| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2123 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ted Kennedy should STILL be in prison doing a life sentence for what he did to thast girl at Chappaquittic. Like the bumper sticker says, "My gun has killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car." BTW, are you aware that Sheila Jackson Lee is SDA? | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 123 Registered: 4-2004 |
Using Goldstein's reasoning, almost any good fiction writer would be a prophet. His evidence is not rational by any stretch of the imagination. Dane | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2005 |
Goldsteins article {which i did not even bother to read in it's entirety} tells me that without the book of Daniel..there would be no SDA church DANIEL is the pinnacle of their faith intertwined with Ellen White WHO NEEDS JESUS after all?? DANIEL'S prophecies ARE the fulfillment of the Gospel and without Daniel and Ellen the Bible may not be understood...yeah even JUSTIFIED as an accurate book. {Tongue FIRMLY STUCK into my cheek of course} Lord Please Forgive Me | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2005 |
I think, it's not about what a prophet will say or write as a proof that he or she is a real prophet. It's not about what a real prophet will do, but about what a false prophet cannot do. In his convoluted argument Goldstein tried to show that Ellen White, if she was a false prophet, could never wrote these things. I don't know why, but, for an adventist, the examples are good to enforce his belief. It's something like a challenge: give you a better description of the dream of Pilate's wife if you can, or a better description of what happened in heaven, or about the life on another planets. If you, who are not a prophet, cannot produce something better, or equal with what she wrote, this proves that she is a prophet. You, as a false prophet cannot write what she had written. And the problem is the fact that what she wrote is a very good explanation for someone who believes in free will, and don't believe that God is sovereign and is not engaged in a war on equal terms with Satan. He is not on trial. Jesus Christ triumphed on the cross, and Satan is defeated forever. As an adventist, having the adventist worldview, I cannot imagine a better story than Ellen White had written, because it fits with the idea of "the freedom of the will". You must be transformed by the gospel to understand the truth about great controversy, to understand that God is in control, the rebellion in heaven doesn't mean what Ellen White means. For an adventist mind this is incomprehensible. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1272 Registered: 3-2005 |
That's right Anotherseeker, Growing up SDA there were never any Romans or Galatians seminars, but always Daniel and Revelation seminars with all that sensational literature with all those pictures of ugly beasts! Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 254 Registered: 10-2005 |
Sorry you lost your CDs Susan. Oh my God, Stan, you don't seem like you could have ever been a deadhead. When I was younger, I had a roommate that dated one. I liked some of their music, especially after having a few drinks. As a teenager I sat in the front row of of Yes, saw Pink Floyd the Wall in concert, The Who, and liked Black Sabbath, a lot. It was a phase. I used to watch my mother use her hulla hoop while listening to Elvis. I never liked Elvis much. I'm tired of the Carpenters, my husband sings Manilow and I never liked Harry Connick, Jr. I got a late start having kids - I have 2 young kids. My kids like Christian music and the Chipmunks, so that is what I listen to now. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2005 |
Riverfonz - I can relate to what you said about your parents, and also Grateful Dead. As a 5th generation SDA, even though my father was on the faculty at Andrews University, it was supposed to be the closest thing to living in the New Jerusalem, and we were all to live exemplary lives (as in EGW-like). I remember when I was about age 12, purchasing a record of the Wedgewood Trio (group from Southern Missionary College) at the Andrews University Bookstore. My father came into my bedroom, and told me that it was unacceptable because it "had a beat". He was a big classical music (Bach) and pipe organ (Mormon Tabernacle Choir) fan. I told him I would be happy to put on headphones if it bothered him. He said, "That is not the point. I am accountable to God for what is played in this house." Funny thing. Every Sunday morning we were graced by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and related speaker "from the crossroads of the west." It was ok because they had "good music". When I was 18 they told me that my tastes were too different from theirs and I could (would) now move out. I moved into a large house in downtown Berrien Springs that was filled with Seminary students. One of them invited me to my first out-of-town concert, a Greatful Dead concert in Chicago. It opened a new spiritual(?) journey for me, and I afterward attended many other memorable concerts, and became a part of the (much more accepting) culture. I think I can relate well to your "journey". I currently have the K-LOVE variety of CDs which I find much more edifying that their secular equivalent, eg Rod Stuart, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, et. al. Gilbert | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1274 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lynne, Yes, at PUC, I was in that kind of phase you are talking about. It was only by grace that God delivered me from really getting involved in that culture, and also sparing me the consequences of what it would have meant to my life to have ever gotten caught going to a Grateful Dead concert on Friday night--imagine that as a horrible sin! Jackob, You are absolutely right on! You're assessment is right on about how Ellen White could have been as influential as she was. The whole idea of the "dualistic" concept of the battle between Christ and Satan strikes right at the doctrine of the sovereignty of God, and at the doctrine of who Christ is. Just the idea of Christ being on an equal battle ground is foreign to the Bible. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1272 Registered: 7-2003  |
