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Archive through February 11, 2006Jeremy20 2-11-06  8:42 pm
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Flyinglady
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Post Number: 2299
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Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,
So many Christians do not know what Adventism really believes, so they do not know it is a cult. To help correct that I gave my head pastor at my church 6 books written by former Adventists and explained why I was giving them to him. I am hoping he shared the books with the other ministerial staff. I told him I would be glad to talk to the staff and answer any questions they might have. So far I have not been asked.
So, if the other Christians do not know, how can they call it a cult. That is something I will have to leave up to God.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, very interesting link. Actually, the WCG leaders (at least Greg Albrecht) does now say Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet and a heretic.

Having seen the video "Called To Be Free", I have to say I had some strong reactions to what I consdered to be some cynical criticisms in the link to the video analysis. Without knowing all the background details behind the scenes, the video just as it stands is powerful and almost to a fault describes my story. In fact, the people to whom we've shown it all reacted the same way. The individuals shown on the video really spoke what I have felt and experienced, from their complete enthrallment to "Armstrongism" to their astonishment at discovering grace and freedom in Christ. Without knowing any of the background info, I found the video amazing and instructive. It's something I could show someone who didn't understand my experience of coming out of Adventism, and I would know they would finally "get it" after seeing the video.

On the other hand, I totally understand the ESN's distrust and criticism. After reading several pages on the link, my original thought that the WCG should simply have disbanded instead of trying to "reform" has only strengthened. I do not believe one can truly reform a cult. If people don't humble themselves to the point of being willing to start over and to be instructed by Christians who haven't shared their deception, they will probably always retain problematic doctrines.

I totally related to the site's editors regarding their distrust and the feeling that the "reformed" church hasn't dealt with the transgressions and abuses of the past. If the Adventist church went through a similar "change" and received acclaim from Christian leaders proclaiming it a true miracleóand if the church never officially renounced Ellen and admitted its greed and abuses, I would be similarly upset.

As you'll see in the current edition of Proclamation, we run a quote from Greg Albrecht concerning his [current!] belief that Armstrong was a false prophet and a heretic. He also states he's had to admit he also was a heretic.

The person critiquing the video takes him to task for suggesting that he [and by implication the members] must admit they were heretics instead of blaming Armstrong alone for heresy. In this, I strongly disagree with the critic. Whenever we suffer abuse, we are marked by it through no fault of our own. These marks, though, damage us, and we end up transgressing against others as a result.

I couldn't have gotten away from my anger and resentment of Adventism if I hadn't ultimately admitted I had been wrong in teaching it and embracing it. Even though I was deceived, I was guilty, and the guilt led me to aid in leading others astray. Just as Eve was guilty for being deceived by the serpent, I was guilty for hurting others through my loyalty to Adventism. I have had to ask God to forgive me for my sincere but wrong embracing of heresy.

While I disagree with the movie's critic in this instance as well as with some of what I consider to be cyncial analyses of the movie's production, I do, however, have serious reservations about the church continuing to exist. I believe the site raises valid concerns re: cults trying to appear mainstream and becoming enfolded into the Christian community. That very thing is, of course, my great concern re: Adventism.

Very interesting link, Stan.

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But the bottom line for me is the person who produced the video is Mike Feazell, and this is the author of that article about second chance salvation. I am reading this article more carefully than I did before, and I see some of the most unbelievable scripture twisting. I am not a theologian, so maybe someone who is can allay my anxiety here. After having been brought up in the strictest sect of SDA, I never saw anything as potentially damning as an article like this assuring folks they have a second chance after death if they don't believe the gospel in this life. I still have a lot of the 'old man' left in me. If i really believed this message they are teaching, I would be out tomorrow living it up again. I sure wouldn't be spending any time worrying about false theology. With this doctrine it doesn't matter what you believe, you will be saved anyway. Talk about "doctrines of demons". I wonder what Spurgeon or Luther would think of this doctrine.

Heb. 9:27 "It is appointed to man once to die, and then the judgment"
Here is Mike Feazell's statement "The idea that physical death is a barrier to God's ability to save, or to his ability to bring a person to faith in Christ, IS A HUMAN INTERPRETATION. THE BIBLE STATES NO SUCH THING..." Huh?

There is more, "Where do we get this notion that God is only able to save live people and not dead ones? He conquered death, didn't he? God doesn't hate the world; he loves it. He didn't create humanity for for hell, Christ came to save the world, not to condemn it.."

If the above is true, then let us eat, drink be merry, spend our time at race tracks and casinos (which I admit to doing in the past) and it is time to stop worrying about theology. Yes, then, maybe my time could be better spent.

