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Archive through February 22, 2006Jeremy20 2-22-06  1:19 pm
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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynne,

Thanks for quoting Rev. 20:10. Please notice that the beast and the false prophet were thrown together into the "lake of fire" BEFORE the millennium as mentioned in Rev. 19:20. Interestingly, AFTER the millennium, Satan was thrown into the very same lake of fire "WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE ALSO [present tense] as stated in Rev. 20:10. Thus, the beast and false prophet are still there in torment after 1,000 years. This certainly doesn't support the quick-fix of annihilationism.

Dennis Fischer
Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It looks like this thread has a number of topics going at once now. :-) Yes, Lynne, I agree with Javagirl. That is why I put the word "Inspired" in the title of my webpage, because EGW claimed that these things she wrote were inspired by God! It proves her to be a false prophet. Some of those quotes on my webpage also prove that she was not a Christian.

Goldenbear,

Here are a couple of links to some short audio clips from oneplace.com about Hell, which you might find helpful:

http://boss.streamos.com/real/swn/oneplace/rm/bam/oneanswer/bam70.ram

http://boss.streamos.com/real/swn/oneplace/rm/ihg/oneanswer/ihg02.ram

Also, here is a link to a great rebuttal of the SDA death doctrine, that is part of the audio presentation by Tim Oliver that Heretic linked to: http://www.thinkabouteternity.com/SDA/Assets/Sound/03%20SDA%20Death%20-%2012min%2002sec%20.mp3

(The rest of this post is not in any way personally directed at you, Goldenbear. I just wanted to make that clear--since I do word things strongly. :-))

It is this simple: If we as humans have neither a spirit or soul that survives death, then Jesus Christ is not God. That's how important this issue is! According to the SDA doctrine, when Jesus died, He either had to have ceased to exist (which means He was not God--and also that He could not have been resurrected, thus He no longer exists--only someone that looks like Jesus was "re-created") or He had a "divine spirit" which inhabited a mere human (which also means He is not God, and is Gnosticism, which God says is antichrist--1 John 4:1-3 and 2 John 1:7).

The SDA doctrine of "spirit=breath" also denies the whole reality of being born again! Jesus states clearly in John 3:6 that it is our spirit which is regenerated/born again.

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6'That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7'Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.''" (John 3:5-7 NASB.)

It is our spirit which has been brought to life eternal by the Holy Spirit and is eternally connected to Him. The SDA doctrine denies that we have eternal life now as Jesus says, and they say that you don't get eternal life until the Second Coming.

The SDA doctrine also denies that Jesus is fully human, by denying that He had a human spirit and soul (this is one of the earliest heresies dealt with by the Christian Church, and is what was taught by Gnosticism and Apollinarianism, and is what God's Word says is antichrist--1 John 4:1-3 and 2 John 1:7). EGW also taught that God the Father has a body just like Jesus does (although she later denied that Jesus currently does!), which denies the very important doctrine of the incorporeality of God, just like Mormonism. She also wrote that angels (Satan) have flesh. These teachings make everything material, meaning that the SDA "god" is a material god! The Bible says that God is spirit. So, the "spirit=breath" teaching blasphemes God. It blasphemes the Holy Spirit in the same way.

The "ceasing to exist when you die" doctrine is just materialism/atheism. It is not Christian. This is the doctrine of atheist/evolutionist Dr. Richard Dawkins who says that when you die you just "rot in the ground." You just end. That's what the SDA book (published by the SDA church) When A Man Dies explicitly teaches:

"So in death there is no life. The man does not live; the body does not live; the soul does not live; the spirit does not live; the mind does not live. Intelligence ends, consciousness ends, memory ends, knowledge ends, thought ends. All that has comprised the man ends" (When A Man Dies, page 20.)

This is a message of utter hopelessness. It denies any possibility of a resurrection. If you have "ended," then the new person God "re-creates" may look and think like you, but it cannot be you! You have come to an end. You have been annihilated. As the Apostle Paul says, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" (1 Corinthians 15:32 NASB)!

The SDA spirit/soul/death doctrine denies: spiritual death (dead spirit), spiritual life (and anything "spiritual"), being born again, eternal life, the resurrection of the dead, eternal hell, the humanity of Jesus Christ, the deity of Jesus Christ, the Gospel, Salvation, etc. It denies basically every essential and basic doctrine of the Christian faith! Folks, this is not a "minor issue" as some people seem to think!

