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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2280
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |     |
Jackob
I agree with Colleen about praying for others. All my sisters were raised SDA. None of the 4 of them practice it. The eldest, my half sister, will have nothing to do with God or religion. But she does listen to me, even though we disagree. We are the best of friends and sisters.
The next two sisters have their own demons to fight and I just pray for them. The one older than me I had to block from my e-mail as she got very nasty with me. The youngest sister lives near me, but we do not discuss God or religion or spiritual matters. She and I will help each other as needed and associate with each other. I have had to learn to let go and let God take care of all 4 of them. When I am hanging on to them I try to direct Him. Have you tried to direct God??? It is not a pretty sight.
What I have learned to do is ask God to give them everything I want for myself. I want peace, serenity, a good relationship with Jesus, with my family and my son. I want the same thing for each of my sisters and brothers. I mentioned my sisters because they were the ones raised as SDA, my brothers were not. That is a long story and I am not sure I know all of it.
So take heart, God does hear you prayers and every every so often He will let you see how they are being answered, but it is not often. At least that is what he has done with me and my oldest sister. She is a dear and I love her very much. And believe Colleen when she says, that God will not waste anything. He will redeem your deep disappointments and sufferings. Even when we do not see what He is doing, are prayers are being answered.
My oldest sister went to a FAF Bible study with me in Redlands this past August 2005 and on the following Sunday morning to churh with me. She will be going to some of the FAF reunion meetings. But she still does not believe in God. God knows her heart and mine and as long as God is okay with her, so am I.
I guess what I am trying to say is that even though I do not see the answers to my prayers, I know God is answering them. I have seen how He has used my past experience to help my oldest sister and I am amazed each time. He is so awesome in how He works.
I am praying for you also.
Diana
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Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 7:20 pm: | |
I'm just reading the rest of this thread for the first time since Friday, and was interested in your comments Stan, about "Bondage of the Will". You said, " For about eight years after becoming saved I was under the mistaken impression that it was my free will that chose Jesus as my Savior. I was still just as much saved as I am today, but as Bible truth became even clearer over time, I had to come to the conclusion that salvation was entirely of grace--all of God, and not of my own choosing. "
I'm having a hard time with this concept. Does believing in a sovereign God mean believing in predestination? Where does man's choice come into play, if at all?
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 8:09 pm: | |
Grace,
Yes, I realize this is a difficult concept, and we discussed this briefly last Fri. night. As one of the FAF Bible class ladies said who was sitting next to you, "sinners choose to go to hell, but they don't make the choice to be saved". We can only make this choice to follow Jesus after He opens up our spiritual eyes, and we are born from above as John 1:13 so clearly states. "...not by the will of the flesh or the human will, but born of God."
But I urge folks who have not considered this concept before, do not worry about this now. Just know that if you are seeking God with all of your hearts and trusting solely in Christ, then you have been chosen from before the foundation of the world.
I would like to explain further, Grace, but I have to work all night and am headed off there now, so will get back to you more on this issue tomorrow.
Stan
(Message edited by admin on February 06, 2006)
(Message edited by admin on February 06, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3354
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 11:42 pm: | |
Snowboardingmom, the concepts of predestination and election are taught in the Bible in many places, so we really can't ignore them. The Bible also teaches that it is not God's will that any should perish, and that God so loved the world He sent His son.
The important thing to know is that God lovingly deals with people in His mercy and grace. We don't need to worry about whether or not someone is "predestined" to be saved, because we can trust God to be faithful to his heart of love for humanity.
We really can't see how election "works" from our perspective. It's kind of like a triangle and a circle. In a two-dimensional perspective, the two look completely unrelated. From a 3-dimensional perspective, however, a circle and a triangle are integrally connected if you picture a cone.
God is in eternity, outside our four dimensions of length, breadth, hight, and time. From His perspective the mysteries we struggle with make sense. Right now, however, we accept His revelations to us by faith in His promises and in the revelation of Jesus. We know we can trust Him, because we have experienced His faithfulness and His merciful and grace-filled call on our own lives.
Yes, the Bible teaches election and predestination (see Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 for starters.) But these facts are not all the dimensions of God. We can trust Him, and we can thank Him for his election of us and for His persistent work on our loved ones!
