| Author | Message | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2005  |
Colleen wrote about the FAF Event: "One attendee spoke to me in the hallway and made such a profound comment. This woman has been "out" over 10 years and is herself well-versed in human dynamics; she is a therapist by profession. She said to me that the reason those who have left and found Jesus find themselves in unresolvable conflict with those who have stayed and remain committed to Adventism is that the conflict is actually "kingdom against kingdom". It is not merely a matter of a disagreement; it is light against dark." My response: I wasn't able to attend the weekend event, but reading about it really encourages me. This paragraph from Colleen's post just pierced right through to the center of my heart! I wish I could find a therapist or a counsellor in my area who could help me navigate this "kingdom against kingdom" phenomenon. Some days I'm not very good at representing the Light and I feel like my husband is being repelled instead of drawn into it. I would be very interested in learning more of what the presenters shared about living with Adventist family members. If any of you wish to convey their comments on this forum, I would be extremely grateful. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 288 Registered: 5-2004 |
HW, I have told people here a bit about my situation before, so this may be a repeat. But I have a couple years of experience being in a relationship with an avid SDA. I didn't even know about SDA beliefs, except that they went to church on Sundays, until I enrolled at Walla Walla College. I met Mike (my future husband) and we were friends for a few years. He was hard-core, avid SDA, his parents are SDA schoolteachers. His entire extended family are SDA. (Family reunions are held at an SDA campmeeting in Maine or Vermont somewhere.) At any rate, he and I became closer at the same time as we butted heads about theology. I was always talking about relationship with Chirst, he was always talking about theology. We spoke different languages, basically. Even in theological discussions he would quote things he thought were from the bible, and I would ask where in the world that came from... in final analysis, it was usually EGW, not biblical, and I would point out that he had EGW so confused with the Bible that he didn't even know what came from where anymore. (Yeah, that went over like a lead balloon.) At any rate, about a year and a half after we met, Mike and I went to Malaysia for a summer relief agency trip. While we were in Hong Kong on the way back, we finally found something that I had been saying that piqued Mike's interest... and that was that God loves us NO MATTER WHAT. He loves us unconditionally, and we absolutely can not be good enough to deserve that love. We will always fail, which he agreed with. He felt like a failure no matter how "good" an SDA he was. So he finally broke down and asked Jesus to come into his heart. It was odd to me that he had been in church all his life and hadn't ever heard about a relationship with Christ. But that is what finally caught his interest. We started dating, continued arguing about religion, and a few weeks after we graduated college, we got married. His parents hit the ceiling, saying that within 5 years we'd be sorry we married. They were unhappy about it, but cordial publicly. At about that same time, the SDA church that we were attending off and on in Portland split up because the pastor was too "liberal". (He sent his tithe somewhere besides the church because he felt led to, then preached about it at church.) He started a little church with the SDAs that left that church. I called it an "SDA halfway house". It was made up of mostly broken, confused, and largely guilt-ridden SDAs who were searching for some light. My husband was still insistent he was SDA, but he was definitely searching for more in his relationship with Christ. He began to attend a non-denominational men's small group. One of the guys was a former SDA, and over the next year or so, he was able to present Mike with the idea of the New Covenant, and explain the fallacy of Adventism in a way I couldn't. I was too close to the situation, too emotionally involved, for Mike to really hear any truth from me. It took a fresh voice, that didn't have anything to gain from "conversion" for him to really hear. I always thought it was strange that Mike took any of my questionings about SDA as a personal attack. I finally realized that being SDA so much a part of his core identity, that questioning the SDA tenets shook his core. Not only that, he felt no assurance of salvation, so questioning EGW or her precepts shook the wobbly "salvation post" he was clinging to. Looking back, he was only able to hear the positive things from me. He was only able to hear about the joy and peace I found in Christ, the passion I had for my relationship with Christ. It took a long time, but that is what grabbed his attention. Only the Holy Spirit could pierce the legalism. As far as the theology etc. he couldn't ever fully hear what I had to say on that. Probably because he had heard for years that non-SDAs were decieved. Also because he felt personally threatened by the thought of the SDA beliefs being questioned. It really did take an outside person praying with him, helping nurture him in his faith at the same time as he gently peeled the disguise off of the SDA belief system. My husband hasn't gone to an SDA church in about 7 years now, but it stil haunts him. A few years ago he announced out of the blue that he was going to ask the church to take his name off the books, which he did. Then just about 4 months ago he walked up to the baptismal at our church during a baptismal service and aske dto be baptized. He said that he had never considered getting rebaptized before, but was suddenly convicted that he should (He had been baptized in the SDA church along with most of his class in 3rd grade because it was expected.) Like I say, though, SDAism still follows us. All his family is SDA, and they are pretty sure he is deceived, and probably many of them think I could be the devil myself for "leading him away." The family reunions are held at SDA campmeeting so we don't go to them. They all live on the other side of the country and see eachother regularly, and we haven't been out there for years.