The Seventh-day Adventist spirit/soul/death doctrine is a denial of Christianity itself.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on February 25, 2006)
Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS: The koine Greek does not support the translation of "were" that is found in some Bibles in Rev. 20:10--only the present tense "are" is an accurate rendering. For example, the NIV also mistranslates "sheol" as grave in at least one instance. I find the NASB to be more accurate to the original Greek and Hebrew than most others.

It is noteworthy that SDA apologists are quick to accept and quote these mistranslated passages to their advantage.

Dennis Fischer
Windmotion
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert, do you really think Adventism is "experiential"? Adventists I know frown on the "emotionalism" they see in non-Adventists. Which is why when you visit an Adventist church you find the "worship" completely devoid of emotion, and people participating in the service hardly at all. (of course many of them spend the sermon time trying to occupy toddlers, which bolsters my opinion Adventists go to church out of a sense of duty not because they hope to "get anything out of it")
I think because Adventists have their arguments so clearly laid out in their minds with all their sidesteps and strawmen that it makes them so difficult to reach.
Responsively,
Hannah
Lynne
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis - Thank you. That makes sense to me. It is exciting to see it in a new light.

Jeremy - From a personal perspective, this is how I came into the church. I did not understand the significance of soul sleep. It is not a minor issue.

I came to the Adventist church unsaved. Raised around Catholics.

I was about 20 years old. I was ready to become a believer.

I knew I didn't want to be a Catholic. I knew that Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses were cults. I knew people who were Christians, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. Nobody I knew thought SDAs were anything but Christian.

I was sick as a child and was in an Adventist hospital for quite some time. I accepted their health message, as my doctors encouraged me to take care of myself through diet.

When I checked out the Adventists, I was given information about repenting and being born again and accepting Jesus as my Saviour. It sounded like everyone else.

The Adventists started me reading Matthew, John, the New Testament. I believed John 3:16 and I was born again. I think the Adventists bring many outsiders to accepting Jesus in their hearts. I could feel a separation of the spirit. But I didn't know the significance of the soul sleep doctrine. I just trusted the Adventists. They appeared harmless and open minded to me.

All of the teachings just did not connect for me to be able to understand what was really going on. There was just that brainwashing technique that they use to make everything sound so accurate.

Therefore, it is my experience that the Seventh-day Adventist Church ignited the fire in me, that is the Holy Spirit, only to eventually burn it out with false doctrine. It is called the schemes of the devil.

Without the protective armor stated in Ephesians, nobody, no human, no matter how intelligent, has a chance against the devil.

It is a spiritual war and Christ won the battle for us when He was nailed to the Cross on our behalf.

Now I have the sword of the Spirit, which protects me, the devil cannot take it away. The Adventists say, we don't have that separate Spirit, so many of us lose touch with the Spirit and become disarmed. In Adventist garble, it is called, bringing one out of their feelings, feelings are false (the Holy Spirit), and bringing them into the knowledge of the truth, that is the law. Satanic!

Who after experiencing Adventism can go out into the world on their own and explain what has happened to them, or explain their spiritual experience to another Christian. They can't. They become isolated and lost. Such as my feelings and many other people. We want to know God, but our experience is too fragmented and unreal. Everything got mixed up.

But now, through the the Word of God, accurately stated, the devil has to go somewhere else.

Psalm 147:1 Praise the LORD. How good it is to sing praises to our God, how pleasant and fitting to praise him!

Lynne


Jorgfe
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah -- good question.

I think that a very standard, bottom-line reason many. many Seventh-day Adventists join and remain in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is that they have a dramatic or heartfelt experience that has occurred to them confirming the "truth" of Adventism. The experience gets labeled and reinforced by the Adventist community as a "testimony" -- a message from God.

On numerous occasions, such as church services, prayer meetings, evangelistic services, 3ABN and campmeetings, each of us have heard people get up and give their "testimony". When I was a child there was even a special "testimony time". Now it usually occurs with an elder and a "roving microphone" while getting people's prayer requests.