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:04 pm: | |
Snowboardingmom,
Just a few more things. I agree with Colleen's post. As we were talking about last Friday night, in believing in God's total sovereignty over everything that happens, we come to understand that God is totally just and perfect in all His ways. We can only take what the Bible says and not put our mindset into the text to make it say something we like better.
In my SDA background, I never got a sense of what the effects of the fall of man were. Since SDAs don't believe in the doctrine of the human spirit, then it is difficult to see how Adam's spirit died completely when he sinned. They died a total spiritual death. The effects of this spiritual death were passed on to everyone in the human race. This spiritual death is so complete, that a dead spirit cannot choose to follow the true God unless he is miraculously given a resurrected soul. So, salvation is a total miracle of new birth that as John 1:13 says can't be of any will of the flesh or human decision, but be born of God. Wayne Grudem's commentary is clear on this point as to paraphrase him 'How many of you had anything to do with your physical birth? Now, spiritual birth is such an infinitely greater miracle, so how could we have anything to do with that?
Also as an Adventist, I never understood how abhorrent evil is in the sight of God. This is part of the problem. I finally came to understand that God would be perfectly just if He saved no one, because the entire human race stands condemned in Adam. As Grudem says so well 'it is a wonder that God saves anyone'. So, before time began according to Ephesians 1:4 'He chose US in Him before the creation of the world' 'He predestined us...in accordance with his plesure and will'. Some people want to add to this text that he chose us based on what he saw our decision would be. This is the difference between John Wesley and Martin Luther.
All throughout the epistles we see in so many places where it shows God chose us, instead of us choosing Him. We don't know why God makes these choices, and we are not told, but we just have to stick to what the text actually says.
Matt 11:27 "...no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him. Here it says Jesus chooses us, and not what is the common term in evangelicalism today, and those are the words "I accepted Christ" We do accept Christ, but this is only after He first chooses us and gives us resurrected souls. The point of this is--the most popular theological system in America today, Arminianism, always puts the emphasis on what I do, and not on what God does. One religion is man centered, and the other one is God centered. One religion puts man's free-will as the ultimate good, and the other system of grace always points to the Glory of God as the greater good.
John 6 is an entire treatise on God doing all the work in saving us. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me." Now, it is quite apparent that not all people will be saved, so it is only those that the Father gives to Jesus that He saves. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him..." That Greek word draw is used in many other parts of the New Testament, and it's meaning is literally to drag someone against their will. Our own free-will could never choose Christ. The Father has to drag us to Jesus. As C.S. Lewis says, he was dragged kicking and screaming into the kingdom.
There is so much more to say, and admittedly this is controversial, but I came from a strong free-will oriented background in my life and career, so these concepts were especially difficult for me to accept, but I believe it because scripture teaches it.
There is a good article that I referenced above at www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index004.htm
by John Reisinger, a great New Covenant theologian detailing the clear differences between what we were taught in SDA--that is free-will vs. the true reformation gospel of Calvon and Luther called free grace. The differences are very clearly outlined between these two systems. It is interesting to note that the Reformation was fought along these lines. Because most of the early church fathers and of course Rome taught the doctrine of free-will. Martin Luther came along and had this great debate with Erasmus and the book "Bondage of the Will" resulted.
The Reformation faith of Luther and Calvin was brought to America by the Puritans, and was the dominant faith of American Christianity. But Catholicism influenced Jacob Arminius to bring back the doctrine of free will as opposed to free grace, and John Wesley was influenced by him, and the doctrine of perfectionism was born, and we all know the rest of the story when Ellen White was influenced by John Wesley, and she brought the doctrine of perfectionism to SDA.
Stan |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 11:46 pm: | |
Thanks Stan and Colleen for the explanation (last Friday night, when we were discussing what God being sovereign implies, I wasn't really getting it at all). I wanted to ask questions, but found myself not really even able to understand it enough to ask questions about it. It was just overall a pretty foreign concept to me. I mean, I've read about election and predestination, but kind of rationalized in my head that it wasn't REALLY referring to being a predestination of specific people but a class of people (those that were in Him). So in Ephesians 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." So the key phrase is "in Him", so I always just thought that it meant those who would choose Him would be saved.
