermentation. At least it kills the germs and was safer than the filthy contaminated water.
-----------------------------------------------
Welcome to the forum! Beer is fermented only and then capped---so it's only about 5 or 6 percent alcohol. Wine is concentrated---not distilled, and is put through a different fermentation and aging process. This yields an alcohol content of up to 8 to 12%. Most wines today are additionally fortified up to as much as 19%.
So, the wine could have had an alcohol content twice that of beer. |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 4:26 pm: | |
That text always sounded exactly like a neighborhood barbeque to me, with favorite steaks and drinks. Verse 27 says to be sure to invite the Levites.
(Message edited by admin on March 17, 2006) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:02 pm: | |
Bobj,
I see this is your first post here on FAF. Welcome. Tell us more about yourself and how Adventism has affected you, when you feel comfortable doing so.
And your are correct, the next text does say to invite the Levites. The more the merrier at a party.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2378
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:08 pm: | |
Bobj,
I see this is your first post on FAF. Welcome.
When you are comfortable, tell us about your self and you involvement with Adventism.
And you are right. The next verse says not to forget the Levites. For me, the more the merrier at a party.
God is always awesome.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:13 pm: | |
Sorry for the double post. I looked for the first one after I wrote it and did not see it, so I posted again. Then I see both of them.
I do not know how to get rid of the second one.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3537
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:32 pm: | |
Bobj, welcome to the forum! We look forward to hearing your story!
Colleen |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:51 pm: | |
Thank you for the welcome. Although there were many things that shaped my walk with the Lord, two significant events happened about five years ago that woke me up to how important our theology really is as believers, and how devastating it can be when we become confused. The first was when, in casual conversation, a life-long SDA nurse, who worked in hospice, described the many lingering deaths she had witnessed over the years, and then commented, almost apologetically, that as a whole SDAs really struggled as they approached their deaths, and that, overall, Christians from mainline churches possessed much greater peace and assurance than was to be found among SDAs. Her almost casual comment struck deep into my heart, and I knew that, as far as I was concerned, I would end up dying exactly like the many other SDAs whose deaths she had witnessed. I have known the nurse who told me this since childhood. She is a godly woman and would never speak anything but the truth. The impact of her words ultimately led me to seek the Lord from my heart and to let go of the head religion that I knew so well. A little later a close relative was dying in a rest home, and confided to my father (a retired pastor) that he was a lost man. No peace, no sweet presence of the Holy Spirit, no assurance of any future with the Lord. The dying man was an Adventist's Adventist, had raised up churches, etc., and was somewhat of an expert (or so I thought) on theology. After he died I learned that he had left me a paper of about 60 pages that outlined his theology--pure righteousness by obedience, pure old covenant, stuff like "only those who keep God's Sabbath on earth will be keeping it with Him in heaven" etc. Lots of emphasis on obedience and perfectionism, loaded with statements on keeping the law and getting ready for Jesus to come, which for him meant to stop sinning and live perfectly. The entire paper emphasized his human centered view of salvation, which had little to do with trusting Jesus. Perhaps this is why he died as he did. Jesus was just an adjunct and I think he never really knew the Lord or trusted Him as a personal Savior. About this time I worked with a woman who used to be a chaplain in a large SDA hospital and she confirmed these observations about SDAs struggling in the face of death, and that the chaplains had noticed it, too. While I do not in any way criticize those who are uncertain about the importance of Jesus Christ, or who don't feel they can fully trust Him with their salvation, my heart aches for so many of my friends who are struggling with fear and uncertainty and are following a theological path that can never bring them peace. Only Jesus can lift the veil. I guess the hardest thing is realizing that there is little you can say to a person who cannot hear, and I can tell you that I personally could not hear the gospel or even begin to comprehend it until I just gave up in despair with the hoplessness of the old covenant theology I grew up with. I would have held on to it to my death if Jesus hadn't intervened through the words of that dear hospice nurse whom the Lord used to wake me up. The Lord has given me peace beyond anything I could have imagined. It's amazing, His peace is like a whole new dimension in my life. The Lord is doing things in my heart and life that I can hardly explain. I just praise Him.
Bob
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Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 49
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 7:57 am: | |
Welcome, Bob! Your testimony here is very inspiring and I praise the Lord with you. I look forward to more communications from you on this forum.