We are taught numerous miraculous stories as evidences of the Lord's leading. Our books and publications are full of them. All of this affirmation has a deeply profound emotional and cultural effect.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah,

That is an astute observation, "Adventists go to church out of a sense of duty not because they hope 'to get anything out of it.'" Yes, I remember trying to keep my toddlers calm and quiet in church. It was an unpleasant experience at times. The children didn't get much out of the service either. It is very legalistic to force young children to pretend they are listening and understanding an adult sermon. Thank God for nurseries and children's church!

Dennis Fischer
Cindy
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy...thanks so much for your last post; a simple and clear explanation!
grace,
cindy
Seekr777
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert,

You said, "We are taught numerous miraculous stories as evidences of the Lord's leading. Our books and publications are full of them. All of this affirmation has a deeply profound emotional and cultural effect."

Do I understand you to say that the Lord cannot lead an Adventist or perform miracles in their life?

Richard

rtruitt@mac.com


Jorgfe
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard -- please forgive me if I left you with that impression. I believe that the Lord can, and does work miracles in the lives of both "believers" and "unbelievers" -- to His good will. We have a couple of books about angels that are full of thrilling Adventist experiences. I have no reason to believe that they are not genuine.

In my own life and the lives of family members, as an Adventist, I can recount numerous experiences that confirm to me beyond any doubt the leading of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure that all of us can relate to that. Does that make Adventism sound doctrinally -- since I was Adventist at the time?

Perhaps a better way to approach this question might be to ask, "Is the fact that the Lord performs a miracle an indication that a particular religious belief is automatically sound doctrine?" It is natural for us to treat this phenomenon as positive confirmation.

Here in the heart of Zion -- as the Mormons affectionately call it, stories abound (especially during the yearly General Conference time) of the many miracles God has wrought. Testimonies flow freely. Who am I to judge whether they are true, or not?

These religious experiences do much to warm the fires of the Mormon soul though, and make them feel "experientially" that this is "proof" that their theology and culture is the one and only true religion. As they say after every testimony, "I know the Church is true!"

Gilbert Jorgensen
Colleentinker
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Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, I also thank you for your post above. I also have come to see the heresy of soul sleep (as the Adventists teach it) to be the foundational of all heresies in the denomination because of the very reasons you cite: it alters the identity of Jesus, and it denies the new birth.

It is very subtleóbut it is an egregious heresy that prevents people from fully understaning and experiencing the reality of Jesus and of their new life in Him. It trivializes sin as well as salvation. It is not a neutral issue.

As far as miracles and Adventists go, God can absolutely perform miracles however for whomever, and through whomever He wishes. No holds barred. The probelm with the Adventist miracles stories, however, is that so many of them are fabricated.

For example, a certain television ministry tells of certain huge miracles related to its founding. In reality, those stories are not true. They have been embellished until they are completely invented situations, and they are used in fund raising to generate emotion and a sense of awe for God thus exciting the listeners' urges to give generously.

Further, many of the mission stories that have been published over the years are embellished and fabricated as well. Richard tells of his grandmother writing for Our Little Friend when he was small. She used Richard and his brother as the subjects for her storyówhich was published. His mother was horrified when the story appeared because it was not true. The story had been embellished and changed to make his grandmother's point.

I have also had many conversations with a person who used to be a book editor for one of the major denominational publishing houses. The things I have learned regarding different well-known Adventist authors and their materials have left me pretty suspect of "official" SDA narrative publications, including mission stories.

Yes, God can lead and do miracles in Adventists' lives. No, not all the stories we read represent reality.

Colleen
Jorgfe
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 5:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard -- here is an example. I am finding that so much of what we have been indoctrinated with (and we have taught our children) is based on Ellen White's falsehoods, rather than the Bible. It is really frustrating.

As conscientious 4th generation SDA parents, we have a tremendous collection of Seventh-day Adventist children's books. We have tried to be faithful in providing our children with "sound" reading material.

