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Insearchof
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Username: Insearchof

Post Number: 46
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As many of you here are former SDAs or perhaps (like me) you are still an SDA but are studying your way out, I am curious about something and would like to hear your opinions...

At church this past week, I heard a presentation about the fact that we are living in the 'last days' and our 'message' is more important than ever. Several interesting points were brought up. I will list them in no particular order of importance:

1. Roman Catholics believe that we (SDAs) are a true threat to them since we keep Saturday as the Sabbath. All other Protestants are considered as still part (in some way) of Catholicism since they keep to Sunday sacredness. Since the RCC is responsible for 'switching the day', all that currently observe Sunday as sacred are really followers of Rome.

2. The SDA church is the only Protestant denomination that did not sign the ECT document promising that no members of another Christian organization would proselytize anothers members.

3. The RCC met with leaders of the SDA church because the SDA church would not sign the ECT document. In these meetings the following was discussed:

Q: Does the SDA church consider the RCC to be a Christian denomination?
A: Yes
Q: If you consider us (RCC) to be Christian, why do you sheep steal?
A: We have a message to come out of Babylon. We hold to the Protestant belief that the RCC is the beast of Revelation.

According to the SDAs at this meeting, the RCC considers the SDA church the biggest threat to them (the RCC). Also (again, according to those at the meeting), the SDA church and its success in South/Central America and Africa are the first item on the agenda at every meeting of the RCC clergy (American Bishops, Cardinals, etc).

And last, we (the SDA church) are the only Protestant denomination that has remained true to the Reformer's belief that the RCC is the beast spoken of in Revelation.

Curious for your thoughts or commentary.

I found myself frustrated. I have heard too many times that we (the SDAs) are the inheritors of the Reformation but it seems to bother no one that the SDA church has no idea what Justification by Faith is, not to mention that one of the main tenants of the Reformation was also the issue that God works monergistically in our salvation, not synergistically. Try to bring that up in a SS class!

I find it curious that SDAs can consider the RCC a Christian church. Not to cast stones, but this strikes me a wrong on a number of levels. Profession of Jesus as Christ does not necessarily make a church Christian. With a system based on works in order to merit salvation, the position of Mary as co-redemtrix, etc, etc. it seems somewhat problematic to consider the RCC as Christian (at least in the Reformed sense of the word).

Sorry to ramble. I have not posted in a while and I guess I needed to catch up!

InSearchOf
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 245
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Believing in Jesus is what makes a person Christian.

The Roman Catholic Church is as much a Christian Church as is the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Both teach a different gospel than in the bible.

I grew up in a Catholic family around Catholics. I've seen many charitable acts, I've seen many good works and I believe some Catholics will be in heaven. I always saw the crosses and Jesus and prayed in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. I personally saw more pictures of Jesus around my family, fewer of Mary.

I think the comment about the Catholics feeling threatened by the SDAs is completely false. I saw bad stuff within my Catholic family because of the church, so I wasn't against their anti-Catholic message when I became Adventist. My Catholic relatives see the Catholic church as "The True Church". The other churches, the Protestants, they just have all of these different little doctrinal changes. No Catholic would care about the Sabbath issue and few would want to become Adventist especially because of how strict they are. At least the Catholics can eat what they want and drink alcohol.

There is absolutely no way that any church, or person for that matter, can say that the Catholic church, for a fact is, "The Beast in Revelation". It is a good speculation at best. But to say it is a fact, it cannot be proven.

I just want to praise Jesus for what he has done on the cross and do his will. I will study too, but I don't need anything besides the bible. Nobody to interpret it for me.

I don't know how you are going to study your way out of Adventism if you keep studying Adventism. I think I would lose my mind if I tried to do that.

I am relying 100% on the Armor of God - Which is the Word of God.

The Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.



Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insearchof,

It is very interesting what you brought up. I am just curious if you ever read the book I linked to on "The Romans Revolution" thread called "The Shaking of Adventism" by Geoffrey Paxton? In that book, he so well takes Adventism's thesis that they are heirs of the reformation, and totally dismantles that thesis. It is a powerful book and speaks a lot of what you are talking about. Thanks for bringing up this very fascinating topic.