-- We do keep in regular contact with his parents, but when we see each other, they don't have much to say to each other because their conversations used to all about Adventism... the church, their work at the schools, the relatives that built the "EGW nature walk" at some SDA memorial site... They just don't really know how to talk to each other. It is a little sad to see. It is like living with a ghost. I can feel it, and it isn't even my ghost. At any rate, I remember well the feeling of frustration, that almost tangible wall between Mike and I, that we lived with for so many years. I just prayed and prayed for him to understand... I wanted so much for him to feel the joy of being a Christian, the hope, the peace. It wasn't easy. I don't envy you your position. I am praying for you and your family, that God will break through the darkness and reach your husband, and that He would send someone else to talk to your husband about the truth as well, if he can't hear it well enough from you. Hang in there... and if you want to vent, let me know, i can give you my email and you can bounce your frustrations off me anytime, or email me your prayer requests. -tanya- | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 163 Registered: 11-2005 |
Tanya - that is a beautiful testimony. Thatnk you for sharing it with us. It is so true! Gilbert | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2321 Registered: 3-2004  |
Tanya, Thanks for sharing your wonderful, encouraging testimony with us. I will continue praying for each of you. Diana | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2005 |
Kingdom against kingdom? Yes, it's absolutely true. I remember what Colleen said about considering the law eternal: only God is eternal. When adventists believe that the law is eternal, they choose another God, THE LAW. They worship at it's feet, they are in the kingdom of the Law, their King is the Law, shortly, the SABBATH. The christians believe that Jesus is eternal, they worship Jesus, Jesus is their King. They belong to the kingdom of Jesus. When the rich young man approached Jesus his entire allegiance was to the Law. When Jesus demanded from him to sell all he has, he refused to obey because his master, THE LAW, never demanded something like this from him. Jesus sought to turn him to the real and only Master, Lord and King. "Follow me after you have sold all you have". What's the difference between allegiance to the law and to Jesus? To follow Jesus means to follow a living, and moving target, to have a moving point of reference. It means He may demand from me what He never demanded from the rich young man, and He may not in my entire life demand to sell all I have. He has a plan with everyone, and for His glory He can guide us in different ways, on different paths. This is not the case with the law. If Jesus words toward the rich young man "sell all you posess" it's a law, many of us, including myself are guilty of breaking the law, because we still have many good things in our possesion. The law it's an fixed target, and what is law for one, is the law for everyone. You can live your entire life, obeying the law as the rich young man, and never obey Jesus. Also with the fixed rule of the law you will measure everyone, and judge everyone after your practice of obeying the law. As an adventist I judged everyone according to my keeping of the law. If they don't obey this, or that rule, they are not converted, or... everyone can finished the idea. With Jesus the entire picture changes. People can follow Jesus as He leads them. Of course, He doesn't lead them in a sinful lifestyle, He leads them to bring glory to Him. And His glory is revealed in different ways. For many the glory of God is revealed through their life, for martirs through their death, but what matter is that God takes the glory. You know the story of Ananias and Sapphira. They don't pray what to do with the money received after they sold their possession. Because other christians under the guiding of the Holy Spirit had given every penny to the church, they tried to imitate the behaviour, what seemed to them that is the will of God for that day. They, not being guided by the Holy Spirit, give only a part of the money, giving the false impression that they are also guided by the Holy Spirit who prompted them to give all they have. This is the problem with the law: trying to put your life in harmony with the law, you end up in hypocrisy. Peter said so clearly about their possession: "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control?" With other words, there is no rule, or law to impose you to give everything. If the Holy Spirit is not moving you to act like other people, you are not under any obligation. You are not under the law, what is God's plan for someone, it's not His plan for other. You must obey the Holy Spirit Perhaps I wrote to much, just one example of thinking like and adventist: someone accused me that because many adventists renounced the sabbath I think that this is the path to follow. I guess that he follow the General Conference and it's unfaillible voice..... | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1087 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tealeaves, I am curious, is the "half-way house" you mentioned in Portland OR by any chance Bob Bretsch's Christian Growth Center? The tithe dispute sounds like his story. Bob Bretsch was our pastor for many years at College View SDA Church in Lincoln, NE. I still get his Christian Growth Center weekly updates. They still meet on Saturdays, but I never see the word "Sabbath" in his e-mails, it's always "Saturday". And some of the activities listed for Saturday's don't sound very Sabbath-like in a traditional sense. I wonder if Bob has begun to drift away from SDA doctrine, but still meets on Saturday out of tradition or if it's still kind of a SDA half-way house. If anyone has any info I would love to know. I have close relatives who respected Bob Bretsch a lot. If he has moved away from SDA doctrine it would be interesting to see what my relatives would make of that. Chris | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 414 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thank you Jackob for your thoughtful post! I'd never understood the point of 'the rich young ruler' so clearly as you wrote it. How true that when we follow Jesus instead of the 'law' we no are no longer able to neatly 'judge' the people around us! We can't even 'judge' ourselves in the same way. What we do for Jesus is accounted a totally different way than what we do as measured against a static law. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 400 Registered: 1-2003  |