In fact, after reading the link from soundofgrace.com, I still tended to agree more with the free-will understanding. As the author described what people believe about free-will, I was in full understanding. Now I realize that this may be SDAism tinting my understanding of this concept, but honestly it makes more sense to me.
I realize that we need to trust God, in His sovereignty, and that we can't put Him in a box and understand it all. I also realize, that it's not really our place to question whether someone has been prechosen to be saved or not. And I understand that as sinful humans, it goes against our grain to choose Christ. That I get, and can accept "not having all the answers".
But, it seems that the Bible is also clear on our free-will choice (Jn 5:40 and Rev. 22:17 are just a few examples). Unless of course this is taken that God made us willing or not willing, come or not come.
What about evangelism? Preaching the gospel so that people can hear it? Where would the passion be if it didn't really matter?
I can definitely see how if one believes in this doctrine, that salvation really isn't about works at all. There is absolutely nothing we can do then to "get saved". We just are or we aren't.
My Bible teacher from Academy and I were recently talking about the importance of obedience. I had told him that salvation was a gift, there was nothing we could do to earn it. No matter how hard we try we will always come up short -- therefore it's all about grace. He proceeded to tell me that the Garden of Eden was a gift given to Adam and Eve. They did nothing to earn it, but by their choice they lost it. So it is with us. We don't deserve it, but by are choices we can lose it. I didn't really know how to respond back to that. But I guess if I had the belief in free grace vs. free will (like the article described), this argument he gave wouldn't work. He was of course emphasizing the need to obey and keep the ten commandments as our choice.
I'd like to study more about this since the idea is SO different from what I've thought before. Like I stated earlier, in all honesty, the free will belief is what makes most sense to me. But then again, about 8 years ago, a modern day prophet made sense to me too!! |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1308
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 9:53 am: | |
Snowboardingmom,
Yes, I wouldn't expect anyone who was new to these teachings of grace that went against the grain of everything we were taught in Adventism, and even in a lot of evangelicalism, as free-will is very much the dominating religion today, to suddenly be able to switch gears. I used to be angrily opposed to anyone who would claim to be a Calvinist, which is the nick-name for the free grace system spoken about by John Resinger in that link above. It took eight years of study of scripture to see where the entire Bible from Genesis (the story of Cain and Abel, the call of Abraham, God choosing Jacob over Esau,) and all the way through the Old Testament, and then to start to see how different the terminology of Paul and the other New Testament writers seemed to be in describing the salvation plan of God, as compared to what I heard in Adventism and in popular evangelical circles. BTW, in studying Jesus description of this process in John 6 where he gives his famous sermon on predestination, notice in john 6:65 where he restates John 6:44 about no one coming to Jesus unless the Father enables him, then in verse 66 it says something to the effect that everyone deserted Jesus except the 12. He started that sermon with 5000 people, but this message He taught was so unpopular, that they all quietly slipped away. The same is true today. All you have to do is announce that the topic for discussion is predestination or free-will, and then most likely the room will clear out. The reason is that the message of election strictly by the grace of God goes against all we were ever taught. It also goes against the American culture where the prevailing idea is that "you are the captain of your soul" and you are in control.
I would re-iterate that this is not a salvation issue necessarily, as so many who don't see this as the Reformers did are still truly born from above. We are not saved by doctrinal regeneration anymore than we are saved by decisional regeneration. I can only illustrate my personal experience of having rebelled against this doctrine of free grace for so long, that now that I have come to accept the view of the total sovereignty of God, and it provides even a greater amount of assurance to know that He personally chose me long before time began, and he regenerated me at a time in my life when I was at the height of success, with no real need for God, but I was irresistibly drawn to a Gideon Bible in a drawer of a cruise ship while partying it up. I could not resist the call of God after getting to Matthew's passion story. But it is only in retrospect that I now understand that it was all God's doing. For so long, I thought that I was born again because I had something to do with it. Knowing that God is in complete control of everything that happens is also a comforting way to live.