My 10-year old son and I were talking last night about a SDA book we have in our library called "Let's Talk About Giants" by Everett E. Beddoe, as told to Frances Sorensen, published by Pacific Press Publishing Association in 1966. The book has many full-page pictures of giant chairs, cups, hands, etc designed to create an indelible impression on a young child's mind. Ironically there is not a single Bible verse quoted in it, however there are a number of pictures of smiling children holding Bibles -- "Doug Batchelor style". The inference is that all of what is being taught here is straight from the Bible.


quote:

Chapter 1 - The First Giant
"Under the tall trees of Eden lay a giant man. The Creator had just formed him out of clay."
"The giant, Adam, sprang to his feet and began to walk with his Creator through the Garden of Eden."
"Adam stood twice as tall as most men now living."
"Then the Creator caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep. He took part of Adam's body and created a giant women as beautiful and perfect as the giant man."
"Angels visited Adam and Eve. The Creator often talked over His plans with the giant pair. He told them they would someday have children, perfect like themselves. One day the earth would be filled with a race of giants."

Chapter 4 - How Big Is a Giant
"If a giant the size of Adam should come into one of our towns or cities today, what would he wear?"
"Remember that Adam stood more than twice as tall as men of our time. God knew that was the best size for a man to be."
"A six-foot man lives in a house with eight- or ten-foot ceilings. Adam would need a twenty-foot ceiling."
"A giant's bed must be twice as long and twice as wide as our large beds are now."
"A man of Adam's size would weigh more than eight men would weigh today."
"In South Dakota a lady grew such large potatoes one year that one of them made a full meal for her family -- truly giant potatoes. At La Sierra, California, a man raised a cauliflower that weighed many times what ordinary cauliflowers weigh. He dedicated it to the Lord and brought it to Sabbath School for everyone to see."
"God allows us to enjoy a rare sight of these giant fruits and vegetables so that we may remember that long-ago time when the giant Adam lived in Eden."




Throughout this entire book there is not a single Bible verse!

Now if you had been a child attending Sabbath School that week, wouldn't you have been impressed! This kind of "miracle logic" is what gives credence to the Seventh-day Adventist belief system. No other denomination has this "truth". Truly the Seventh-day Adventist Church is blessed to have the "Pen of Inspiration"!

And all the above is based on another myth of Ellen White's.
See http://www.preparingforeternity.com/sr/sr02.htm


quote:

"He was more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and was well proportioned. His features were perfect and beautiful. His complexion was neither white nor sallow, but ruddy, glowing with the rich tint of health. Eve was not quite as tall as Adam. Her head reached a little above his shoulders. She, too, was noble, perfect in symmetry, and very beautiful." Story of Redemption, page 21




With "inside information" like this, who wouldn't want to be a Seventh-day Adventist? It creates such a sensory overload for young children that the "evidence" is compelling indeed! After all, aren't children supposed to be able to trust the material that their parents tell them is truth?

Gilbert Jorgensen
Wooliee
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

What you wrote about our spirits being brought to life eternal when we are born again has made so much sense to me this morning. My spirit is lifted!

I have been with dying patients, and the experience is so sacred and holy and it takes on new meaning to know that when they have been born again their spirits go to be with God and live on unencumbered by their earthly bodies. It does deny the whole reality of being born again to say that spirit only equals breath, and I can see that so clearly now.

I remember a discussion thread last summer about the Adventist belief of annihilationism, and I totally believed that and didn't want to let it go. I'm starting to see it differently now. The thing that is so striking to me is how God has taken me by the hand and said, "It is okay that you do not have all of the answers, because I do." Slowly but surely I am letting go of my need to control everything and have my life wrapped up in a pretty little package. Now I am seeing things that I have never seen before, and it is exciting to know God and learn who HE is from HIS Holy Spirit, and not some church doctrine that I have automatically believed all my life. As an Adventist I put so many limitations on God, and I know that is not unique to only Adventists, but it is my personal experience and I can see it so clearly now.

Lynne mentioned how hard it is to put into words our experiences as an Adventists. It is very hard for me to do that. But I have found freedom in Christ, and that is not hard for me to put into words.

Blessings,
Julie
Ric_b
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy. I agree with you that soul sleep is a heretical doctrine with strong implications. But I am not sure that believing that doctrine means someone can't be a Christian (which is what your post sounded like to me).
Belvalew
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric, after knowing several SDA's who were also Christians I can only say that soul sleep is a thief of the assurance God intended for his people to have.