I have never gotten over the mental image that EGWs "Great Controversy" creates....two kindergarten kids screaming on the play ground "my daddy's bigger than yours". It just doesn't even seem logical to think the God of the universe needs to "prove" anything to anyone, let alone his creation. I can't help but read their God as weak and insecure as he needs to prove himself just. Almost cowardly. Seems so illogical... And you're absolutely right, Stan. It strikes at God's sovereignty, as well as the diety of Christ. While a lot of SDA doctrine seems complex (or convoluted), some of it is just down right shallow. When you think of the depth of God's grace and love and righteousness and holiness, how on earth can you give serious contemplation to his "concern" for what "others" think? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 921 Registered: 7-2004 |
As an Adventist I was cautioned against reading fiction. Here comes Goldstein telling everyone that Ellen's works of fiction (historical fiction, science fiction, and religious fiction) are all that he needs to prove her a prophet. Those "works" are fiction. History does not record much at all about Mrs. Pilate's dream other than the fact that she had one. As for science fiction, I prefer Gene Roddenberry, or just about anyone else--Isamov. Religious fiction, for sheer readability, there is always the "Left Behind" series. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2125 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lynne, Were you aware that the members of Black Sabbath were raised SDA? I thought that was sort-of interesting. Stan, were you one of those PUC students that would hit up the wineries tasting rooms in your free time? Ha! Ha! I always did that, too, still do but I wasn't passing myself off as SDA. About the EGW writings. After what that fellow wrote in the Review to me if sounds like word for word what I've heard from Mormons about their profit and their additional writings to the Bible. Rather than holding the profits writings to be judged by the Bible they use their profits writings first and find obscure Bible texts to back up their profit. A tad bit bassakwards it seems. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3329 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, your observations are so right! The Great Controversy absolutely contradicts God's sovereignty. If you think about it, the proposition is not only absurd but evil: The Mighty God of creation and salvation and light is engaged in an ongoing struggle (whose outcome is not yet complete) with a created being: a fallen angel. How rational is that? What kind of god would engage in a millinnia-long battle with a doomed creature of his own making? It's not only ludicrous, the concept is a bit insulting to human intelligence. It's only believable when a person is veiled from truth by a spiritual power of darkness. I'm more and more asontished and grateful that God is Light and makes us children of light, indwelling us with Himself. Being born from above truly is becoming a new creature. Praise God for foreknowing and calling us to Himself! Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2005 |
Susan, Interesting to say the least. Which members? Was Ozzy also? The lyrics are very satanic. Stan - I often worried about breaking the Sabbath on Friday nights. I like to eat out on the weekends and usually saved it for Saturday night because I could never get out of the restaurant before the sun went down on a Friday. Sometimes on Saturday nights though, I would go a little early, before the sun went down. I would be relieved when it was finally dark and I was no longer living in sin. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2126 Registered: 11-2002 |
Someone clear up something about the SDA belief that I don't understand. Never did and possibly never will because I'm betting my two-bits that even the most astute person on SDA doctrines can't explain the answer to my question that will actualy make a lick of sense. So, here's my question. The SDA's say that in "the last days" there will be "the time of trouble". Now, I get that much. The term "time of trouble" means to SDA's that they, the SDA's will be persucated by the Catholics and the horrors (Or is it whores?) of the Catholic church. I always thought it should be spelled horrors because what the SDA's describe as the time of trouble and their Daniel and Revelation Seminar pictures are fitting for a pretty scarry horror movie. But, back to my question. Just how long does this time of trouble last? I understand it is supposed to be just prior to the next coming of Jesus. I have asked and asked until my face turnes blue various SDA's this question and I have gotten several different answers. One answer it that the time of trouble will last six years because God says to rest on the seventh day and a year here means a day so Jesus will be here on the seventh year after the stasrt of the time of trouble so Adventists don't have to be going through the time of trouble over the Sabbath. A different SDA person told me the time of trouble was to last three and a half years because in the bookn in Daniel it speeks about times and half-times (Like in football, I guess.). Most SDA's just look at me with a blank look and say, "How should I know?" I guess EGW didn't tell them so they don't have the answer. Still, I figure the official bigwigs who make up the doctrines for the Adventist church must have a statement as to just how long the time of trouble will last. So, do any of you know what the SDA teaching is to how long the SDA's are going to have to live in the hills and mountains so they can avoid us persucating them? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1276 Registered: 3-2005 |
Gilbert, You and I did have similar backgrounds. I remember that Wedgwood trio album called "Country Church", that had all the twang of guitars. My Dad would forbid it, and he called it strange fire. I do have to say, that, unfortunately, the members of the Wedgwood reunited years later, and they basically repudiated that album, but I thought it was great. I was very lucky to go to PUC at the time. I got to hear the Stones play and stood in the front row and paid only seven dollars. That was 1972. We will get to hear from the Rolling Stones again this Sunday at half-time for Super Bowl. Yes, Susan, our favorite Sabbath afternoon activity was touring the wineries and then coming back for Sundown worship and avoid having the deans suspect that anything was wrong. Yes, those were the days! Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 372 Registered: 7-2004  |