As far as the questions that come up about why evangelize? History has shown that some of the greatest missionaries such as David Livingston and so many others were also Calvinists. Charles Spurgeon, the greatest preacher of all time was also from this stream. This Reformation doctrine of free grace always sparks the greatest revivals. Christ commanded us to preach the gospel. Also in our FAF study last Friday we talked about the fact Rom. 10 speaks of faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God has ordained that we preach the gospel to everyone. Election is God's business, and we are not to worry who might be chosen, and he has ordained that we have an integral part in bringing souls to Christ.
There is sovereignty on one hand but total human responsibility on the other hand. Sinners are responsible for their choices in rejecting God. There is a promise in scripture, that if we truly seek after God with all our hearts, that we will find him. It is a distortion of the gospel of grace to then take a fatalistic view that nothing we do matters. This is the great paradox.
Stan
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3365
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 11:22 am: | |
Grace, I completely understand your frustration. I want to address your conversation with your academy Bible teacher who compared us to Adam and Eve in terms of disobedience causing us to lose salvation.
The Bible is clear that WE are not expected to do what Adam did not do. God sent us JESUS to do what Adam could not do. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 addresses this fact, as does Romans 5:14-21 andn Ephesians 2:4-7.
We are spiritually dead by nature (objects of wrath--Ephe 2:4). Adam was spiritually alive by nature. God created Him in complete oneness with Him. Adam's sin was different from ours; he did not inherit spiritual death as we do. He was alive, and He broke God's command from a position of complete intimacy with God. His sin was truly heinous, because it condemned ALL humanity to spiritual death (that text in 1 Cor. again).
We have NO HOPE of obeying God, because we are inherently born with sinful natures. Adam didn't have a "sinful nature" before he ate that fruit. That's why God sent Jesus.
Jesus was born spiritually aliveóthe only human in history to be born with an intrinsically living spirit. The Holy Spirit and Mary conceived Him, and He was, from the moment of conception, alive with the life of Godóintimately connected to the Father. Adam was the only other human on earth to have begun his life connected to God with an intrinsically living spirit instead of being disconnected by the inherent sin of spiritual death.
(John the Baptist, Luke tells us, was filled with the spirit in Elizabeth's womb, but that filling was God's miracle of regeneration. John was intrinsically sinful like everyone else; God just sovereignly gave him the new birth before his physical birth to equip him for his singular mission.)
Jesus' spiritual "aliveness" was the reason He could obey perfectly. He had no sinful nature. Adam, likewise, had no "sinful nature" before he sinned and lost his spiritual intimacy with God. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that we are to obey to retain our salvation. Jesus bought our freedom from the curse of sin, and His obedience stands in place of ours.
Even after we accept Him and are born again of the Spirit, we still have our sinful flesh and our original sin natures which fight with our new naturesóRomans 7 totally describes this phenomenon. God doesn't expect us to obey to maintain the salvation we don't deserve. God expects us to hide ourselves in Christ and to grow in Him. His righteousness and obedience and perfect sacrifice both bought our salvation and redeemed us from our past sinsóand they redeem us from ALL our sins in the future as well.
Our security is not related to obeying. Our security is all about staying "in the vine", as Jesus said. Jesus' obedience is our obedience. As we offer ourselves to Him, He increasingly shows us how to trust Him and reveals places in our hearts we need to open to Him. As we are relating to Him and allowing His Spirit to renew our minds and give us new hearts, Jesus' eternal sacrifice and perfect obedience cover us.
God looks at us and sees Jesus. He doesn't look at us to evaluate whether or not we are perfecting our obedience (and, as your Bible teacher would say if pushed, whether or not we are honoring the Sabbath). God judged Christ, and when we are in Him, we do not come into judgment or condemnation (John 3:18, 5:24).
The answer to your teacher is that Adam is not our example, and neither is Jesus. Adam 's sin condemned us so we have no hope of obeying. Jesus came to redeem us and to be our SUBSTITUTE, not our example. Jesus did what Adam didn't do. That was His "job". We have never been expected to do what Adam didn't do. We can't. We're "hopelessly flawed", as Jo says in "Little Women".
Here's where we begin to see the miracle of God's sovereign grace. We can't obey. We can't even respond to God without His intervention (Epehsians 2:1-9). Jesus came and took our place. He died the death to which we were sentenced; he lived the life Adam didn't and we couldn't; he awakens our hearts to the truth of His life and death and resurrection. He removes the veil that keeps us from seeing the glorious reality of Him.