When my father closed his eyes in death he had a slight, knowing smile on his face. I have a friend who is a nurse who has cared for many people during their last moments on earth. I told her about my father's smile (I was trying to keep an Adventist perspective and explain that smile, you see). She told me she had seen that ethereal smile many times herself and told me of a day that a man had been brought into the Emergency in the throes of a heart attack. The agony was etched on his face. She and a doctor were rushing the gurney toward the wall to get all of the instrumentation hooked up when a beautiful smile passed over the man's face. When they hooked up the heart monitor he was flat-line. The doctor she was working with was not Adventist but was a Christian, and when my friend asked him about the smile he said, "You have just seen the face of a man looking into the face of God."

It didn't take much wrestling for me to give up the notion of soul sleep. All I had to do was remember my father's smile and my friend's story.
Lynne
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was my undertanding, and what I was taught in the Adventist church, was that when I closed my eyes at death, I would wake up immediately after. There was no hopelessness in this to me. If I go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning, do I know anything about how many hours I slept? Thus, I believed the same way as other Christians, minus the doctrine.

However, the doctrine itself is not Christian, it isn't from Christ. Therefore I was believing something that was a lie.

This doctrine is meant by Satan to remove or eliminate the Holy Spirit just as the doctrine of keeping the Sabbath day. We cannot keep the Holy Spirit in us if we are only flesh and breath. Our spirits (known as breath/not separate), collectively are natural and we then relate more to the animals and to the unsaved. I related better to the feelings of animals which helped me to be a sensitive vegetarian. I still care about about animals, but it is different. It all worked out so logically in Adventism as the Darwin scientific theology makes sense to some unbelievers.

However, I think that no prophet could ever be clever enough to think all this up. But the prophet who passes these false teachings on to believers will go to the same place as the devil.

I'm thankful for Jesus, the Holy Spirit and to be saved now.



Ric_b
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva, you have captured well the issue with so many SDA heresies. They rob Christians of assurance. It isn't, at least in my opinion, that they exclude people from being Christian. But rather it is about the impact that they have on the life of the believer. The fear, hopelessness, and continual sense of defeat. That is why the true rest in Jesus in so amazing. I just wish that I could express that better to the SDAs that I know. Even as an "Evangelical SDA" who thought that I was firmly rooted in grace alone, I didn't know that peace and rest that I experience now. I know I was a Christian then, so I am certain that there are many Christian there now too. But they are shackled in ways that they don't even realize.
Jeremy
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"However, I think that no prophet could ever be clever enough to think all this up."

I agree--in fact, Ellen's brain/mental problems are even better proof that she could not have come up with everything herself and put it all together like that. In other words, her problems are proof that it is not her problems that are responsible for her writings! To claim that they are would be like saying that an explosion is the cause of orderly design. Brain damage does not cause such a clever, intricate system of deception. The fact is she was taught by demons, as God's Word says in 1 Timothy 4. Satan is the one who designed Adventism to be a very subtle, dangerous, and deceptive false religon.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on February 26, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Jeremy, Belva, Lynne, and Rick. Even though I know there are Christians who believe in soul sleep, I also know that the doctrine as taught by Adventists also impacts who Jesus really is.

There are evangelical Christians besides Adventists who believe in "soul sleep", but they have a different underlying understanding of the human spirit. The thing that makes Adventist soul sleep (and Jehovah's Witnesses also) so dangerous is that it assumes humans are only body plus breath. They deny that we have spirits that can be dead or alive apart from the body and which know Jesus. This belief seriously changes who the incarnate Jesus really wasóand it impacts what is meant by His being sinless. It also impacts what our own sin is.

Praise God for teaching us in His time.
Colleen
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am catching up on this thread, as Jeremy said there have been a whole lot of different themes stated on this long thread. While I agree with Ric_b about soul sleep not being necessarily a salvation issue, I want to add to some points Jeremy made in his post about the spirit.

When Adam sinned, he died spiritually, and his physical body started its decline. But this issue about the spirit dying is extremely important. Because of the fall, we all were born spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins. Paul, in Romans 8 says that the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead also resurrected our dead souls.