Stan
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1264
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 8:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a hard time believing the Catholic church gives a "knat's breath" about what the SDA or any other church thinks. They have long stood against the social tide in regards to abortion and birth control to name two off the top. While I'm sure they want to have amicable relations with others in the world, I'm sure that stops short of embracing their theological constructs.

SDAs still think "we" hold Sunday as sacred. While I guess there are some who might, I'd say the greater majority don't. But to acknowledge that would really throw SDA end-time scenarios into a tail spin. What would they do without the hopes of a national sunday law where they can prove loyalty to the sabbath??

I don't know what this ECT document is.....

Their arguments are not founded on good assumptions, so the rest of their proofs are faulty. But it sounds like standard adventist teaching to me.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1266
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(for those not in my praise team, you may not recognize the association to the proverbial "gnat". We call it a k-nat for a reason only logical if you were there....Sorry for forgetting my audience :-))
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3311
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insearchof, I don't believe, as stated above, that the RCC is concerned about Adventism in a negative way at all. First, on a Catholic website (which he now can't recall) Richard read, a few years ago, the Catholic view of various denominations. On this website it stated that Catholics recognize Adventist baptism because it is into a church, not just an individual act of personal faith. That means that Catholics would allow baptized Adventists to take communion with them, but they would not allow evangelical Christians to take communion because their baptism is not into a church body but into Christ.

This website further explained that the RCC does not recognize evangelical Christianity because it is individual. The RCC believes salvation is through the church; you become part of the church, and thereby you join the body of Christ and find salvation. They believe there is no "idependent" salvation of one person alone with God. In their eyes, salvation is through the medium of belonging to The True Church.

Because Adventists also have a similar understanding of belonging to a "true church" body, they recognize Adventist baptism but not evangelical baptism.

Second, there is much financial "deal making" and profit making shared between Adventist church reps and Catholic/Vatican reps. The people in the pews have no idea how the two churches secretly work together behind the scenes to mutually benefit each other. The story of Robert Folkenberg's lawsuit involving his business partner who is a fund raiser for one one the Vatican's charities opened up the depth and the length of the quite cooperation of the two. Some of the storeis are in the Adventist Today archives online from 1999.

Colleen
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 247
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

This sounds a little complex. But perhaps this is why my Lutheran cousin always takes communion when she goes to the Catholic church. She was baptized Catholic as a baby as all of us were. But she was raised in Catholic schools and was very involved in the Catholic church, I wasn't. She married a Lutheran and became Lutheran and goes to a Lutheran church now. Perhaps because Lutherans believe in one baptism, and she wasn't baptized again, she can technically take communion in the church. Before she was married, she dated an Adventist for a while and visited the church I attended in California a few times.

Lynne
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2106
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only people who know that the Catholic church is out to get SDA's are the SDA's. Likewise, the only people who know that "false Christiandom" is out to get JW's are the JW's. I remember being around 17 years old. Someone had asked me if I attended a church and I responded that I went to the SDA church. This person asked me what the SDA church taught and believed. Here I was just about ready to enter adulthood and had been raised SDA and educated in SDa schools and all I could think of to tell the person that SDA's believe is that the SDA church teaches that the Catholic church is wrong and we are not allowed to eat pork or drink alchoal or go to dances and that deopending on your individual family there could be very few or a lot of rules about how to "keep Sabbath". I really doubt if my SDA teastomony ever got anyone conveerted to Adventism! Ha! Ha1!
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1260
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it was GC president Neal C. Wilson who publically stated about 20 years ago that SDAs anti-catholicism has hit the trash-heap of history.

It is only some of the zealous laity that you see posting on R/S and other rightwing SDA web-sites that still have that anti-catholic zeal. However, the laity are getting stronger, and they are pushing books like "Sunday Law" as mentioned on that thread.

It is mainly those who care strongly for Reformation Christianity as expressed by Luther and Calvin, that are carrying the necessary message, that Catholicism is another gospel, and just very may have something to do with the anti-christ.