Chris, I was just looking at your picture and you need to change it. I would never have recognized you at the FAF weekend if I went by the picture.  I was taken by surprise when Stan who I was sitting with in the row behind you pointed you out to me. I was very blessed by your testimony and thank God that I was able to meet you in person. Afterward when some of us were having pie I was delighted to meet your wife and daughter, you are very blessed to have such a family. Your youngest daughter has the gleem in her eye of an IMP. I had a lot of fun talking with her and you older daughter is great and i wish she was in my class. Anyway it was great to meet you and talk a little. I've known your sister for a few years and been blessed by her wisdom and spirit of gentleness, yet speaking truth as God works in and through her. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 289 Registered: 5-2004 |
Chris, Yes, we are speaking of the same situation. As you know, there was a lot more to it than that, I think the tithing issue was just one of the most noticeable to the church at large, and may have been the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. We know Bob and Bev Bretsch pretty well. he and his wife run a ministry in Portland called Portland Kids International, and we are involved with that. Bob and Bev are definitely no longer SDA. They are tried and true faith-based Christians now. I bet he wouldn't mind talking to people about why that is, if you wanted to ask him. I have the suspicion that the Christian Growth Center meets Saturdays for the comfort of a few fringe SDAs that go there, and because it has become habit. but I can't absolutely verify that. We haven't gone to that church for years now. I do believe that some of the pastoral staff currently at the Christian Growth Center are not and never were SDA. Small world, eh? -tanya- | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1088 Registered: 7-2003 |
Richard, It was good to meet you as well! You look much more like Santa in your picture! I know I need to update my photo. I was in my mid to late 20's when it was taken and I was still a SDA. I'm now a decade older and a bit less, shall we say, "conservative" in my appearance. I don't think anyone recognized me. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1089 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tanya, yes it is a small world. I'd LOVE for Bob and Bev to sit down with my in-laws for an afternoon. They used to be pretty good friends so maybe it would have an impact. But maybe not......leaving Adventism seems to end friendships in a hurry. Chris | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2005 |
Mary, I don't thinked about judging ourselves, but yes, this is very important. Because comparing to other people can cause us to be confused about the leading of God in our lives, which can result in pride or despair. God bless | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 303 Registered: 10-2005 |
Honestwitness, Kingdom against kingdom makes sounds right to me. For years, I've honestly seen other Christians, non-Adventists, as looking Satanic. Really, really Satanic. Now I can look at the same pictures and people and see Jesus in them. Wow. I was really living in darkness. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3421 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, what an awesome post. I've also never see the rich young ruler's issue so clearly as you expressed it. What very good insights! Colleen | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 290 Registered: 5-2004 |
I think the determinant for whether an SDA will listen to a former SDA about their experiences and beliefs lies in their level of fear (of change) as compared to their level of desire for true spirituality. If their passion for God is higher and stronger than their passion for theology then they might listen. If their fear of being wrong is stronger than their passion for Christ, they'll run the other direction. That is how it seems to me, anyway. And since EGW bred and taught fear through most of what she said, there are a lot of non-listening SDAs. -tanya- | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1104 Registered: 10-2004  |
CHRIS! That's a totally different person! Are they really both you?! Hehe. I guess that shows how leaving Adventism can change a person. When you said "less conservative," though, I was afraid we were gonna see either a bald head or green and purple spiked hair, with tattoos and nose rings. ;-) Welcome back to the forum, btw. It's great to have you posting again. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 21, 2006) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1093 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeremy, Thanks for the welcome back. I don't have any nose rings, but if you look really closely you'll see I have a ring in each ear. Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 402 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris was that just one in each ear?? Richard PS: love that "spikey" hair. I'm glad you changed the picture. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Chris, I like your new picture too. I wouldn't have recognized you as "the Chris" if Stan hadn't introduced us . By the way, your testimony was awesome. It really touched my heart. Grace | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1301 Registered: 7-2003  |
Okay, I don't get it....literally. The only picture I "see" of Chris is the same one I've always seen.... So, what's up with that....or is this mystery "new picture" posted somewhere else? |