Adventism, (as well as many other groups) emphasize that man can exercise free-will with regard to salvation. Jackob posted a very important article by R.C. Sproul about Pelagianism which is archived now, but here it is again www.modernreformation.org/rc01pelagian.htm
This is a very important key issue. Because if we inherited Adam's sinful nature and his spiritual death, meaning that his as well as our spirit is completely dead in trespasses and sins, then how is SDA free will (and they don't believe we have spirits), or any other type of free will able to be exercised if the problem is that we need a resurrected spirit to be born again and be saved? This is why the doctrine of the spirit is so important, because without a proper understanding of this, it is difficult to see how a person can be born again.

Stan
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,
I finally had an "AHA" moment. To be born again we need to have a spirit to be resurrected. It finally makes some sense to me. Thank you so much.
Diana
Jeremy
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Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Jesus says that our spirit must be born of God or we cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3), and Adventism says that we don't even have a spirit!

I would say there's quite a problem there.

Jeremy
Lori
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Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The creation story, itself, demonstrates the differences between the spirit and the body.

Spirit--Gen 1:27 " So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." The word created is the Hebrew word <bara>. <Bara> means created out of nothing.

What is God? "God is spirit." John 4:22

So what part of man was created in the image of God---the spirit!


Notice: This "part" of man which was created <bara> in the image of God was created in "plural" (The male and female spirit were created <bara> at the same time.) This "part" of male and female existed BEFORE the "other part".)

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Body--Gen 2:7 "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living being." (God breathed the spirit into the body and the body came to life!)

Formed is the Hebrew word <yatsar> which means created from existing materials.

The body was created from the earth--existing material.

Riverfonz
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Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points Lori.

Diana,
I liked your AHA moment above. I have had many of them including yesterday on another thread Ric_b posted an article on monergistic sanctification, and I finally decided how valid this concept of sanctification is (see the "Insights..." thead for more info).

Another big AHA moment for me was about one year ago while reading Colleen's article in Proclamation from Sept 04 where she laid out this doctrine in the clearest possible way. It dawned on me that when Adam sinned, and when God promised him that he would die, it was his spirit that died immediately. As both Jeremy and Colleen have pointed out above, the whole salvation doctrine of how one is born again is tied up in this basic doctrine of the spirit of man. The reason I re-posted Jackob's article above by R.C. Sproul ties into this so basically.

In that article posted above, Sproul quotes J.I. Packer as saying that contrary to popular opinion, it was the issue of man's free-will that was the very basic teaching of controversy, even more than justification by faith alone. According to Martin Luther, the spirit we inherited from Adam is totally dead, as dead as any corpse in the cemetery. Therefore, it takes a total miracle of God to resurrect a dead spirit or soul--the same power that raised Jesus from the dead as Romans 8 indicates. According to Luther, evangelical theology stands or falls on this concept.

However, it is not only Adventism that misunderstands this concept. The majority of evangelical Christianity thinks that are souls are not totally dead, and that with God's help, man cooperates with God in salvation, but it makes man ultimately responsible for his salvation, instead of Reformed and Lutheran Christianity, which makes God solely responsible for our salvation. That is why the implications of this spirit doctrine are so important, because it strikes right at the heart of the basis of salvation--that is a miracle takes place and we are born from above!

Without an accurate doctrine of the spirit, then the whole concept of what salvation is becomes muddled.

Stan
Belvalew
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Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beautifully stated, Lori! Body made of something (dust), soul/spirit made from nothing "In the Image of God."

In other parts of scripture we are taught that the seen world (dust) is passing away, or unreal, but that the unseen world (spirit) is eternal.

Please forgive me for not providing supporting texts. I am presently an invalid and cannot go searching around for my concordance.
Melissa
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Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Christians I know who believe in soul sleep, do not believe in a ceasing to exist. One pastor explained it like that dreamy sleep phase where you aren't really conscious of what's going on around you, but you may have activity going on in your brain via dreams etc. It is very different than the SDA soul sleep as he described it.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, exactly. When Christians who believe in humans having a spirit also believe in"soul sleep", it's quite a different thing from what Adventists believe. They do not believe in annhilation as Adventists do.

This fact is another demonstration of the confusion generated by Adventists using the same words as Christianity. Adventists are not going to tell evangelical scholars, whom they want to impress, that to them soul sleep means extinction. Instead they allow the misunderstanding to persist, and once again the Christian community begins defending Adventist doctrine without really understanding what they're defending.

Colleen

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