Melissa,
The ECT document that was signed about 10 years ago was an effort to get evangelicals and Catholics together (ECT) It was a disaster. The evangelicals who signed the document felt very bad about what happened. There can be no partnership between the Kingdom of Christ, and as John MacArthur says "The Kingdom of Satan", which he says the RCC has been through their entire history.

Stan
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1271
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting, Stan.

BTW. Question. Are you familiar with MacArthur's book "The murder of Jesus"? Have you read it and what do you think of the title? It hits me strong because I keep remembering Jesus words that no one took his life, but he lay it down. So calling Jesus' death "murder" just hits me negatively. Anyway, I saw it in a catalog with Easter stuff and wondered if you (or anyone) were familiar with it enough to explain the title.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
You make an excellent point. I don't want to give the impression that I believe everything MacArthur writes. There are several areas of disagreement, but I like the fact that he is as close to Biblical on so many things, especially with regard to the Sabbath, as he endorsed Dale
Ratzlaff's book Sabbath in Christ.

Specifically with regard to the book "murder of Jesus", it may be an attention grabbing device as that book is very good, but I have only skimmed it in bookstores. But in a nutshell which is short MacArthur explains his view on the death of Christ at www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/blame.htm

Stan
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1280
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The SDAs claim that they are inheritors of the Reformation is a joke! There is nothing even remotely similar in SDA theology to that of Luther and Calvin. In fact, the facts will show that they are 180 degrees opposite.

SDAs and Rome are works-oriented and human free-will oriented, and man centered. Reformation theology is entirely grace centered, God-centered, and God's will is supreme.

If you are interested in exploring the differences further, then read Geoffrey Paxton's book with a link posted under the thread Romans Revolution called "Shaking of Adventism".

If you are interested in exploring the very basic difference between SDA and Rome theology, and Reformation theology of Luther and Calvin, then there is a very informative article that I've posted before at www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index004.htm
This is an article by New Covenant theologian John Reisinger called "There are only Two religions in the World" One is man's religion of "what man wills", and the other religion is one of "free grace". The comparisons are illustrated very clearly, and it is a very readable and interesting article.

Stan
Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 91
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 5:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps the big difference is evidently in the writings of Martin Luther. Both his commentary on Galatians and "Bondage of the Will" are online and free to download at this adventist site http://maranathamedia.com.au

Yes, it's a adventist site, with a huge collection of adventists books, but, because of antichatolic position of Luther, and his endorsement by Ellen White, his books are on this site.

Enjoy for free his masterpiece, "Bondage of the Will"
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Jackob, I do have to give this SDA web site a lot of credit for making both those books available by Luther. Thanks for pointing that out.
Luther's Galatians was the book I read shortly after I memorized the book of Galatians just after becoming saved out of Adventism, then when I read that book and compared it to scripture, it was the break through of my life. John Bunyan, of 'Pilgrim's Progress' fame said Luther's Galatians was the most important book second only to the Bible.

"Bondage of the Will" was a different story for me. I read it shortly after becoming saved, and I didn't like the message. It was though I wanted to shoot the messenger. For about eight years after becoming saved I was under the mistaken impression that it was my free will that chose Jesus as my Savior. I was still just as much saved as I am today, but as Bible truth became even clearer over time, I had to come to the conclusion that salvation was entirely of grace--all of God, and not of my own choosing.

So recently I decided to try to re-read "Bondage of the Will". Now, I just love the book. What a great theological mind Luther had! It is great to see him dismantle the arguments of Erasmus, the Roman Catholic theologian, and dismantle the arguments of the very early church fathers. Luther even got Erasmus to admit that he might be right about this doctrine, but it would not be good for the masses, as they would get upset. This idea sounds very familiar today, because whenever anyone today in evangelical circles brings up this topic of "Free-Will", then everyone gets uncomfortable, and it is like that elephant in the room, no one is comfortable discussing this because it works against human reason.

So Jackob, I wasn't near as advanced as you were this early out of SDA as you obviously are with your excellent reading list as you suggested above.

