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Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to see a study on the book of Revelations,I dont believe in the rapture,and to me the SDA church did make sense as far as the 1000 yrs,the plagues,the beasts as it correlates with history.to be honest with you Im not sure what I think as far as the mark is or represents. What am I missing here? Im thankful for all of your counsel,Dawn
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1097
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The SDA version of the Millennium has so many problems that I don't know where to start. I never thought I would be linking to an article by Garner Ted Armstrong (false prophet), but the section discussing EGW's perversion of Scripture may be helpful:

http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/pubs/WhereMillennium.htm

Also, this article may be helpful: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw26.htm

I do not agree with everything in these articles, but they should be helpful in showing the problems with the SDA view. Revelation 20 makes it clear that the Millennial Reign is on Earth, not in heaven. It also makes it clear that Satan is not on earth during the Millennium--that is just part of their blasphemous scapegoat doctrine. But according to the Bible, Satan is "chained up," not "set free" as the scapegoat is.

Jeremy
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 153
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wolfgang said:

quote:

Im not sure what I think as far as the mark is or represents.




I'll share with you how I approached this one. Since Seventh-day Adventism makes such a huge deal about the Mark of the Beast being associated with Sunday worship, and Ellen White states that the Seal of God is the Seventh-day Sabbath, I started with a study of my own to see what the Bible actually had to say about the "Seal of God". After all, that is something we all want, don't we? I figured, according to Revelation, that if I could identify the "Seal of God", the "Mark of the Beast" would be whatever the "Seal of God" was not.

Even Ellen White wrote, "The time has come when all who have an interest in their soul's salvation should earnestly and solemnly inquire, What is the seal of God? (Signs of the Times, Nov.1, 1899)

"The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarkation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and transgressor. ... It is the seal of the living God." (Selected Messages Book 3, p. 423)

And in Testimonies, vol 5, p 207-216 is an entire chapter that she devotes to the Seal of God. She also states, "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement."

I use the free downloadable Bible from http://onlinebible.net. It comes with Strong's Concordance and a plethora of other useful tools. My search of "seal of God" in all of its different permutations yielded entirely different results. I encourage you to do your own study and see what your Bible tells you.

I finally formulated a position statement, and then found that a former SDA pastor (http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/1998/janfeb1998/news/OregonPastor.shtml) had stated it better than I ever could:
Replacing the Holy Spirit with the Seventh-day Sabbath

By calling the Sabbath God's seal instead of acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is God's seal, we have come perilously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I believe that this position is unbiblical and offensive to God. First of all, if the Word of God teaches that the Holy Spirit is the seal of God -- and I believe it does -- then the third person of the Godhead is the rightful owner of that chair. If we have placed the Sabbath -- something that God created -- in God's chair, then we have taken something that God created and placed it in the seat of the Deity.

Whenever we place something God created in the position He claims as His position, we've declared war on God's right to be our God! Our God is a Jealous God! I truly believe that Adventism is in serious danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit with its traditional teaching regarding the seal of God. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a dangerous place to be! I believe the Sabbath is significant, but the way the church has taught it is wrong, and we need to repent of it."


These are a summary of my study notes:
"Gilbert's Bible Study for September 24, 2005
Question: See Rev 7:2-3 and 9:4. What does the Bible say the "Seal of God is?"

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


==== Verses I found ====
Verses I found:
John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christís sake hath forgiven you.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


==== Questions ====
1. If the Seal of God is the Seventh-day Sabbath then do all Sabbatarians, including Jews, have the Seal of God? Didn't the Pharisees and Sadducees keep the Seventh-day Sabbath?
2. Where in the Bible is the Sabbath ever called a ěSealî?
3. According to the Bible, what are the requirements for receiving the Seal of God?


==== What the Bible Seems To Say to Me ====
We receive our salvation by faith as a promise by Christ to all of those who believe. Christ then places the Holy Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee that our inheritance is assured, and welcomes us into his heavenly family. Isn't this the "Seal of God"? He then takes charge of our lives, and guides us in our every day walk with Christ. This is how we then manifest the "fruits of the Spirit" that Paul talks about. This, combined with Christ's freely available gift of salvation, is how we "appear" perfect before God the Father. It seems to me that this "plan of redemption" is what the Lord's leading the children of Israel out of Egypt foreshadowed."