He brings us to the place of being able to see Him and to recognize His sacrifice and grace. And only then, when He has awakened us to desire Him, we can say "Yes!" to Him. Our salvation is ALL of Jesus and NOTHING of ourselves!
He is wonderful beyond words.
Colleen |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 126
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 2:48 pm: | |
Over the last 1-1/2 years, I've been studying the doctrine of God's Sovereignty. As an SDA and for many years thereafter, I just did not get it. But the more I focus on His Total Sovereignty the more clear everything else is becoming. I find myself more and more in agreement with the traditional "Calvinist" understanding. This has made a major impact on how I view salvation and many other concepts. It has also brought me a deep sense of peace that I never had before.
Dane |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:59 am: | |
Thanks Stan and Colleen for sharing...
Both of you brought up really new ideas to me. I remember studying about Calvinist teachings in Academy, but under the presumption that they were false. So it's pretty hard for me to look past it, even now. I know it's not really a salvational issue, so I'm not going to get hung up on it right now. Maybe as I study more, I'll understand it more. It appears as if it's the type of doctrine that reveals itself over time.
Both of you guys mentioned about Adam spiritually dying when he sinned. That's a new thought to me. Colleen, your explanation of why Jesus had to be the one to die was like a huge epiphany for me as I read it. I don't know why I just now got it, it's like "duh!". I sort of got it before, and thought I understood, it, but I only understood part of it. I didn't really put two and two together about how Adam's obedience was different from our obedience. And when you wrote that neither Adam OR JESUS is our example, I was shocked. Even despite my new view of the role of the law, I thought that we should try and emulate Jesus and be as good as we could be. When I read that He is our substitute not our example, I definitely had a "oh....I get it" moment.
As far as the New Covenant (and I know we've been through this before, but it just clicked fully) I thought that rather than a law of tablets of stone, it was written in our hearts, etc. Rather than having the law as our guide, the Holy Spirit was now our guide convicting us and in response we NEED to obey it. And although saved by grace, we still needed to obey something. As I type this, I realize that I had no idea what we needed to obey, just something  . And if we didn't obey that something (whatever it was), then we would be held accountable for it in judgment. Hmm....it's making so much more sense now. Believing in the New Covenant IS assuring!
Does it normally take this long for someone to get it, or am I just really slow? |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 12:07 pm: | |
Thanks Stan and Colleen for sharing...
Both of you brought up really new ideas to me. I remember studying about Calvinist teachings in Academy, but under the presumption that they were false. So it's pretty hard for me to look past it, even now. I know it's not really a salvational issue, so I'm not going to get hung up on it right now. Maybe as I study more, I'll understand it more. It appears as if it's the type of doctrine that reveals itself over time.
Both of you guys mentioned about Adam spiritually dying when he sinned. That's a new thought to me. Colleen, your explanation of why Jesus had to be the one to die was like a huge epiphany for me as I read it. I don't know why I just now got it, it's like "duh!". I sort of got it before, and thought I understood, it, but I only understood part of it. I didn't really put two and two together about how Adam's obedience was different from our obedience. And when you wrote that neither Adam OR JESUS is our example, I was shocked. Even despite my new view of the role of the law, I thought that we should try and emulate Jesus and be as good as we could be. When I read that He is our substitute not our example, I definitely had a "oh....I get it" moment.
As far as the New Covenant (and I know we've been through this before, but it just clicked fully) I thought that rather than a law of tablets of stone, it was written in our hearts, etc. Rather than having the law as our guide, the Holy Spirit was now our guide convicting us and in response we NEED to obey it. And although saved by grace, we still needed to obey something. As I type this, I realize that I had no idea what we needed to obey, just something . And if we didn't obey that something (whatever it was), then we would be held accountable for it in judgment. Hmm....it's making so much more sense now. Believing in the New Covenant IS assuring!
Does it normally take this long for someone to get it, or am I just really slow? |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 12:08 pm: | |
oops...I double submitted it. I thought there was a glitch and it didn't submit. |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:33 pm: | |
One has smiley faces...the other didn't. Something DID glitch |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3374
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:18 pm: | |
Grace, you are NOT slow! I can tell you exactly why this concept has taken so "long" to understand. There are two main reasons (that I can think of right now!) for this concept being hard to "get" at first.