Stan
Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 1:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, I read first an abridge version of "Bondage of the Will" and accepted only the bondage but not the predestination, even if they are inseparable united. I had believed that after somebody is born again he has NOW the power to choose to remain in his new state, or go back to bondage. I have also a former adventist friend who is very vocal advocating for bondage of the will, but scorns predestination. I was the one who had given him the abridge version and he also pruchase d and offered it to anyone who is interested in the subject.
But when I had read the entire version on the web I was exposed to the full force of arguments. Until then I have very bad experiences with the power of sin, and experimentally was a wreck. This opened me to recognize the real power of sin and the fact that God must take alone the glory of salvation. Praise Him alone for His marvelous power and grace in His work. Amen.

Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1296
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen Jackob,
It has been great following your story since you came on FAF, and seeing how God has done His work of grace in your heart. We will be praying for you and your family that they will also come to fully appreciate the riches of grace, and to experience the joy to be freed from a religious system that binds the souls of people.

Stan
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 575
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,

I have John MacArthur's book entitled, "THE MURDER OF JESUS: A Study of How Jesus Died" in my library. I will quote excerpts from the Introduction of this 250-page book:

"Christ was no mere victim of unjust men when He hung on the cross. Though murdered unjustly and illegally by men whose intentions were only evil, CHRIST DIED WILLING, becoming an atonement for the sins of the very ones who killed him. It was the greatest sacrifice ever made; the purest act of love ever carried out; and ultimately an infinitely higher act of divine justice thatn all the human injustice it represented...

Many wrongly think of Christ as merely a victim of humand injustice, a martyr who suffered tragically and unnecesarily. But the truth is that His death was God's plan. In fact, it was the key to God's eternal plan of redemption. Far from being an unnecessary tragedy, the death of Christ was a glorious victory--the most gracious and wonderful act dvine benevolence ever rendered on behalf of sinners. It is the consummate expression of God's love for them.

Yet here also we see the wrath of God against sin. What is too often missed in all our songs and sermons about the Cross is that it was the outpouring of divine judgment against the person of Christ--not because He deserved that judgment, but because He bor it on behalf of those whom He would redeem...

Christ's death is by far the most important event in human history. It the focal point of the Christian faith and will be our refuge in the final judgment. Therefore it also ought to be the main sanctuary for every believer's private meditation. All our most precious hopes stem from the Cross of Christ, and therefore our highest thoughts should also be rooted there...

My approach will be to examine the biblical chronicle of crucifixion events as a historical narrative, rather than dealing with the doctrine of the atonement strictly in the manner of a theologian...My prayer is that as you read you will be gripped not only the gross miscarriage of human justice, but also by the remarkable wonder of divine justice, which provided salvation for sinners who could never have rescued themselves."

Dennis J. Fischer
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1274
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Dennis.
Jackob
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Post Number: 95
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Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Stan for the prayers. I wish I realize more fully the power of prayer in the life of others. Until now I don't have a good experience in praying for others. All I have obtained were the loss of friends for whom I have prayed, no one accepted my new life. I'm sorry for this, but I really want to believe in intercesory prayer. I believe, but I have to conquer my grief every time I pray for my foremr friends.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3351
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, one thing I am slowly learning is that God never promises to show us the results of our prayers for others; He just asks us to pray. Many times, of course, He does show us the results, but very often we don't see the outcome for years if at all.

The thing we can't see is what goes on in the spiritual realm. We don't really know how prayer works, but I think we all have had the experience of God holding us in peace and calm as the result of others praying for us during crises.

I understand the grief of praying for friends but seeing no results. God asks us to submit those people to Him--to give up our efforts to "fix" themóand to pray for them out of trust and obedience to Him. God absollutely knows what each person needs.

When I think how many years it took for me to see the reality of Jesus and the truth about SDAism, I am astonished.

God longs to be your Comfort and to come into your grief and transform it. He will not waste anythingónot your prayers nor your grief. He will redeem your deep disappointment and sufferingóand He asks us to trust Him and obey His commands to pray even when we see no results.

He is our all-in-all.

Praying for you, Jackob!

Colleen

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