Randyg
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Username: Randyg

Post Number: 121
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert,

Thank-you for sharing your study.It seems quite definitive to me. I appreciate your thoroughness and clarity.

Randy
Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert and Jeremy,thankyou both this is going to take some time for me to study. you both gave alot of "food" to digest and discern. I'll keep you posted. And I'll study with hubby and God will lead.My husband I beleive has the gift of discernment,he's been uninvolved with the church for a long time, since hearing a sermon that has about "our" delaying the Lord's return,and then another about living a higher standard then a non SDA,and all that higher standard requiremnt was,was being a vegetarin. SIGH.....
So this Rev study will be good for us to ,he's been out of the Word for about a year now,but since I've been involved here and going to another church we have been studying Romans together.
In fact last night we were studying about faith and how God credited Abraham for having faith that he would be the Father of many nations,well after the study my husband said didnt Abraham have Haggar because his faith was a little weak?
but yet the bible said he was justified by faith.
so that gives me hope, he thought SDA would benefit from reading Romans. Because I m sure we have all heard it that if we had more faith Christ would return or if we had more faith we could become a vegetarin,or if we had more faith we might not be sick. and the list goes on. But praise God we have a hope that we are justified by faith,amen,Dawn
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 155
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dawn -- what a beautiful testimony! It is so wonderful to see the Holy Spirit leading in each of our lives. I see the same sweet influence in the life of my spouse :-)

Gilbert
Lisa_boyldavis
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Username: Lisa_boyldavis

Post Number: 168
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Dawn,

My pastor did an entire series on Revelation. I am sure he'd be glad to send you notes. His perspective was so amazing... the Book of Revelation is the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. It's a mini-drama of the GOSPEL in a nutshell. If you want to order the sermons or the sermon notes, the email address is Office@MVCCweb.org. Just attn. it to Roland Classen, Sr. Pastor. Another friend off FAF has also enjoyed his sermons.

Lisa
Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa thankyou I have emailed him for the notes,I may be in hibernation for awhile studying. But this is so exciting for me. Thankyou all!
Dawn
PS Gilbert you are so organized in your study notes,Im always very impressed.
Russkellyphd
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Username: Russkellyphd

Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2006


Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since I do believe in the Rapture, I will stay out of this one. It all depends on what you do with all of the unconditional promises made to national Israel.

However, you might want to know that Ellen Gould White also totals 666 when added vertically and when the "W" is turned into 2 "V"s.
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Russ - One of the things I really cherish about this forum is that we can all have different opinions as the Holy Spirit impresses us directly, and we don't feel threatened. What a "breath of fresh air" from the dogmatic Adventist approach where Ellen White is deemed to be the "final word" on how the Bible is interpreted.

I really enjoy the rich interaction and mutual respect we all have here.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

interesting about EGW and 666 Russ,I never heard that before.
And a hearty amen to that Gilbert,im very thankful for the loving approach everyone has here. Because if we have not love we are bankrupt,and all that we may do is for nothing,if we have no love.
Dawn
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1099
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I keep the EGW=666 thing in an MS Word file, for reference. :-) Here it is:

E = 0
L = 50
L = 50
E = 0
N = 0

Ellen: 50 + 50 = 100

G = 0
O = 0
U = 5
L = 50
D = 500

Gould: 5 + 50 + 500 = 555

W = 5 + 5
H = 0
I = 1
T = 0
E = 0

White: 5 + 5 + 1 = 11

Ellen Gould White: 100 + 555 + 11 = 666

Ellen Gould White = 666
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2324
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somewhere in the computer of my mind I remember hearing about 666 representing EGWhite also. It was before I was kicked out of the church.
And, yes Russ, we do agree to disagree and not get uptight about it.
I am constantly amazed by the general spirit on this forum of love and acceptance, even when two do not agree.
To me it shows what God can do when an individual accepts and loves Him.
He is always awesome.
Diana

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