1. The vocabulary
Adventism has painstakingly made an effort to conform its language to sound like evangelicalism. Beginning in the 1950's when Adventist scholars wrote Questions on Doctrine to answer Walter Martin's questions about the denomination, they carefully worded their beliefs so Adventist doctrines could fit inside those words without the words actually revealing the unbiblical nature of Adventism. IOW, they worded things so Martin was deceived, and while their wording upset conservative Adventists because it didn't actually state their traditional understandings right up front, still the wording could be construed to mean what Advenitsts meant, so the church was placated as well.
In reality, Q on D caused a rift in the church that has never really gone away. It opened the door to "evangelical Adventism" that the historic, true-blue Adventists have never acceptedóand rightly so, actually, because it isn't truly Adventism. At the same time, the "evangelical Adventists" have never renounced the cultic doctrines of Adventism. They have simply re-defined them to make them more acceptable.
Your understanding of "obedience" is one of the ways this language-blurring has played out. The Bible teaches that God writes His law on our hearts in the New Covenant. He doesóbut Adventists teach this truth from the false assumption that the Law of God EQUALS the 10 Commandments. That assumption is not Biblical. Of course, the reason they assume and teach this fallacy is the 4th commandment. If the law of God is not the decalogue, then there'd be no "air-tight" argument for the seventh day.
The Law of God is Himself. The decalogue was a shadow. Jesus is the Real Thing.
2. Misunderstanding the "spirit"
The second reason the reality of what Jesus did is so hard to "see" is the Adventist misrepresentation of the spirit. The Bible clearly teachesóespecially in the NTóthat humans have a spirit that can know God.
Adventists teach that humans are: Body + breath = Living Soul. That means, they say, that people do not have spirits that are separate from the body. They have bodies and breath--the breath of life, and when we die, that breath goes to God. We cease to exist until the resurrection.
Jesus, though, told the Samaritan woman that the time had come when we must worship God not in holy places but "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24). God, he said, is spirit, and we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Truth is objective, outside-of-ourselves facts that we perceive with our brains. Our spiritsówell, how do you worship with BREATH?
1 Cor. 1-2 discusses this issue of spiritual "knowing". 1 Cor 2:14 says that the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
These and many other passages are not referring to one's breath, nor are they referring to one's personality. Further, the Holy Spirit does not communicate with us through our breath. Our breath cannot be our "spirit".
The New Bible Dictionary by Inter-Varsity Press says the word "pneuma" occurs 379 times in the NT. Of those, 250 refer to the Holy Spirit, 40 refer to the part of the human personality that can have a relationship with God. The rest of the uses of the word refer to demonic, unclean, evil, or heavenly spirits.
Because Adventists have systematically taught that man doesn't have a spirit that is separate from the body, they have never understood sin. Sin is the death--the disconnection of that spirit from God. Because Adventists don't believe in such a spirit, they see Adam's sin as a mental and behavioral lapse. Our inherited sin, then, is more a genetic weakness than an intrinsic brokenness that means automatic death.
Furhter, because they don't believe in a spirit that can know God, they don't see Jesus' sinlessness as different from what we could have if we just didn't break the commandments. Further, Adventists have never had a unanimous or official definition of Jesus' nature. Some say he had Mary's sinful flesh; others say he didn't. They can't figure out how to explain His innate sinlessness because they don't consider that he had a living spirit from the moment of conception.
When we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and born from above, our spirits come to life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Further, understanding that humans do have true spirits, Paul's comments about death make perfect sense. (see 2 Cor. 5 and Phil. 1:22-23.)
Well, here I've gone and given you Too Much Information again--but if I haven't lost you, I think these two things are the underlying reasons why Adventists have such a hard time "getting" the truth of what Jesus did. We bring to the gospel a set of foundational definitions that we think are eternal truthóand we find out that they are not. If the foundation is faulty, everything above it is unstable and doomed.