But, no, there is a world out there headed for hell, and we are commanded to go out and warn people of the wrath to come. The WCG gospel says , no problem if you missed out on Christ in this life, you have a second chance. That is a lie from the pit of hell, and unless they renounce this doctrine, I won't be participating in promoting this WCG video in any way, because all it is, is a way to get people sucked in to another false gospel. Would someone tell me if a truly born again person could preach a gospel like that presented above? I don't see how, but I am open to someone coming on and explaining this to me.
Dennis
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another aberrant teaching that has been adopted in recent years (since their initial doctrinal changes in 1995) by the Worldwide Church of God is speaking in tongues. They do not allow speaking in tongues during their weekly worship services--only during small groups, prayer meetings, etc. Likewise, charismatic groups usually let loose during meetings other than in their Sunday morning service.

Dennis Fischer
Cindy
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Stan....yes, I think that is false theology (that we have a second chance after death). But.... what I saw in your post was something else.

You wrote that if this theology is true you would be out "living it up" tomorrow. Is your reason for being a Christian just to escape the wrath to come? Or is there a reward for being in Christ right now? Can Christianity be as good for us as "living it up"?

Or can being a Christian (having Jesus!) be really truely "living it up"? I would agree with the writer (Augustine?) who wrote "love the Lord your God with all of your heart...and then do as you please!"

We who are IN CHRIST have His Holy Spirit to give us a "check" to our behaviors...to our conscience.

The Gospel of Jesus does not come to us to quelch our fun, but to bring us that real joy...joy deep in our spirit..knowing we are one with Him.

grace always,
cindy

Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,
You are absolutely right. I was not talking about what I would actually do, I was projecting a little what someone who believed this doctrine would do. But Paul expressed it as I did, and I was paraphrasing 1 Cor 15. If Christ be not raised,...then let us eat, drink and be merry. It looks like Paul expressed the same sentiment.
No, I have been truly blessed, and the Lord has given me an unending zeal for the study of His Word. Sometimes, I probably don't express myself very well, and I appreciate your observation.

Stan
Colleentinker
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, I agree with you. This doctrine is dangerous. I really see this whole WCG phenomenon (and BTW, the site to which you linked said that there are talksówhether or not it will happenófor the church actually to change its name this year, apparently to escape the problems people associate with the name Worldwide Chruch of God) as underscoring the necessity of coming completely clean when one learns the gospel.

If people have been in a cultóin any organization based upon a false teacher, false doctrines, warped gospel, another Jesusóthey really need to leave it behind and move into Christianity. It's like the example I've often used: if the Mormons suddenly declared themselves rid of their spurious doctrines and possessed of the true gospel, would we really take them seriously if they stayed Mormons and "reformed" the church? I don't think so.

As Greg Taylor said, his preaching the gospel inside Adventism and trying to being about spiritual life and growth contributed to the problem. Confusion reigns, and the true gospel is veiled because the false doctrines are not fully renounced.

All this being said, I believe that God is not limited. He does bring people to know Jesus through the work of unsaved people sometimesówho knows? Maybe He even does so often.

Ultimately, wherever Christ is preached, He can glorify Himself in spite of the corruption surrounding it. He is faithful to lead people out of their messes and into increasing intimacy with and knowledge of Him. It is incumbent upon us, however, to be discerning and to pray for God to protect our hearts and minds from deception and to do in us what needs to be done.

God calls us to integrity, and following Him for His sake is what He desires.

Colleen
Cindy
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

I can see now how you meant your comments...my misunderstanding. This reminds me of how incomplete this method of communication can be at times.

And, I would agree with you it is worth pursuing and striving for doctrinal purity...correct theology. We all would not be here if not for the Spirits' leading us to evaluate all doctrine in light of the Cross of Christ.

grace always to you!
cindy
Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Colleen and Cindy.

BTW, Cindy it is great to see you back! I know you were associated with one of the greatest churches ever, and that is Tenth Presbyterian church in Philadelphia. You were under James Montgomery Boice. I heard that he bucked the dogma of the Westminster Confession with regard to the Sabbath. He went back to what John Calvin really taught.

I was really inspired at our last Friday night FAF Bible study when a member of our group who is former SDA, and has come so far in a short time, said he just happened to be in a Barnes and Noble bookstore, and was looking for something else, but just happened to stumble across a book by John Calvin called lectures on the Ten Commandments. He bought it, and immediately turned to the section on the fourth commandment, and he said he got goose bumps. Here was John Calvin saying exactly the same things Dale Ratzlaff said in his book "Sabbath in Christ". Calvin was very clear that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ. It was only the Westminster confession that added man's doctrine of Sunday Sabbatarianism. Also, this FAF Bible study member was impressed how interesting it was studying the beauty of God's laws in the light of grace, and the light of the fulfillment in Jesus. When the Law has no claim on us, then the Law becomes a delight! As long as we see that it points to the glorious righteousness that is in Christ.

Sola Gratia

Stan
Cindy
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Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Stan.

Yes, Dr. Boice was a wonderful expository preacher...he sure died too young!

I also attended another Presbyterian (PCA) church back East for awhile with a pastor who had some great sermons on Galations and Romans; and yet, he just couldn't see the problems with the Westminister Confession in regards to the 4th Commandment...but we had some good discussions and I still miss his thoughtful sermons.

I will have to look up that Calvin book to add to my list of must-reads!

grace always,
cindy

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