Susan, No, I've never heard any SDA belief on how long the time of trouble will be, not even the two ideas you heard. I had always been under the impression that it would be short, probably months rather than years. I really don't think there is an official stance on that. Probably any impression I do have comes only from the various fictional stories that have been published depicting the author's idea of what the end time might be like. Since EGW is silent on the length, I guess there can't be anything official. | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2004 |
The thought has occured to me that Ellen's "Great Controversy" has the same general theme as many of the ancient Babylonian and Hindu tales of battles between the gods. These ancient pagan gods were not all-powerful. Neither is Ellen's. Hmmmm. Dane | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2129 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stan, I grew up in a way far out rural area of California. All those rinky-dink little hick towns have a SDA church. Most don't have an official SDA pastor and the lay mambers run the entire thing including their full expenses as well as maintainance, and extra programs that the good SDA folks want to do for the community like offer Vacation Bible School to the kids and so on. This is the sort of SDA church I attended a lot growing up. And, honestly, I always liked attending the hick SDA churches. I never did like the city churches. At the little hick SDA churches I have attended most do not use the official SDA hymnal at all but use a country and western gosple songbook. The Adventist church I went to most of the time no one even showed up who could play the piano but one cowboy always had his guitar and we sang country gosple to his guitar accompianant. When you deal with the mountain SDA's and the country SDA's you will find a very different kind of people than at the large urban SDA churches. It's like a different denomination. The country church people will generally have no problem with the bibical clean meats being served at their functions. And, dressing up for Sabbath services ment shining your best pair of cowboy boots. I always did enjoy that church. Sometimes my family would make me go into a big city to attend church and I hated it. Maybe because of the cultural differences, it's hard to find common interests with folks when there really is no common interest beyond understanding that the Sabbath is required. And, then when I was around 16 I ended up in the large city church and the SS teacher said SDA's should go into the medical field of work if at all possible because that is God's calling for His people. I raised my hand and said I like living on a farm and the SS teacher said God's true people would avoid ranching and farming because if he had animals the animals needed to be tended to on Sabbath and so if one was true to the Sabbath he would not have farm animals and also it was best to avoid crop farming because of unpredictable weather when a farmer would have to tend to the crops over Sabbaths sometimes. Made no sense to me because the man saying this was a doctor and right there in church on Sabbath his beeper would go off sometimes and out the door he'd dash. I was always so thankful that there were people who didn't know about Adventism so they could be the fireman and policeman and highway patrol over Saturdays. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2005 |
Susan_2 -- you are hillarious. To bad we can't all get together  I would probably get a side ache. I enjoy sometimes asking Adventists if they know of any Adventist acquantances who have received the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". I get back that funny look like "What planet did you step off of?" Gilbert | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 922 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, my recollection of the period of time that Adventists must live under a death threat is for one year. This is based on Revelation 18:8 and it is speaking of the Harlot of Babylon -- "Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her; death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her." (NIV) This year is begun by the going forth of the Sunday law that carries with it a death decree. Immediately after that the seven last plagues will fall, and they will all occur within that one year (1 day = 1 year, remember?). At the end of that year there is also the mention that there is silence in heaven for the space of a half hour, at the opening of the seventh seal, Rev. 8:1 -- When he opened the seventh seal there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." (NIV) The opening of the seventh seal, according to Adventist interpretation, signals the second coming. a half hour is 1/48th of a day, so it is a little more than a week. This will allow for the armies of heaven to descend upon the earth, resurrect the righteous dead, gather the righteous off the earth, then take a leisurely trip back to heaven, and along the way the whole group, according to Ellen, will stop off at one of the inhabited planets and celebrate their first Sabbath together as the "Saved of Earth." See, I did stay awake in all of those Revelation Seminars! Oh, by the way, in case any of you have noticed that the verse speaking of the end of the so-called Time of Trouble appears 10 chapters before the verse that speaks of it's beginning, it is because the Adventists say that John told and retold the story seven times (7 churches, then 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7, 7, 7, 7). Their interpretation of these events demand that they begin again at the beginning of the Christian church over and over, with each telling showing a bit more of the heavenly reward that is coming. This bit of information was given to me by a pastor friend of mine that I've known since academy days. |