The Adventist foundation is seriously flawed.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:30 pm: | |
I agree Colleen, This concept of the fall of man being total spiritual death which needs the same miracle of resurrection which raised Christ from the dead, and we are resurrected in our spirits to new life in Christ. We still live in our fallen bodies, but we long for the redemption of our bodies as well.
Thanks Grace and Dane for your input on this thread.
Stan |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 374
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:57 pm: | |
Great points, Colleen. I never thought about it in that way, that if "spirit" means something other than breath in the case of good or evil angels, and the Holy Spirit, then obviously our spirit has to also be something other than breath. Why would the definition change just for us humans?
It's still a weird concept to me, even though I can plainly see the many Bible texts that support a real spirit in humans. Are born again believers supposed to be able to feel their spirit being alive? Sometimes I think I do, but wonder if it's my imagination. And if I definitely don't, then does that mean I haven't been born again? Maybe I don't more often because I'm so programmed that everything happens in the brain, that I have no clue how to feel anything in my spirit. Does anyone else struggle with this? What is "normal" like for one who has been born again? Most of the time when I think I feel my spirit being alive and feel a sense of spiritual peace, it's when I'm in church, studying the Bible or praying--but not always during those times. During regular, mundane activities I generally don't.
If it's true we have a spirit that can communicate with God, why aren't all believers obviously aware of that from the moment the new birth occurs and on? |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 9:57 pm: | |
Raven, I think it's because the way God communicates is so different than anything else we have experienced. For years, I used to think I was so intuitive. I'd have this little idea run through my head and when I followed it, things were good. But when I ignored it, I can remember thinking I should have done that. One day I was participating in a study on the Holy Spirit, and as they described his voice to different people, I realized all the blaspheming I'd been doing (taking credit for all those "ideas" when it was really the voice of God), but really began to realize it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me. It's a soft voice and not always the only voice my brain hears. But through time and experience, I've learned the voice. And sometimes you have to wait and be quiet. It also makes silence deafening when you really want an answer from God.
New babies hear noise, but they don't know what those sounds mean. I don't think Christian babies are any different. But you learn through time.... At least you get better.... |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 10:12 pm: | |
Colleen,
That is powerful stuff! This is a very good explaination of a topic that I am also muddled up about. It give me much to consider and actually makes sense. It is so hard to shake the 'body + breath = living soul' logic...even as I type this I feel 'wrong' somehow.
Don't despair Grace. It is a lot to absorb, thats for sure. With reading Martin Luthur's 'Bondage of the Will', 'Commentary on Galatians', books by RC Sproul, browsing 'soundofgrace.org' and 'desiriggod.org', I feel like my head will explode! I can't seem to even get on the web before a couple of hours of reading go by. I may just have to step back to a 'Bible only' position for a while just to get my thought processes calmed down a little bit.
InSearchOf |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:34 pm: | |
Colleen -- thanks for the info. It's not too much; it helps me see the big picture behind everything. It may be overwhelming only because I'm realizing there's not much to my Adventism background that I can build on. The foundation is flawed like you said. I think it would be easier in a lot of ways just to start over if we could make a clean slate in our head. It almost takes another "brainwashing" just to get back to normal.
And InSearchOf, I hear you. I was thinking the same thing about going back to a 'Bible only' position for a while too. I have been spending tons of time reading the web too, and I'm feeling like maybe now that I have a new perspective, I should go back to reading just Scripture and see what God reveals.
Thanks so much guys for all your input and info. It's been very helpful.
Grace |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 151
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:23 am: | |
Grace, your "obey something" diaglog made me smile. Oh I have been there exactly! lol.
I believe that God does write his law in our hearts. His law of love as described in 1st John is a new command. It is not a salvation issue, as I understand it, but a most excellent way of living, and God in his grace and through his holy spirit has made it possible for us to experience living with the mind of Christ even now, in this polluted earth.
I agree with Melissa, for in my experience, it has been a maturing issue that has allowed me to "hear" or be aware of the indwelling Holy Sprit. I finally understand David when he says he delights in the law of God. My sinful nature does not, but new spirit does.
Obedience to the commands of God, (given to me thru revelation of the Holy Spirit and Spirit filled understanding of Holy Scripture) are still important to me. They are a light to my path. They bring me into fullness of life. My path of obedience comes from conviction of the holy spirit. My new nature is convicted of sin, I cry out to God, not out of condemnation or fear of hell, but out of that spot that is separted from God, and longs to be one with him in spritiual communion. It is very different to me.