May I comment on alcoholic beverages? I agree that the strong drink mentioned in the Bible had to have been fermented. If I'm not mistaken, grapes begin the fermentation process even while they're still on the vine, if left there long enough. I firmly believe Jesus did drink fermented grape juice, as they did not have refrigeration in those days.
I also agree that the teachings on tithe in most Christian churches are manipulative, in that they gloss over this passage in Deuteronomy.
But now we come down to the 21st century, and I have to use my judgement when applying the Bible to my own drinking and financial practices. I take Deut 14:26 and balance it with Romans 14:13, "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."
Because my mother has very strong feelings about alcohol, I do not drink it. Her father died when she was sixteen as a result of his drinking habit. And I do not drink it, because of my children and grandchildren, who look to me for an example. I might be fully capable of drinking alcohol and never becoming an alcoholic. But one of them might not have that same inner strength.
And as for tithing, I personally would love to follow the Deuteronomy passage with my finances. But I balance that passage, too, with Romans 14. My husband has expressed to me his utter fear of what will happen to HIS salvation if I, as his wife, don't apply the titheing verses as the SDA church teaches them. So, even though I know within myself that God would allow a much different practice, I follow my husband's pattern, so as not to cause a stumblingblock to him.
As formers we do have full assurance of our salvation and the utter joy that brings. I am exhilirated by what I'm learning in the Presbyterian Sunday school class I've been attending and have NO desire to become entangled again with a yoke of bondage to the law. However, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which has set me free from the law of sin and death, also leads me to bear my cross and complete the sufferings of Christ. I believe part of that suffering involves relinquishing certain freedoms for the sake of others.
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Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 9:18 am: | |
Hi Honestwitness
Thank you for your kind reply. I can appreciate your husband's perspective on tithing. About 17 years ago I can remember feeling utterly frustrated financially and recalling the OT promise in Malachi 3. That passage always remeided me of "contract religion--you do this and I'll do that" --but at the time it sounded good, and, with not much left to lose, we went back and caught up on tithe for about 13 prior years, not an impossible task because we were full time students for about half that time.
Yes, the Lord blessed in ways that only He could, and that blessing translated directly into dollars. I think that the same basic promise is given again in Luke 6:38 (give and it shall be given). I never considered tithing a salvation issue. Just that if the promises are true, and if God still honors our generosity with his own, I didn't want to miss out.
My motives were less than perfect--I needed money--and that's why I considered it, as far as I was concerned, a form of "contract religion." I really didn't care what happened to the money after we gave it, I just didn't want God to have any excuse not to bless us. I know this sounds awful, but that's how I was thinking at the time.
I once listened to a man who questioned giving tithe to the church if it wasn't serving as the "spiritual storehouse." I thought he had an interesting concept, that we should give our tithe to the place (or places) that nurture us spiritually, ie, our "storehouse." It made me think about ministries that were really helping the poor and helping people like me to learn to trust fully in the Lord Jesus Christ (and not in their own obedience or good deeds) for salvation.
Bob
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Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 333
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:18 pm: | |
Honestwitness, this could be one of the ways you show your love to your husband. The freedom Christ gives you allows you to tithe 10% and it not be a condition of your salvation. The Lord very well could use your ability to make this a non-issue that peaks your husband's curiosity.
I rejoyce that we have such liberty to drink or not to drink, to give 10% or 90% to raise our hands or bow our heads. Praise Jesus for such grace! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3566
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 5:03 pm: | |
Thanks for sharing your story, Bobj!
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 60
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 10:26 pm: | |
About wine or strong drink, the scripture that opened my eyes was the passage about Nazirites:
quote:The Lord said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or a woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the Lord as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or rasins. As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.'" (Numbers 6:1-4)
This showed me that when the Bible wants to say "grape juice", it will say "grape juice" and not "wine". When it says "wine", it means "wine". |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 737
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
Excellent point, Agapetos! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4097
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 12:15 am: | |
That is a great point! Thanks, Ramone!
Colleen |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 389
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 3:33 pm: | |
Agapetos, I have read those passages and it never dawned on me the use of wine, fermented drink and grape juice all used together giving each a distinct charactor not just all being unfermented grape juice. |
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