I am a sheep! The way to the pasture is to follow the shepard. He has already gone out ahead of me to find the pasture that is perfect. In bible study I was asked, How do we "follow" someone. I thought quite awhile on that one. What came to mind was a picture of follow the leader...Ie, imitiate what the leader does. move, speak, eat, respond, suffer...(the list could go on and on) Not as a salvation issue in any sense, not as to specific instances, but as a means to reflect the life hid in Christ, and to do his will while on this earth. Jesus said he did nothing on his own, but acted fully in his fathers will and even timing! That is my prayer, and I rely on the Holy Spirit both to will and to act according to His purposes.
OH i need to memorize scripture to have references ready at hand!
Thanks Colleen and Stan for taking the time for the responses. I have some things to take to God and reflect on!
JavaGirl
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3378
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:09 pm: | |
Raven, I relate to your question about how to recognize the Holy Spirit in our spirit. And Melissa, I loved your expalantion of your own experience. It is so apt.
There are two things that have helped me learn to recognize the Holy Spirit: praying that I will not be deceived and that God will teach me personally with His Spirit, and immersion in Scripture. The more I study Scripture inductively and even memorize it, the more clear God's Words become to me. Scripture has been reshaping my entire understanding of reality.
Obviously God has provided us a wealth of material that He uses to help open up truth to us. Bottom line, thoughóreality is revealed in the Bible. All commentary must be seen in the light of Scripture. There's nothing else that will teach and shape us like the Bible itself if we submit oursleves to the teaching and the will of God as we study.
Elizabeth Inrig puts it well: she observed that many people do not subject their personal lives to the authority and scrutiny of every verse of Scripture.
Raven, I'm finding that the commands, such as the one in Ephesians 5:19-20 to speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and to sing and make music in our hearts to GodóALWAYS giving thanks to God our Father for EVERYTHING in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, make the prsence of Jesus and the sense of the Holy Spirit's work more real. Often I just don't feel like praising God, but those times when I choose to praise Him out of obedience, my feelings change, and I become aware of His faithfulness.
I'm learning that if I am contemplating something not within God's will for me, I have a deep sense of conflict or axiety or non-resolution or confusion. If I am seeking to know His will and to be obedient and responsive to Him, I do have a sense of peace and clarity, even if I don't fully have the answers. Confusion is a characteristic not of God but of deception and evil.
Obviously, the above is not a once-for-all definition of how to know God's will! I'm learning, though, that confusion and a sense of defensiveness and "deserving" are signs to me that I'm not fully offering to God the issue I'm dealing with.
Colleen |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 375
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:34 pm: | |
Earlier today I went to our church's women's Bible study group and definitely felt God's presence there. Then I felt stupid for posting what I did earlier, but it still seems like a back and forth thing to me. Today is only the third time I've been to this group, but it's amazing to me how little theology these women know (it's the over 40 group, so many are retired), and yet they definitely have a spark and know Jesus in an intimate way in their daily lives. (Well, maybe I can't judge how much theology they do or don't know, but that's the impression I got.) There does seem to be something nourishing to include spiritual community with God's Word, instead of being as isolated as I often am. Maybe that's why the Bible tells us not to neglect meeting together.
(Message edited by Raven on February 10, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3383
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 4:11 pm: | |
Raven, you just said what I have often felt, but you clarified it better than I have. I've also had that amazing experience of doing Bible study with people who seem not to know much theology, but they are alive and they love Jesus. Amazingóthey love Jesus without knowing much about theology!
I like your use of the word "nourishing". That's exactly what I've experienced, and I've also come to the same conclusion you haveóthat is the reason the Bible tells us not to neglect meeting together. This miracle of fellowship with others whose spirits have been brought to life by the Holy Spirit transcends theological knowledge. Of course, our goal is to grow in knowledge and spiritual maturity, but the fellowship of being with others who are born from above is something I never felt in Adventist groups. Those were about being "deep" and "intellectual" and...well, you know!
Thanks for sharing your experience, Raven.
Colleen |
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